ADVICE TO NICE GUYS

[GPSGuided]

It's called empathy.

Yes, but only if one is aware of the situation. There'll be many times when I am not even aware of it. Yet again, I'm not shaped like a gorilla and have a regularly threatening posture. As said, most people and most times are only minding one's own business (often on a smartphone). As requested by the earlier discussion of look and stare at others, how is one able to know the other party is feeling fidgety and uncomfortable? Maybe the solution is for everyone to walk and play with their smartphone...

[Nuts]

It's not hard. If walking in a group with someone who expressed these concerns I doubt many would skip to an affront to their manhood
It would be enough to have someone (anyone) upset by the act of creepy staring? Assuming it was deliberate.

I don't really get the 'advice', should it be 'advice to guys who want to be nice, even nicer/do the right thing'?
It doesn't sound like there are many people here to worry about. The 'old school' comments are understandable. Are they 'scary'?
The same person who taught me not to stare also opened doors for ladies.

There's been a lot of upheaval and transition across the board, if 'how to act' is hard to understand (especially for those expected to change or grow), it's understandable to see any given situation as part of a whole:

Elanora Heights Public School, on Sydney's northern beaches, announced the no-clapping policy in its latest newsletter.

"If you've been to a school assembly recently, you may have noticed our students doing silent cheers," it said.

"Instead of clapping, the students are free to punch the air, pull excited faces and wriggle about on the spot.

"The practice has been adopted to respect members of our school community who are sensitive to noise.

[RonK]

Courtesy gone mad. Rather than minding one's own business, now we need to assess other's reaction to our presence, whether they are fidgety and whether it's due to our presence.

Yes - so when I walk down the street I'm supposed to continuously assess other pedestrians for signs that I'm intimidating them.

Perhaps we should have segregated streets - men on one side, women on the other.

Some people really need to get a grip.
Paranoia is treatable I believe.

[hairypanic]

Courtesy gone mad. Rather than minding one's own business, now we need to assess other's reaction to our presence, whether they are fidgety and whether it's due to our presence.

Yes - so when I walk down the street I'm supposed to continuously assess other pedestrians for signs that I'm intimidating them.

Perhaps we should have segregated streets - men on one side, women on the other.

Some people really need to get a grip.
Paranoia is treatable I believe.

The post was about a man following a lady around several corners. This has gone from having empathy to segregated streets, may as well shut this thread now if this is what it has degraded to

[taipan821]

Yes - so when I walk down the street I'm supposed to continuously assess other pedestrians for signs that I'm intimidating them.

.

It depends, are you walking down the street to help the little old lady, or walking down the street with police to deal with a problem of the drugged kind?

sorry, but I know the feeling, sometime I try to be friendly, other times I don't care, argue with the police I'm doing a job. (sorry for replying admins, real world experience)

[GPSGuided]

Fact of the matter is, if a person is concerned he/she is being followed, no amount of faster or slowing walk by the other party would help. Anything that's unnatural would just add to the intensity. To alleviate, one needs to truly walk away from the scene. To me, this kind of advice is like the advice on picking an urinal in a toilet. For normal people, it's obvious. For weirdos, no amount of flagging will alter their behaviour. What's more important is to learn to be defensive. If one is worried, the most effective solution is to know how to extricate oneself from the situation. And this applies for both women and men.

[GPSGuided]

The post was about a man following a lady around several corners.

It was a post about a man walking in the same direction as another around several corners. Maybe the wiser things to do would be...

Man: Hi, didn't know we are neighbours. My name is XYZ and I think we need better street lighting in the neighbourhood...

[hairypanic]

Haha, yeah and follow it with 'have you heard of bushwalking.com, they know the answers to all lifes problems'

[GPSGuided]

Haha, yeah and follow it with 'have you heard of bushwalking.com, they know the answers to all lifes problems'

... May I give you the thread link too? I've read it.

[puredingo]

And her reply..."well I wasn't scared before but now I'm TERRIFIED!!!!"

[GPSGuided]

And her reply..."well I wasn't scared before but now I'm TERRIFIED!!!!"

Should have shaved and put on that nice shirt and tie in the morning ...

[geoskid]

It's not hard. If walking in a group with someone who expressed these concerns I doubt many would skip to an affront to their manhood
It would be enough to have someone (anyone) upset by the act of creepy staring? Assuming it was deliberate.

I don't really get the 'advice', should it be 'advice to guys who want to be nice, even nicer/do the right thing'?
It doesn't sound like there are many people here to worry about. The 'old school' comments are understandable. Are they 'scary'?
The same person who taught me not to stare also opened doors for ladies.

There's been a lot of upheaval and transition across the board, if 'how to act' is hard to understand (especially for those expected to change or grow), it's understandable to see any given situation as part of a whole:

Elanora Heights Public School, on Sydney's northern beaches, announced the no-clapping policy in its latest newsletter.

"If you've been to a school assembly recently, you may have noticed our students doing silent cheers," it said.

"Instead of clapping, the students are free to punch the air, pull excited faces and wriggle about on the spot.


"The practice has been adopted to respect members of our school community who are sensitive to noise.

Sure, I get that Suz had an experience that unsettled her and wanted to share. Name of the thread doesn't matter a damn.
What I also get is a man that is not like that should not feel threatened . But watch them come out of the woodwork!
This is tame! I get around and have come across MRA's and they are weak *&%$#! that have no idea (lack of awareness)

I get Maddogs point that (can I take liberty here) not all fear is rational. But so *&%$#! what! It is real to the person feeling the fear!

The question becomes - Can I get my own awareness together enough so that I can see what others are feeling, and contribute to a solution. If one can do that - there is a world stage waiting.
If not, well, don't .

[north-north-west]

Sure, I get that Suz had an experience that unsettled her and wanted to share. Name of the thread doesn't matter a damn.
What I also get is a man that is not like that should not feel threatened . But watch them come out of the woodwork!
This is tame! I get around and have come across MRA's and they are weak *&%$#! that have no idea (lack of awareness)

I get Maddogs point that (can I take liberty here) not all fear is rational. But so *&%$#! what! It is real to the person feeling the fear!

The question becomes - Can I get my own awareness together enough so that I can see what others are feeling, and contribute to a solution. If one can do that - there is a world stage waiting.
If not, well, don't .

*loud applause*

Although I must say, with regard to the MRAs - many do have a very good idea, and they like it. They're the sort of gutless wonders who can only make themselves feel bigger by belittling and degrading those they perceive to be weaker.

Fortunately, most people aren't like that, male or female.

[Lindsay]

..

[Nuts]

MRA. I had to google it, then recalled hearing the term from a radio conversation, someone ranting abt the family courts...

By the same token, if they were concerned enough over any particular incident to find themselves yelling advice on a BW forum they should be afforded a modicum of empathy? I find myself treating most people, especially on here, responsively. Not ideal, eye 4 eye can sometimes be at odds with empathy, always fallible. Also, I imagine, far less perfect than even that much effort could be made sound on a forum where some can sound just perfect ;
btw, to me, given it introduces the response, the title of this topic matters a great deal. That said I hope Suz sea the conversation for what it is, to me, separate from her concerns.

[Stroller]

Its not that a stare is a threat so much as a stare is perceived as threatening but you wouldn't know because its unlikely that anyone who was stronger than you ever stared at you in that way.

You see, for all the male on male violence ( which happens because men are actually more violent creatures than women), men are generally better matched to each other than women against men. For all our mental strength, women are on the whole significantly physically weaker than men. Couple that with the facts that women are more often attacked by men than other women and that women are more often attacked in sex attacks than men and you should begin to appreciate that fact that women are actually more vulnerable than men so is it any wonder that women feel more vulnerable than you think they should. Women ARE more vulnerable.

Having encountered a somewhat similar experience than that described in the OP in fairly recent times and whilst on a bike tour on a remote stretch of road (once in Australia and once in india) - I believe her response is completely natural.

Of course i've encountered many negatively charged experiences with men over my lifetime (as have most women), for the sole reason that i'm a woman and for no other. And i mean sexually charged negative experiences all the way down to verbal harassment in the work place (before the days when it was outlawed), sexual intimidation in the workplace (even after its became outlawed) and so on and so forth. And we haven't even left the country yet.

If you refuse to appreciate the vulnerability of women, there's not a lot we can do about that but don't expect us to stand about nodding politely in your presence.

And you think that putting on boxing gloves and heading off to learn how to swing a punch is the answer for all of us? Those teenage girls can show backbone because they haven't lived yet. Given them a few more decades and see how fearless they are.

[Giddy_up]

I guess one of the quirks of the OP is that she wasn't alone. There was a reasonable group of people at the camp so it's unusual to feel so uncomfortable given that fact, also the voyeur was accompanied as well with that person being approachable as a discussion was had about the next destination. Interesting thread all the same.


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[Stroller]

Fair point but you can still feel unnerved by being stared at. I think she just needed to vent.

[Nuts]

edited: sorry jdeks I didn't mean your post wasn't worth leaving.
( unless one of these guys playing moderator deleted it..)

[DarrenM]

Of course i've encountered many negatively charged experiences with men over my lifetime (as have most women), for the sole reason that i'm a woman and for no other. And i mean sexually charged negative experiences all the way down to verbal harassment in the work place (before the days when it was outlawed), sexual intimidation in the workplace (even after its became outlawed) and so on and so forth. And we haven't even left the country yet.

If you refuse to appreciate the vulnerability of women, there's not a lot we can do about that but don't expect us to stand about nodding politely in your presence.

Well said, and if you have discussed this topic honestly and openly with female friends you realise just how consistently widespread it is. Blokes don't need to get all fired up about their rights as though they are going to suddenly lose man credibility. If you can't separate the hard done by ultra feminist from the average woman in society that simply hopes for a little equality and her expectation of feeling safe in general, then IMO you're completely ignorant.

In my local area, I know very few women who would walk down the street alone at night.....men roam freely without feeling sexual intimidation. Why is that? I can guarantee it's not a simple perceived threat. I've witnessed it many times and have stepped in on several occasions when blokes think its ok to get abusive towards a female because she didn't accept his advances.

You might think there are no similarities from a dark street to the group situation in broad daylight but it no doubt stems from years of dealing with it and therefore seems silly or an overreaction to some.

Interestingly, I walked to my local shops the other night and happened to turn down an alley behind a female and was very aware of how uncomfortable she was from the way she started to walk faster (awkward in high heels). A quick disarming "Hi" and a smile while making sure my continued momentum gave her an indication that I was on my way and wasn't a threat. It was the least I could do and I'll do it every time because it's considerate.

There are so many factors based on how and where we grew up and what our local areas are like that determine our attitudes towards these types of topics.

[north-north-west]

And you think that putting on boxing gloves and heading off to learn how to swing a punch is the answer for all of us?

It takes a lot of intensive training and practice to learn effective self-defence - and even well-trained people will sometimes freeze in an unexpected situation. You really have no idea how you will react when under attack until it happens. And there's no guarantee you'll react the same way the next time.

I have the training, knowledge and physical capability to kill with my bare hands, quite literally. I have very great doubts that I would be able to put any of that into effect if necessary.

[Giddy_up]

I think you're quite right NNW, being punched feels a little different and no training prepares you for it except being punched.


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[GPSGuided]

I have the training, knowledge and physical capability to kill with my bare hands, quite literally. I have very great doubts that I would be able to put any of that into effect if necessary.

I'll have to start to be fearful if I encounter single female walkers on Tassie tracks...

[north-north-west]

It's OK, I never throw the first punch.


Just the last one.

[GPSGuided]

Neck cracker!

[Lophophaps]

It's OK, I never throw the first punch.


Just the last one.

LOL! My instructors taught me to run backwards faster than the attacker runs forwards. I'm very good at this. More seriously, this is a very valid defence - walk away, be somewhere else, avoid the threat. But if it gets nasty, if in danger, go in hard, fast and with force proportionate to the threat. This can be difficult with multiple attackers, in which case deadly force is often unavoidable.

[zorro]

Political correctness, innuendo, suspicion, people with other agendas, bushwalking sure has changed. Recently while solo on the O.T. I found most people friendly and returned a " hello" but it seems one section of the community tends to treat everyone with suspicion and having such small minded attitudes, decided to share their disgusting little scenarios in the guest books, and generally putting down other people, spreading rumours. I think there are too many people in each others pockets bushwalking these days with no space to escape the general crowd. I also think traveling in groups of 8-10 pretty well breaks all the rules regarding noise, impact and consideration to other walkers. Just look at the guided groups in Tas. I say GET OVER IT and pull your head in.

[Lophophaps]

I've been bushwalking for rather a long time. Changes have occurred. Japara A-tents to flash tunnels and the like. Oily japara to Gore Tex. Campfires to stoves. A frame to H frame to internal frame packs. One constant has been the general friendliness of the bushwalkers. This is perhaps less so in places that more can visit, like the Overland Track. Some people - a small minority - do not have the experience to be aware of the bushwalking culture. In time it will come.

Like any place with humans, you get all kinds. Some immature people vandalise, which is a pity. I've cut grossly offensive pages out of log books and reported some people, who stupidly bragged of their spray painting. Dills. I just accept that the world is not perfect, and do what is necessary, softly softly if at all possible.

Only twice have I confronted people. Once we moved camp, manic camper. Another time I faced off a pack of drunken yobbos, and they backed off. Very scared I was, too many of them. It was night and my tent was closest to them. We moved some tents. Every other place I've visited I've felt safe, friendly meetings with many people, on the track or at camp. With no evidence at all I suggest that my experience is typical. A few bad apples and the rest really nice.

I see none of the adverse traits cited above. The acceptable party size depends on the time and place. A day walk near a capital city, say Royal NP, could have higher party numbers and be acceptable than a remote walk, say the South Coast Track. On my last visit to portion of the OLT there were guided walkers, and I could not pick them. They were quite unobtrusive, and I chatted to a guide for a while. He could have been me at that age, and probably many in this forum.

The OP had a simple situation and sought to apprise others. A good range of views has been posted, and I at least have learned a few things. This is how it should be.

[Happy Pirate]

Interesting thread.
It's funny. I'm sure we would ALL like to encourage more women to get out bush and particularly to brave the wilds alone.
And you'd have to be an idiot not to aknowledge that women hiking alone, generally, are fearful of and prone to much more harrassment and intimidation than solo men or groups.
And yet somehow, when a solo-hiking woman offers her genuine perspective (so rarely heard) her opinion has to be constantly argued against, contradicted, mansplained and finally hijacked by posts of ninja death-punches.
Thanks Guys,
kinda proves her point
Steve
(OK come at me;-))

[puredingo]

Yep, it's been a funny old thread alright. We've had some laughs, we've shed some tears, argued vehemently and conceded humbly and yet, in the wash up of our own understanding we leave doing what mankind has made its own distinguishable trait...disregard all other opinions and points of view because it's only OURS that really matters.

Stare on you crazy diamonds......