No toothpaste

[TerraMer]

Hi!

Just wondering about the long term effects of cleaning teeth without using toothpastes or powders (organic homemade or commercial chemical varieties)?
In the guidelines for Leave No Trace I read something about foregoing toothpaste altogether for a cleaner spit.
I have tried the spray technique they also suggest but sometimes this doesn't work out so well in blustery weather.
I am thinking of doing the next walk (2,900kms) without toothpaste or powder but am wondering if there might be a problem with faster decay, less protection, etc, which will end up costing a small fortune to fix next year.

Part of my mind hopes giving away the sugary bubbly pastes will be better for my mouth health so long as I am strict about cleaning twice daily even when exhausted.

When walking through the outback I swallowed the toothpaste and rinse water because my water rations were too precious to spit out on the ground and that was not good for my health, my gut hated it.

I can probably make a datun (miswak or chewstick). Has anyone tried this and what have you found to be the best common tree twig for the job in Australia?

Looking forward to your suggestions and advice,
Terra

Please don't suggest oil pulling, tumeric gum rubbing or any other faux health alternatives.

[kitty]

Im interested too in what others suggest. Have you tried Weleda Salt Toothpaste which is mostly bicarb and salt. There is no foam and no colour, the ingredients are all listed on Weleda website. It does not classify as No Trace but it might be an improvement. Its also sugarless and unsweetened.

[Chunder fuzz]

You could try using a fluoride based mousse - I think the brand name is GC Tooth Mousse Plus (I don't know if there are other similar brands), rubs on, no need to rinse and spit. Comes in various flavours, I had some from the dentist awhile ago, didn't cause me any gut issues as you don't rinse/spit after using.

[stepbystep]

Also I was taught a cpl years ago, don't spit in gobs, spray widely in a fine mist(very satisfied). I brush once a day with minimal paste(a mineral based no flouride brand).

[Gadgetgeek]

as with hand washing, its my understanding that the first 80-90% of the work is just done by the mechanical action of brushing, so as long as you can brush and rinse your mouth when you eat, then you should be alright. Or at least better off than you would be with a once-a-day with paste.

[TerraMer]

Also I was taught a cpl years ago, don't spit in gobs, spray widely in a fine mist(very satisfied). I brush once a day with minimal paste(a mineral based no flouride brand).

I do this too, sometimes get gross spray back if wind is blustery (:

[TerraMer]

Really looking for advice and experience trekking longterm without teeth cleaning products apart from cut off toothbrush and/or datun.
Leave No Trace is the key here and the longterm (a 5-6 month trek) health effects.

[TerraMer]

Im interested too in what others suggest. Have you tried Weleda Salt Toothpaste which is mostly bicarb and salt. There is no foam and no colour, the ingredients are all listed on Weleda website. It does not classify as No Trace but it might be an improvement. Its also sugarless and unsweetened.

Thanks Kitty
Yes, I've tried these homemade and health store bicard/salt products. They are a great idea for the health and environment conscious and I wish my palate could handle them (:

[TerraMer]

You could try using a fluoride based mousse - I think the brand name is GC Tooth Mousse Plus (I don't know if there are other similar brands), rubs on, no need to rinse and spit. Comes in various flavours, I had some from the dentist awhile ago, didn't cause me any gut issues as you don't rinse/spit after using.

Thanks Chunder Fuzz
This sounds interesting!

[TerraMer]

as with hand washing, its my understanding that the first 80-90% of the work is just done by the mechanical action of brushing, so as long as you can brush and rinse your mouth when you eat, then you should be alright. Or at least better off than you would be with a once-a-day with paste.

Thank you!

[Orion]

Really looking for advice and experience trekking longterm without teeth cleaning products apart from cut off toothbrush and/or datun.
Leave No Trace is the key here and the longterm (a 5-6 month trek) health effects.

I went without toothpaste for one trip. For the first couple of days it was fine as my toothbrush had a slight residue of toothpaste on it. But after the residue wore off completely, brushing just didn't make my mouth feel very clean. By the end of my trip -- just 8 days long -- toothpaste became the item I wanted more than anything else when I got out. I hitchhiked to get back and got the guy driving the car to lend me some toothpaste.

What I discovered in those first couple of days was how little toothpaste I needed to be happy (about 3g per week).

To avoid leaving any toothpaste residue in the wilderness you could use a tiny amount and then swallow it. Consuming a small amount of toothpaste isn't harmful. Alternatively, you could spit into a ziplock baggie and carry it out. That would be my choice if I cared about it (I don't). If the concern is just one of visual pollution then don't just spit; fill your mouth with water first to dilute it and then spit it all out. Or go ahead and spit and then kick some dirt over it.

As for dental health itself I think that it has been shown that fluoride based toothpastes are efficacious. I would think twice about skipping the paste for long periods of time.

[kitty]

What about this? Just add water. Might be worth a try.
http://www.yumeshokunin.jp/mo/mo2016-en.html

[farefam]

I forgot my toothbrush on a walk once. First couple of days was okay but after eight days I was desperate to brush them! No tooth decay though.

On my walks I just take a small tube of ordinary toothpaste, brush twice a day and spit the used toothpaste into a plastic bag and carry it out. Works fine and you don't notice the trivial amount of extra weight.

[peregrinator]

No, I am not a dentist, but don't forget the role that dental floss plays in getting debris out of your mouth. Remove the spool from the plastic container and the floss has negligible weight. Never thought I'd be writing on this topic in a bushwalking forum!

[GPSGuided]

+1 on the dental floss if one is to list the various means of dental hygiene in order of importance. Dig out of all the trapped food using the floss and there won't be any 'rot' and bad bacteria left. The superficial surfaces can be managed with some finger tip rubs and a good rinse.

[Neo]

As I understand it, it's the brusing action that does most of the cleaning work. And flossing out any trapped food reduces bacteria and cavaties. But we are used to a minty fresh feeling...
Floss is so light I wouldn't bother removing the container unless striving for an uber light base weight.
When visiting the dentist if they don't give you some then ask for some sample tubes of paste. Negligible grams.

[TerraMer]

I guess cleaning technique comes into it too. I stopped overnight in a parks camp ground with other walkers recently and saw some teens cleaning their teeth. They barely touched their teeth, literally took 5 seconds. I brush for 5 minutes minimum in a strict rigorous routine I've used for 4 decades.

Is the need for oral hygiene products psychological or can we maintain good oral health without them? Do we buy these things because we know no better, because marketers tell us too? Are they merely products of convenience and comfort because we are accustomed to them? Can we adjust to the different feeling and taste of cleaning without products? Is it easier to tolerate and adjust if your motivation is eco-centric, to Leave No Trace? Did oral hygiene products start as a commercial concept or a teaching gimmick or for people with already poor hygiene habits?

When you think about it, how much do we buy and use without questioning its necessity?

We can carry the concept of Leave No Trace beyond our immediate impact while walking by reducing the amount of stuff/packaging purchased and packed for the walk and the waste we generate.

[TerraMer]

Has anyone read Claire Dunn's book "My Year Without Matches"? I wonder if she mentioned anything about this subject?

[TerraMer]

Thanks Peregrinator, GPS and Neo.
If I ever get food stuck between teeth between brushes I use a long strand of hair. I have a few head hairs course enough to clean a gas jet, strong enough to double as floss (:

[GPSGuided]

Brushing clears the easy surface stuff and tries to remove those trapped b/n teeth and gum line, not very well though. Dental floss and dental picks are far better for that purpose. Those areas are where decay and dental/oral diseases occur.

[andrewa]

I'm a GP, not a dentist.

My immediate thought is that reducing decay requires removal of debris on the tooth surface and between teeth. To me, a toothbrush and floss should do the trick. I think toothpaste is just a nice tasting abrasive.

A

[Moondog55]

Old bushies are supposed to have used wood ash and powdered charcoal to clean their teeth [ tried it once - very soapy and bitter- maybe I used far too much] and finding old fire traces is usually easy so perhaps a chunk of charcoal in the pocket and use a little bit at a time>??
Native chewing gum might also help but I'm not sure which of the wattles/acacias it is

[Luke001]

I think I can help with this one. There are several reasons we brush our teeth with a Fluoride containing toothpaste and its no accident that all the major and well researched formulations of toothpaste use this as the main active ingredient.

We all have bacteria in our mouths. The bacteria lives on the left over bits of food and drink that get stuck to our teeth. The mix of bacteria the substances released by the bacteria and food debris all mushed together form the plaque on our teeth. We all know if we leave plaque on our teeth we are more likely to get a hole in the tooth. The holes are caused by a process of acid attack. The acid can come from the diet but is also released by bacteria in your plaque. It is a bi-product of the bacteria metabolising (eating) food. The acid softens the tooth and if left for long enough will form a hole. Brushing with a quality toothpaste will help to reduce the likelihood of this by first a mechanical scrubbing away of the plaque on our teeth. The fluoride contributes by helping to reduce to number of hole causing bacteria in the mouth (its a bit bactericidal and disrupts the activity of any holes causing bacteria in the mouth). Most importantly though the fluoride helps to repair teeth that have suffered from some early loss of mineral from the plaque by encouraging more rapid remineralisation of the tooth structure. It also forms a more acid resistant outer layer of the tooth which is less susceptible to acid attack. So its both the mechanical action and the action of the fluoride that is helping to protect your teeth.

Does that mean if you dont you a fluoride toothpaste you will definitely get a hole? Not really but you might be more likely to. Its a balance between the acid attack (demineralisation - making the tooth softer) and your efforts to remineralise the tooth (pushing mineral back into the tooth - making the tooth harder). To much imbalance towards making the tooth softer will cause a hole to form.

Things that encourage remineralisation (making the tooth harder - less holes):
- The biggest thing that helps protect our teeth is our saliva. It should be high in calcium and phosphate minerals that help to strengthen out teeth and fight the effects of acid. It also helps to buffer acids and make them less able to dissolve our teeth. So keeping hydrated and chewing sugar free gum which stimulates salivary flow will help protect your teeth.
- Because someone brought it up i will add GC Toothmoose. It kinda boosts the remineralisation that should natural occur. It has a bunch of calcium and phosphate in a special protein derived from milk that helps deliver the mineral to the tooth. It can be very beneficial for some people who have a hard time naturally remineralising there teeth. It has two versions and one also has fluoride which also helps promote remineralisation.
- Reducing the amount of plaque on your teeth. Brushing and flossing.
- Using fluoride containing toothpaste
- Having a diet low in acid and simple sugars will also help (the bacteria has an easier time living on simple sugars and will release more acid).

The bad - making the teeth softer:
- not cleaning your teeth: more plaque = more acid
- have a diet high in simple sugars and high in acid. What foods are high in acid usually lollies, fruits (especially citrus), vinegary foods, soft drink, sports drinks (most things with food acid 330 in the ingredient list)
- anything that reduces your salivary flow: Drinking coffee, high caffeine soft drinks and energy drinks, some medications, being dehydrated
- not using a fluoride toothpaste

There are few other things but most of the others are anatomical or genetic which you cant do to much about.

So how long can you go with without brushing? That's going to be different for everyone but I will say usually a hole will take at least a few weeks to develop. I should add that that under the correct circumstances this can happen much faster (Eg. if you hike eating a sugary trail mix thats also high in acids, snack on some citrus fruits at lunch, your walking hard and getting dehydrated, using treated water with a few electrolytes added (likely with a bit of acid and some extra simple sugars - you could have the perfect hole causing storm going on). You have to remember though that its much more difficult to remineralise a tooth than it is to prevent the demineralisation. You also have to think about your gums. A simple study we did at Uni demonstrated early stages of gum disease in only 2 days of not brushing.

So my advise would be to carry the extra couple of grams. When you brush just stay clear of waterways and dig a little hole to spit in like you do for a toilet break and cover it back over. No trace left.

[GPSGuided]

Don't forget the contribution of our saliva, it naturally normalise the oral pH environment as well as containing immunoglobulin to resists all kinds of foreign agents but they aren't effective when bulky materials are present. Hence, the priority is to remove those trapped material b/n teeth and along the gum line than surface material. That's why floss works well, by being able to go b/n teeth and deeper into the gum line. Brushing does not compare. As such and for the bush, dental floss is the obvious first line before brush/paste when talking about dental and oral hygiene.

[Orion]

Coffee and soft drinks reduce salivary flow? I can cite two sources that say the exact opposite!

[Orion]

TerraMer, unfortunately everything you're reading here is opinion. I would take it with a grain of salt. For that matter, the available scientific information about the efficacy of brushing, fluoride toothpaste, and flossing is not strong. And nobody here is citing sources anyway. The recommendations to do this or that are mostly common sense based, and it isn't unusual for common sense to be incorrect.

I'm not sure your basic premise is rooted in sound logic. Does the toothpaste residue most of us spit out have a significant effect on the environment? Is this more of a philosophical goal?

[MrWalker]

Old bushies are supposed to have used wood ash and powdered charcoal to clean their teeth [ tried it once - very soapy and bitter- maybe I used far too much] and finding old fire traces is usually easy so perhaps a chunk of charcoal in the pocket and use a little bit at a time>??
Native chewing gum might also help but I'm not sure which of the wattles/acacias it is

My wife said her father often used a small piece of charcoal to clean his teeth. It works fine as long as you don't have a mirror handy to look at your blackened teeth.
I told her I couldn't suggest that here because none of us would light a fire when out in the bush.

[Luke001]

Fluoride Toothpaste Cochrane Review:
http://www.cochrane.org/CD007868/ORAL_c ... dolescents

Toothbrushing Frequency and Dental Caires Meta-Analysis:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27980327

There is a lot of research done to back up the benefits of brushing and using Fluoride toothpaste. End of the day its your mouth do as you please. Im not saying you have to use a Fluoride toothpaste either its just one extra thing we can do to help keep our teeth healthy. You can use other alternatives and it will still do the mechanical removal of the plaque and for some people that will be enough but for others with more risk factors then they may need the extra benefit the fluoride provides. If you need any more info please just let me know.

End of the day its your teeth and you need to make a decision about how you think its best to care for them.

[Luke001]

Coffee and soft drinks reduce salivary flow? I can cite two sources that say the exact opposite!

I checked this an expected to be able to hand you a few studies to back it up. I've been hearing since my uni days that caffeine is a mild diuretic and can lead to being more dehydrated which may reduce salivary flow. Sounded pretty reasonable i and never questioned it but I looked it up and your correct. There's been some limited studies done and they suggest that its not going to have a massive effect on salivary flow. Kinda surprises me really as my mouth always feels drier after having a coffee. Never stop learning hey.

Still soft drink is one of the most decay inducing beverages you can have in your diet. Lots of sugar and a very acidic pH. Coffee isn't the worse I think, its only very mildly acidic but it ability to promote decay is more related to how much sugar you add it appears (its also pretty good at staining your teeth, but you probably wont notice if your using a charcoal based toothpaste I suppose. lol).

[Orion]

It's been shown that coffee doesn't have a stronger diuretic effect than plain water. While the acidity isn't good for your teeth, (black) coffee is complex enough that I would withhold judgement about its cumulative effect on dental health. Apparently coffee has a significant anti-microbial effect.

As for fluoride toothpaste, I know there are studies that show efficacy in children and adolescents. But is the evidence as strong for adults? It could be a mistake to extrapolate across age groups. There might be important age-related differences in diet, salivary chemistry, microbiome, or perhaps the tooth enamel itself. Personally, I got loads of cavities as a kid and now I don't get them anymore. I don't brush any more often or with better technique. Something else changed.