Is it necessary to filter water?

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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Xplora » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 6:13 am

tom_brennan wrote:
Xplora wrote:My partner is very sensitive to water giardia while other people are not (like me). These protozoa are carried by most native animals and where do they live and poop?

Source? (My bold)


Did you still want the source Tom? Here's a quick one. http://www.waterra.com.au/project-details/161
You can google more if you like. There are hundreds to read. I do not like living in a sterile environment either and it is good to get a bit of dirt in you to keep your immune system working but some of the bugs and parasites you can get from water do not care too much if you have a good immune system. Our bush hygiene is also very important because we do not want to be a stuck out there and sick. A few people have mentioned growing up on a farm or the like and relate that to a good immune system. That could be true but I live remote and do not come in contact with all those city cooties often. Usually I get a sore throat or a cold after going to a city. Maybe people in the cities have better immune systems because there is more contact with the bugs but their water is treated so there is less tolerance to protozoa. Who knows? I am not sure why the question was asked in the first place if a personal decision had already been made. Is it to convince those who want to treat their water there is no need? As long as it does not affect me, others can do what they please with their water.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Stroller » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 10:18 am

In my post i didn't relate my farm upraising to a better immune system. I do think i have a pretty good immune system but I know i'm not immune to bugs when they are there. My argument is that they are not there as much people say they are.

No one is tolerant to protozoa I think. If you get a bug like that in your system, you are going to get sick as far as I understand. That said, some people are more vulnerable than others to things like viruses in particular. When you are run down you are more vulnerable to them. But also some people do have natural immunity to things but i don't think protozoa comes into that category. There's no real way of knowing who has more immunity unless they've done a study on it.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Lophophaps » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 11:17 am

Xplorer and Stroller, two good posts. Thanks. I'm going to attempt a summary, and am most happy for this to be corrected.
1 Most wild water is fine to drink untreated.
2 Some wild water is not fine, mostly close to developments, including tracks and huts.
3 Some water cannot be treated - the quality is too poor.
4 Some people are more prone to catching sundry viruses and the like.
5 Being too sterile is not advisable.
6 Washing hands after touching a wide range of things is advised.

There's not a lot of detail as much is subjective and there's no science to say for sure. Comments on the above would be valued.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Snowzone » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 3:19 pm

Lophophaps wrote:2 Some wild water is not fine, mostly close to developments, including tracks and huts.
3 Some water cannot be treated - the quality is too poor.

2. Unless you go with a test kit you will never really know if its clean or not. Plus I think this is too broad a statement, you don't actually know whats upstream of anywhere unless you follow the water source all the way to the beginning.

3. What do you base too poor a quality on. When desperate I have treated some pretty bad looking water. Walkon and myself took water from a deer wallow on a walk last summer. Now I know he has some strange responses and well the ticks and uncontrolled movements have subsided but we're both still alive. :?
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Tortoise » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 4:03 pm

Snowzone wrote:
Lophophaps wrote:2 Some wild water is not fine, mostly close to developments, including tracks and huts.

2. Unless you go with a test kit you will never really know if its clean or not. Plus I think this is too broad a statement, you don't actually know whats upstream of anywhere unless you follow the water source all the way to the beginning.

True, but the practicality is that if an area is known for contamination (e.g. Macalister Springs), or if you check the map and find that the pristine-looking creek has a frequented camping spot upstream, I think it would be sensible for the average person to treat it.

As GPSG says, it's a matter of managing risks. Since moving to Tassie, I've become much more comfortable drinking untreated still water from tarns, pools etc, because of the absence of wild pigs etc, and the experience of many. But I'm still careful about the area I pick. Having seen a large amount of toilet paper, and associated faeces in world heritage areas, I don't assume that bushwalkers or anglers will have done the right thing.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby north-north-west » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 4:14 pm

Tortoise wrote:True, but the practicality is that if an area is known for contamination (e.g. Macalister Springs), or if you check the map and find that the pristine-looking creek has a frequented camping spot upstream, I think it would be sensible for the average person to treat it.


Is Mac Springs really that bad? I've never treated the water from there and never had trouble with it. Of course, I didn't walk in there while the cattle were up there regularly.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 7:24 pm

I've not really worried about viruses from water, you're more likely to get them from surfaces that other humans have contacted. I don't want to gamble with parasites, or protozoa. Everyone sets their own risk level, and their own "acceptable consequence" level. Even if the chance is remote, I want to eliminate it as much as possible, because I'm not willing to accept that consequence. But if you want to save weight and carry gastro-stop instead of a water treatment plan, by all means, go to it.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby GPSGuided » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 7:27 pm

Fortunately we have Medicare... :D
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby GRLillistone » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 7:59 pm

Filtering water through a Millbank filter requires no effort and yet it removes all sediment to provide me with clean, filtered water ready to purify by boiling or with chlorine tablets. It is small, light, has no working parts, is cleaned easily in the washing machine and will probably outlast me.
I take it on every trip.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby MrWalker » Fri 29 Jul, 2016 9:58 pm

I find this thread fascinating, since when I moved to Tasmania about 25 years ago, I was told that you could tell the visitors from the Tasmanians because real Tasmanians never carried extra water anywhere (except Freycinet), because you could always pick up fresh drinkable water from any stream anywhere.

Being a newcomer I carry my own water, although on rare occasions I have used fast running streams. Since I grew up in Adelaide I am resistant to almost anything in water anyway. :roll:
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Xplora » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:10 am

north-north-west wrote:
Tortoise wrote:True, but the practicality is that if an area is known for contamination (e.g. Macalister Springs), or if you check the map and find that the pristine-looking creek has a frequented camping spot upstream, I think it would be sensible for the average person to treat it.


Is Mac Springs really that bad? I've never treated the water from there and never had trouble with it. Of course, I didn't walk in there while the cattle were up there regularly.


There was a warning for Liver Fluke at MacSprings a while ago. Not sure it is current. This was also some time after the cattle were out.
I have filtered some pretty manky water with my MSR miniworks and never had a problem drinking it so any water can be treated with the right equipment. In the mountains we usually take a steri pen as the water is mostly clear of sediment. It is light and quick. I do admit that from time to time I drink the water untreated but my partner is more selective.
There is also some immune response to Giardia and possibly Crypto which you can google as well as I can but here is one study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88932/. This could account for those growing up on a farm drinking untreated water having more tolerance. Catching something could be like winning the lottery. Not had any success with that either. I do agree there is a greater chance of picking up something from a hut or a drop toilet. That is why we carry some alcohol wash or wipes.

Not related to water but related to parasites. The worms carried by your family dog will produce eggs that you can pick up while playing with it. These eggs are sticky and the only way to get them off is washing with soap. Alcohol does not do it. Once they hatch inside you they will search for a place to live and as you are not the host they will continue their search throughout your body looking for that nice little place. Wash your hands with soap after playing with your dog. I also cannot understand how people allow dogs to lick them on their face. Have you ever seen what you dog gets up to with its mouth. I watched one eat another's poop. Maybe I am this way because of my university studies in microbiology and Parasitology many years ago. Should never have looked down that microscope or touched an agar plate. Ignorance is bliss.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Stroller » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 12:50 pm

"There is also some immune response to Giardia and possibly Crypto which you can google as well as I can but here is one study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88932/. This could account for those growing up on a farm drinking untreated water having more tolerance. "

That must be it then - I've got a good dose of immunity and likewise those above who are more like me and less likely to filter their water. So then i guess the wisdom would be, if you've led a sheltered life, particularly as a young child, your risk is greater and you should take more care.

Re the worms carried by the family dog, this is why you should treat your dog regularly for worms isnt' it?
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby north-north-west » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:18 pm

Xplora wrote: I also cannot understand how people allow dogs to lick them on their face. Have you ever seen what you dog gets up to with its mouth.

It is utterly gross, isn't it. One of the very first things I teach my dogs is not to lick faces. I let them get away with legs and arms on rare occasions, but never faces.
They also generally learn very quickly not to lick or nibble on my toes. Not for hygiene, but simply a matter of uncontrollable sensitivity.

The jerk and I shared a house once with a bloke who let his cat not only get up on the kitchen counters and dining table, but to drink milk out of his breakfast cereal while he was eating it. It still gives me the shudders.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby GBW » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 4:52 pm

Xplora wrote:Have you ever seen what you dog gets up to with its mouth


Reminds me of the great Mozart composition 'Leck mich im Arsch'.

Stroller wrote:Re the worms carried by the family dog, this is why you should treat your dog regularly for worms isnt' it?


I treat my dog not to protect me but to prevent him from dying of heartworm disease. Every one my dogs has licked my face at some point since I was a baby and dare I say it there was the accidental tongue in the mouth on occasion...ewwww.

Being born in the early 60's I think we tended to not worry about getting dirty...face plants playing footy on ovals with six inches of mud and that blue shiny substance seeping up from below that had a stench somewhere between a toilet bowl and a dead gutter rat...after the game you'd pick the bits from between your teeth, have a shower and all's good. I think it's helped with my resilience to bugs and the fact I've only been to a doctor for sickness 3 times in my life...measles, chicken pox and some virus I picked up at 15 must mean something.

As far as water goes it depends on where I am and what the flow is like. In alpine areas I don't usually worry unless I've seen evidence of feral animals otherwise it's Katadyn Micropur Forte tablets and if I'm really sus boil it as well.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby slparker » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:47 pm

GRLillistone wrote:Filtering water through a Millbank filter requires no effort and yet it removes all sediment to provide me with clean, filtered water ready to purify by boiling or with chlorine tablets. It is small, light, has no working parts, is cleaned easily in the washing machine and will probably outlast me.
I take it on every trip.


It doesn't look from the photo that you're using it right. You don't collect water from a filled Milbank until the water level reaches the black line on the bag. The first half litre of filtered water is designed to flush gross contaminants from the outside of the bag. Anyway I could be wrong but that's what it looks like in the photo- that the water level is above the line.

You can use a Millbank as a coffee filter as well, by adding grounds to the bag and pouring in hot water. Because it filters very slowly you get drip filtered coffee.
.
Last edited by slparker on Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Stroller » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 6:48 pm

GBW wrote:
Stroller wrote:Re the worms carried by the family dog, this is why you should treat your dog regularly for worms isnt' it?


I treat my dog not to protect me but to prevent him from dying of heartworm disease. Every one my dogs has licked my face at some point since I was a baby and dare I say it there was the accidental tongue in the mouth on occasion...ewwww.

.


Actually i worm my dog for its own sake too first and foremost. But here we are not talking about heart worm either. We are talking about gut worm which should be done every three months. I have my dog vaccinated for heart worm also because its cheaper and fewer trips to the vet.

I think most people who own a dog treat them for worms. Or at least I would hope so.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby GRLillistone » Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:13 pm

slparker wrote:
It doesn't look from the photo that you're using it right. You don't collect water from a filled Milbank until the water level reaches the black line on the bag. The first half litre of filtered water is designed to flush gross contaminants from the outside of the bag. Anyway I could be wrong but that's what it looks like in the photo- that the water level is above the line.
.


I was using it correctly. The bag is less than a third full in the photo.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby walkerchris77 » Sun 31 Jul, 2016 9:20 am

Might be the cleanest water straight from the evian factory but if mr fox is having a drink up stream and decides he needs to drop a log then id rather filter and boil it just in case. If you get the runs out bush you better take heaps of paper and jocks.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Stroller » Sun 31 Jul, 2016 12:51 pm

walkerchris77 wrote:Might be the cleanest water straight from the evian factory but if mr fox is having a drink up stream and decides he needs to drop a log then id rather filter and boil it just in case. If you get the runs out bush you better take heaps of paper and jocks.


I got the poops on my hike of South Coast track in Tasmania. It struck on day 5. It was not a big deal. I even spent the next day climbing Precipitous bluff up and back for 13 hours. I don't think it was the water though. Or at least I still find it hard to accept it was the water. I think it might have something to do with the horribly flies and toilets provided and used by so many. I feel that other people are a far greater risk to my health than the wild animals. Of course i must have got my hands to my mouth via food or utensils for it to become an issue but i suspect that's what happened.

When you get the *&^%$#@!, you should stop eating. Rest if you can or if you are feeling unwell. Drink water and if you must eat anything, make it rice or bread only. And another option would be to bring some immodium or similar but most of these *&%$#! episodes are self-limiting, meaning that if you stop feeding the bugs your body will deal with it and cure itself. Just gotta keep up the fluids and body salts.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Xplora » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 6:24 am

Stroller wrote:
walkerchris77 wrote:Might be the cleanest water straight from the evian factory but if mr fox is having a drink up stream and decides he needs to drop a log then id rather filter and boil it just in case. If you get the runs out bush you better take heaps of paper and jocks.


I got the poops on my hike of South Coast track in Tasmania. It struck on day 5. It was not a big deal. I even spent the next day climbing Precipitous bluff up and back for 13 hours. I don't think it was the water though. Or at least I still find it hard to accept it was the water. I think it might have something to do with the horribly flies and toilets provided and used by so many. I feel that other people are a far greater risk to my health than the wild animals. Of course i must have got my hands to my mouth via food or utensils for it to become an issue but i suspect that's what happened.

When you get the *&^%$#@!, you should stop eating. Rest if you can or if you are feeling unwell. Drink water and if you must eat anything, make it rice or bread only. And another option would be to bring some immodium or similar but most of these *&%$#! episodes are self-limiting, meaning that if you stop feeding the bugs your body will deal with it and cure itself. Just gotta keep up the fluids and body salts.


Protozoa gastroenteritis generally takes a couple of weeks for symptoms to appear and it will be recurring usually until treated. Bacterial or viral gastro is much quicker but they too could take a couple of days to show in most cases. Almost half the dog population will carry the bacteria Campylobacter which is responsible for many gastro infections. Poor hygiene is the major cause of infection but drinking contaminated water is another. Mr. Fox no doubt carries it too as do most wild animals including deer, kangaroos and wombats. Food contamination may show symptoms sooner as the bacteria is more likely in a larger amount already. Hydration (as mentioned) is most important but make sure you are not drinking water which may have caused the infection.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Stroller » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 1:18 pm

Xplora, i reckon it mere E Coli. But of course I'm guessing.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 1:39 pm

I 'don't think', 'hard to accept', 'I think', 'I reckon'... None of it can be basis for objective reasoning. Yes, guessing, with paucity of support. Health advice and decisions can not be based on these.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Xplora » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 3:29 pm

GPSGuided wrote:I 'don't think', 'hard to accept', 'I think', 'I reckon'... None of it can be basis for objective reasoning. Yes, guessing, with paucity of support. Health advice and decisions can not be based on these.


This is very true. Most bouts of gastro in an healthy individual will be gone quickly but are not pleasant at the time. Some persist or reoccur. It is necessary to take a stool sample and isolate the cause so the appropriate measure to combat it can start. Bacterial infections may require a specific anitbiotic. Not much you can do with viruses but protozoa can be treated. It is also important to know when you are infectious and you may be spreading it with poor hygiene. What you survive could be fatal to someone more sensitive. Tropical viruses in water are particularly dangerous.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby jdeks » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 4:46 pm

This thread seems to be basically be just a bunch of speculation and conjecture.

Water policy is just about the only thing I ever found was consistent across the different training I've had, military and civil.

If it's stagnant, risk is elevated.
If it's downstream of agriculture, grazelands or settlement, risk is elevated.
If it's a catchment with a regular population of predators (eg dogs), risk is elevated.
But in the absence of actual, local information, about where you stand to the top of the watercourse , you dont know - just treat the stuff. You don't win any hardcore points for drinking untreated water, and these days, it's basically trivial anyway.

In over a decade, I've literally never found anyone teaching "You know this water is safe, because....". It's just not a thing. Be smart, and know when you don't know. "I drank from a muddy swamp when I was a kid and I never got sick, therefore this water will be fine" is a logic fail, and awful advice to make assumptions about unknown watercourses on. They harped on and on about it in the survival training - dehydration due to the runs will kill you faster than dehydration from not drinking. Boil the darn water, no mater how safe you reckon it probably is or how 'tough' your 'immunities' are.


Stroller wrote:Also i do not wash my hands with soap a lot of the time anymore when out camping. I don't use toilet paper and I often use the toilet practices of indians, having learnt from them when i was there. That is no more toilet paper. Just water.



Did I read that right? You clean yourself with bare hands and water instead of loo paper, then don't use soap?
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Stroller » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 9:26 pm

I use soap whenever there is plenty of water but i'm in the middle of nowhere with very little precious water, i can't afford to use it up rinsing the soap off.

I didn't think you could get over a protozoan bug in a day hence my guess. But it doesn't matter what it was as I got over it. Its only when you don't recover that knowing what bug you've got is more critical i think. Isn't it? ... So that you can treat it correctly. If you recover without needing professional help in a very short space of time, well its really neither here nor there.
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Strider » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 10:14 pm

Soap should be avoided in the bush due to its impact on ecosystems. Hand sanitiser gel is a much better option.

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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Stroller » Mon 01 Aug, 2016 11:06 pm

Soap is really only a problem in the bush if you put it in the stream. No one does that and if you thought I was that careless then that's unfortunate.

Personally i can't be bothered with sanitiser. Its not practical on my trips. Its fine for short trips but after that its just dead weight.

Now i must insist on retiring from this endless thread. Can someone please start a new topic. This one has gone far too long. Just saying...
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby puredingo » Tue 02 Aug, 2016 10:06 am

This ain't near as endless as the "nice guys" debarcle happening next thread down...
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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Eric » Mon 15 Aug, 2016 10:09 pm

When I lived in Armidale NSW I walking, climbed, canoed and canyoned in Oxley Wild Rivers NP quite a lot and always filtered the water because the catchment was the tablelands full of sheep and cattle, there were regularly a few people around Armidale crook from giardia from drinking in the gorge country (some suffered ongoing problems).
Last year I spent 9 days on the on the South Coast Walk drinking unfiltered running water the whole time and was fine, I carried a Sawyer filter but never used.
Locals told me to be careful of the water further north in Tasmania with some streams are contaminated by mining spoil.
I regularly drink untreated recently fallen rain water from depressions in sandstone rock platforms where I work in Kuringai NP with no ill effects.
I guess each situation you do a risk assessment and washing your hands is mandatory. Nothing worse than being sick as dog on a walk. Water is a big vector for disease.
I will be staying in the Equatorial Amazon in 6 weeks time and will be taking no chances with the water. (of course)

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Re: Is it necessary to filter water?

Postby Xplora » Wed 17 Aug, 2016 5:59 am

Perhaps in the future it will be as simple as this
http://www.treehugger.com/gadgets/tiny- ... nutes.html
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