AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Wed 18 Oct, 2017 3:21 pm

tom_brennan wrote:Perhaps the first thing should be a change of name from AAAS to AOAG (Australian Outdoor Activity Guidelines).


Good one Tom. I like the sound of that. More good stuff in the other things you said as well. I am actually quite sympathetic to the cause but have not been convinced volunteer groups should be exempt from some form of regulation which is applicable to the activity. I am not sure who how you could push this name but it would be worthwhile.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:10 pm

If I accept that to be 80% then Bushwalking Vic should accept 20% is relevant to volunteer groups. That would be the converse of the statement. Given BV is a peak body then it should not be ignored and they should demand a seat at the table to help formulate the guidelines so it is clear when and how they relate to volunteer groups.


The 20% of the contentious draft new "AAAS Core Standard" that we think is relevant to volunteer bushwalkers is already adequately addressed by resources such as:
    Bushwalking & Ski Touring Leadership (Bushwalking & Mountaincraft Advisory Board, Victoria)
    Leadership training modules, including navigation, leadership, risk management and safety (Bushwalking Victoria)
    Walksafe guidelines (Bushwalking Victoria)
    Snowsafe guidelines
    Bush Search and Rescue Victoria Manual (Bushwalking Victoria)
    Safety in The Bush (Hobart Walking Club)
    Risk Management Guidelines (Bushwalking Victoria)

If the AAAS do apply to volunteers then compliance with the additional inappropriate 80% (including "Organise Personal Work Priorities and Development" "Provide Quality Service" "Follow Occupational Health and Safety Policies (Workplace)) will be required.

When you read the draft Core AAAS you will see how ridiculous this is.

Bushwalking Victoria's concerns have been dismissed to date with brush offs like "the AAAS are not compulsory" (nonsense) and "the AAS are already in place" (applied only to commercial operators and the Core AAAS are new).

We don't want to participate in develop of industry/commercial standards - but we do agree they should be developed for and applied to commercial operators.

The evidence is clear that volunteer bushwalkers are managing their safety well (we even run an emergency service - very few missing people belong to clubs!)

We think Outdoor Leader Online should become a national resource for volunteer bushwalkers across Australia. We are working toward this happening.

Peter Campbell
President, Bushwalking Victoria
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 2:14 pm

Outdoor Recreation Guidelines?

Anyhow, just one point; they are equally unnecessary for commercial operators and you shouldn't endorse them as such. Especially if only to add credence to your cause.

Bushwalking volunteers could very well thank the myriad representatives for the situation 'we' are in now.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:29 pm

just one point; they are equally unnecessary for commercial operators and you shouldn't endorse them as such.
Errr ...
I rather think that the overwhelming consensus is that they ARE necessary for the commercial operators - even if some of the cowboys are kicking and screaming. Australia must be about the only significant country where commercial operators are not regulated yet.

Bushwalking volunteers could very well thank the myriad representatives for the situation 'we' are in now.
You know, I read this several times over, and I still don't understand it.
Are you saying that we (the bushwalking community) can thank all the other 'representatives' (bureaucrats and commercial operators) for the mess? If so, I agree.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 5:42 pm

argh, well that didn't work..

Can't speak for the cowboys, i would suggest there aren't any but then I understand this process, as far as industry is concerned, was driven mostly by educators (note the diversity standards attempt to serve). In their case there may well be 'cowboys', not sure (?). I don't expect poor practice is widespread and have not seen any cases, decided as negligence, quoted to date.. You?

In suggesting there aren't any maybe i only project my little corner of this world. And that the organic processes in place have been well tested. hmm. but that's no counterpoint stronger than a club arguing it's traditional systems/ or lack of, are always going to be good enough.

Even ignoring state standards there are some strong implications for ensuring qualified guides (necessary) and practices that are very much formalised in the concession and insurance process (unless one wants to put their company or own possessions at risk by signing off on qualifications or experience without checking.. ie. well beyond 'standards' - which may not even necessarily need referencing in a court).

Personally, not that it's anybodies business, i'll comply with anything required. As I have said previously it's neither here nor there, for a business. The more tape and tedium the less desire for competing new startups. shrug. It will, however, continue to flow to whoever will take it. There's a lesson right there that I doubt many people would have exposure to in many workplaces other than ownership or management of a private business or relatable to politicians as dīvide et īmpera.

What 'consensus? By whom? You mean here? by some walkers who may have just heard of the AS and are looking for a way out.. support dumping this on an industry rather than bushwalkers? Ok.. I'd suggest that is knee-jerk and poorly thought through but understandable, a few. You, Peter? Anyhow, to do so is much easier for a larger company but nevermind, we'll just follow along. And i'll probably still sign petitions which have no effect on my own personal situation.

My concerns are more broad, for a country that doesn't continue to choke everything in such questionable process for the sake of having one, yes even 'coz others do' and is a concern mainly for private persons. As it stands we'll end up with state And national standards, and at the coal-face the same realistic set of practices... with more bureaucracy. It's so easy to forget people to whom these things apply, with regulators and board sitters, a compliance industry as superstars.

Bureaucrats, Commercial Operators and Bushwalking Representative Groups. All those who were keen to jump in and develop state standards... with some giving seemingly little thought to where they could lead? Others knowing exactly what to expect. :roll:

We've covered most of this already.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 6:34 pm

Oh, we have a few cowboys in NSW all right.

Several 'adventure' groups used to abseil off Mt Banks (600 m descent), putting in fixed bolts on a very public rock face in a National Park. They were supposed to book with the NPWS and pay a fee, but they kept dodging that. In the end the NPWS removed all the fixed bolts and banned anything on the face: the liability was too high. By and large, NSW Clubs never bothered with the abseil there.

Another 'adventure' group had a party of beginners learning to abseil. The 'instructor' told one customer to lay out the two abseil ropes from the tree there. He did. The the instructor focused on a second customer and made sure his/her rack was set up properly on the ropes. 'Over you go'. The abseiler fell the whole way to the bottom and was killed. It turned out the first customer had done exactly what he was told to do: LAY OUT the ropes. He had not been taught how to tie a knot, and hadn't. The ropes were unattached. I don't think any NSW Club has ever had anything like that happen.

A third 'adventure' group was taking a group of customers down a simple canyon. The 'instructor' told the customers to jump off the ledge into the water below. He did not check first as to whether there were any underwater snags or rocks ready to spike and kill someone. These happen after rain. Fortunately no one was killed. But all the members of a Club trip patiently following the adventure group were horrified at this cavalier attitude, and they abseiled, safely.

Cowboys? You judge.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Thu 19 Oct, 2017 7:50 pm

Ok, there are skill sets in the standards that are not necessary. As guidelines someone could spend a career as a bushwalking leader without ever needing these formal qualifications and consider this fair and reasonable.

When I think of 'cowboy's' it's unlicenced /uninsured guides and groups organised on the sly, which has happened here. The licenced operators wouldn't get away with much.

But I agree/d, while some of the best leaders will equally come through formal training institutions, you can't teach passion and there's a bigger pool of long experience in clubs (even though opponents to any regulation also speak/act for some skyrocketing internet based 'groups', stands to reason, with far less widespread experience)

A set of standards can not much change this imbalance.
A set of standards can support formal qualifications and institutions.. which could be at odds with maintaining access to passionate, experienced and enthusiastic people, from a range of backgrounds. Limiting for businesses access to good leaders as they could be for clubs.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Fri 20 Oct, 2017 6:06 am

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:The 20% of the contentious draft new "AAAS Core Standard" that we think is relevant to volunteer bushwalkers is already adequately addressed by resources such as:
    Bushwalking & Ski Touring Leadership (Bushwalking & Mountaincraft Advisory Board, Victoria)
    Leadership training modules, including navigation, leadership, risk management and safety (Bushwalking Victoria)
    Walksafe guidelines (Bushwalking Victoria)
    Snowsafe guidelines
    Bush Search and Rescue Victoria Manual (Bushwalking Victoria)
    Safety in The Bush (Hobart Walking Club)
    Risk Management Guidelines (Bushwalking Victoria)


Finally some factual and relevant input from the opposition. This is good Peter and exactly the sort of stuff needed to argue your point and the sort of thing I have been banging my head to drag out. Now to take it a step further as I have eluded to previously and you mention later in your post. Will get to that.

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:If the AAAS do apply to volunteers then compliance with the additional inappropriate 80% (including "Organise Personal Work Priorities and Development" "Provide Quality Service" "Follow Occupational Health and Safety Policies (Workplace)) will be required.

When you read the draft Core AAAS you will see how ridiculous this is.

Bushwalking Victoria's concerns have been dismissed to date with brush offs like "the AAAS are not compulsory" (nonsense) and "the AAS are already in place" (applied only to commercial operators and the Core AAAS are new).


With this I have a problem and it is pretty clear you will not have to comply with guidelines that have no relevance. Even commercial groups will not have to comply with them all each time. It will depend on the situation or activity. But it is clear and regardless of what some believe, volunteer groups WILL have dependent persons and a duty of care from time to time. Choosing, training and developing leaders is important. So the 80% of non-applicable guidelines can be ignored without prejudice as long as you can demonstrate compliance with the 20% which are relevant. I have no doubt insurers and land managers will agree with this.

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:We don't want to participate in develop of industry/commercial standards - but we do agree they should be developed for and applied to commercial operators.


I can accept this but you should want to participate in the formation of standards relevant to volunteer groups and with the many new groups starting up then it would be much better for responsible clubs to show a point of difference from those run by inexperienced people. Land managers will take note of this once these groups start coming unstuck and if you ignore it then all volunteer groups could be lumped into the same basket.

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:The evidence is clear that volunteer bushwalkers are managing their safety well (we even run an emergency service - very few missing people belong to clubs!)


For the moment this may be largely true. Apart from the 2 incidents I related earlier I am also aware of a number of other incidents with clubs and volunteer groups where things could have gone wrong. I averted one. A friend told me of a club walk where she was left behind. She had only just joined the club and the people walked so fast she could not keep up. She did not go back for another walk. Not bushwalking but club related, a double fatality in 2000 at Carra Beanga Falls involved a university mountaineering club. Many bushwalking clubs do canyons and since it has been raised previously in this thread as example it is relevant.

I have also personally seen trained volunteers go to water in a crisis. Not all are suited to leadership. We are all human and make mistakes or err in our judgement. Some people are just plane stupid or lack commonsense. There is evidence some clubs have made mistakes so you cannot say they are perfect. I know you didn't say that but there has been that implication constantly in this thread with caveats such as 'very few' or 'mostly'. I have not even tried hard and have provided a number of examples where clubs have not been safe and this from my own small experience or interaction.

To say you run an emergency service is a bit of a stretch. You provide assistance, feet on the ground, to emergency services and are under their control in any search. It is recognised some people within your organisation are skilled enough to do this but what is required before they can? I believe the SES in Victoria have taken control of all search and rescue operations within that state. They are trained volunteers mostly.

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:We think Outdoor Leader Online should become a national resource for volunteer bushwalkers across Australia. We are working toward this happening.


This is the direction I feel you should be heading and in my view the most positive thing said by anyone opposing the AAAS. The only way not to included in the AAAS is to have your own which is held to scrutiny and accepted by land managers and insurers. Providing national guidelines and your own training modules which are available online is fantastic. Affiliation should require acceptance of these.

Some may find me argumentative but it has not been without cause. I am hoping my opposition and argument has helped you see more clearly a way forward for clubs. It is inevitable that clubs will face more scrutiny in the future and to survive they must be set apart from all those not doing the right thing.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Fri 20 Oct, 2017 8:24 am

Finally some factual and relevant input from the opposition.


From the petition: "Community-based bushwalking trip leaders will continue to ensure their bushwalks are safe by using and updating a variety of resources on topics including trip planning, trip management, leadership, bushcraft, navigation, first aid and handling emergencies." http://bit.ly/AAAS-petition

Outdoors Victorian and the Victorian government are aware of the specific resources successfully used by volunteer bushwalkers and don't dispute that there are very few incidents with club bushwalks - which causes me to question which problem they are trying to solve with the AAAS?

To say you run an emergency service is a bit of a stretch. You provide assistance, feet on the ground, to emergency services and are under their control in any search. It is recognised some people within your organisation are skilled enough to do this but what is required before they can? I believe the SES in Victoria have taken control of all search and rescue operations within that state. They are trained volunteers mostly.


Bush Search and Rescue is a registered emergency service organisation http://www.bsar.org/emergencyservicestatus/ in the Emergency Management Manual of Victoria (EMMV). Its one of three standing committees of Bushwalking Victoria.

Police Search and Rescue is the coordinating agency for Land SAR in Victoria. They activate/call support agencies such as BSAR, the SES, CFA etc as required.

Note that the Core Standards actually apply to leaders for all adventure activities that Outdoors Victoria say they are writing "standards" for, including abseiling, artificial climbing, bushwalking, canoeing & kayaking, challenge ropes, four-wheel driving, horse trail riding, mountain biking, recreational angling, caving, river rafting, rock climbing, snow sports, surfing, trail bike riding, archery, canyoning, sea kayaking, surf kayaking, snorkelling, wildlife swims and scuba diving.

Volunteer clubs and leaders across all these activities will be impacted by the Core AAAS is it states they "shall" comply with all of it.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Fri 20 Oct, 2017 9:31 am

But it is clear and regardless of what some believe, volunteer groups WILL have dependent persons and a duty of care from time to time.
Xplora


It may be that the situation in Victoria is different from what obtains in NSW. In NSW we have the Wrongs Act which states (regarding volunteers)
5L(1) A person (the defendant) is not liable in negligence for harm suffered by another person (the plaintiff) as a result of the materialisation of an obvious risk of a dangerous recreational activity engaged in by the plaintiff.
5M(1) A person (the defendant) does not owe a duty of care to another person who engages in a recreational activity (the plaintiff) to take care in respect of a risk of the activity if the risk was the subject of a risk warning to the plaintiff.
5M(4) A risk warning can be given orally or in writing (including by means of a sign or otherwise).

In addition, when someone joins a Club here in NSW they sign an agreement absolving the Club and leaders from liability.

I cannot put any plainer than that. To keep asserting 'dependent person's and 'duty of care' based on just a gut feeling is ... well, it won't stand up in a NSW court. And no AA(A)S can over-ride that. Waste of time and electrons.

Cheers
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby legend » Fri 20 Oct, 2017 3:24 pm

What are your thoughts about the many thousands of non-club bushwalkers out there?
We see them everywhere doing some interesting stuff - like walking the Eastern/Wester Arthurs, Mt Anne circuit, cross-country walking across the Central Plateau in Tasmania, the Snowy Mountains, Budawangs, etc
because they can simple access a guidebook.
The majority of deaths and very serious injuries happen on non-club walks.
I am wondering how such AAAS 'guidelines' will immpact at those who are most at risk.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Fri 20 Oct, 2017 4:00 pm

I am wondering how such AAAS 'guidelines' will impact at those who are most at risk.

Chuckle. They can not. The whole thing is a bit silly.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby eggs » Fri 20 Oct, 2017 4:06 pm

Anyone who leaves the security blanket of home/town has a personal duty to consider their own welfare.
That applies when travelling overseas, going on a boat, any sport and walking, etc.
Authorities can place signs and seek to educate, but in the end a person must be responsible for themselves.
The current rise in litigation, calls for "rights" and compensation claims can make a nonsense of this principle - but it is not a step forward as a civilisation.

Asimov tells a great little SF story about robots using his 3 laws. The glitch this time is that the first law - "no harm to humans" - results in the robots forcibly stopping people from doing anything risky - like playing darts.
The end result is a boring existence where very little is allowed to be done.
Bureaucrats can view their empire building and law making after a similar framework - "must not let anyone take risks".
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby slparker » Fri 20 Oct, 2017 6:00 pm

rcaffin wrote:But it is clear and regardless of what some believe, volunteer groups WILL have dependent persons and a duty of care from time to time.
Xplora


It may be that the situation in Victoria is different from what obtains in NSW. In NSW we have the Wrongs Act which states (regarding volunteers)
5L(1) A person (the defendant) is not liable in negligence for harm suffered by another person (the plaintiff) as a result of the materialisation of an obvious risk of a dangerous recreational activity engaged in by the plaintiff.
5M(1) A person (the defendant) does not owe a duty of care to another person who engages in a recreational activity (the plaintiff) to take care in respect of a risk of the activity if the risk was the subject of a risk warning to the plaintiff.
5M(4) A risk warning can be given orally or in writing (including by means of a sign or otherwise).

In addition, when someone joins a Club here in NSW they sign an agreement absolving the Club and leaders from liability.

I cannot put any plainer than that. To keep asserting 'dependent person's and 'duty of care' based on just a gut feeling is ... well, it won't stand up in a NSW court. And no AA(A)S can over-ride that. Waste of time and electrons.

Cheers
Roger


I am not sure why you are harping on this legal definition of dependency. Sure, you may not be liable in a court of law for poor decision making as a club leader, but this completely abrogates any moral imperative that club leaders have to make sound decisions on behalf of the people that they lead. You keep avoiding this word 'dependent' as if it is a venomous snake but what word do you use to describe novice walkers who follow the advice of a walk leader?

From the novice walkers' perspective the walk leader is a figure of expertise and authority. Any punter about to join a club would be horrified to learn that a club leader denies responsibility and accountability for the welfare of the group because of the legal definition of 'dependent'. Well, that is how it is reading anyway.

Walk leaders ought to be accountable and responsible, to a point, for decisions involving the safety of the led.

My club has this to say on duty of care:

Event Leaders

Assess risks relating to their activity and comply with the club’s risk management requirements and operating procedures
Ensure visitors undertake suitable activities and are aware of club procedures.
Club members and guests need to take responsibility for their own safety
Exercise a duty of care to all participants (my bold)
Ensure they have health and/or fitness levels and equipment suitable for the activities they undertake
Follow club operating procedures.


If a duty of care is stated than it is more than a 'gut feeling' it is an expectation of the club on its leaders.

I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Fri 20 Oct, 2017 6:28 pm

I am not sure why you are harping on this legal definition of dependency
Because when it comes to a court case, THAT's what counts. Anything else is fluff.

Club members and guests need to take responsibility for their own safety
Precisely. That is the law, which is what I have been saying all along. In NSW, that is what the Wrongs Act says.

Exercise a duty of care to all participants
That is the CLUB's expectation, which is fine and I support it as a Club requirement. But it has zero significance in a court of law.

The AAAS is not only stupid when applied to a volunteer Club, it is legally unenforceable. The whole concept is legally dead. So why bother with it in the first place? We can in fact tell Outdoors Victoria to take a running jump.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Sat 21 Oct, 2017 5:41 am

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:Outdoors Victorian and the Victorian government are aware of the specific resources successfully used by volunteer bushwalkers and don't dispute that there are very few incidents with club bushwalks - which causes me to question which problem they are trying to solve with the AAAS?

It has rightly identified that at times volunteer groups organising outdoor activities have dependent persons and a duty of care regardless of what some believe.

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:Bush Search and Rescue is a registered emergency service organisation http://www.bsar.org/emergencyservicestatus/ in the Emergency Management Manual of Victoria (EMMV). Its one of three standing committees of Bushwalking Victoria.


As far as I can tell from reading the document BSAR is noted as a support agency only. There is a difference and I hold to my original comment. A bit of a stretch to say you run an emergency service. That aside, having some involvement in search and rescue does not mean the entire organisation maintains the same standard. Those involved are vetted and must undergo further and continued training. I think using this as an argument against the AAAS does not hold much weight.

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:Police Search and Rescue is the coordinating agency for Land SAR in Victoria. They activate/call support agencies such as BSAR, the SES, CFA etc as required.

I stand corrected. The local policeman told me a few years back that the SES was taking control of search and rescue. He appears to have been in error as am I per current standings.

Bushwalking Victoria wrote:Note that the Core Standards actually apply to leaders for all adventure activities that Outdoors Victoria say they are writing "standards" for, including abseiling, artificial climbing, bushwalking, canoeing & kayaking, challenge ropes, four-wheel driving, horse trail riding, mountain biking, recreational angling, caving, river rafting, rock climbing, snow sports, surfing, trail bike riding, archery, canyoning, sea kayaking, surf kayaking, snorkelling, wildlife swims and scuba diving.

Volunteer clubs and leaders across all these activities will be impacted by the Core AAAS is it states they "shall" comply with all of it.


I am not sure what the core standards are that you are referring to. Working off the AAS for Vic then section 4 has leader specific guidelines and I see nothing onerous about them. In fact I would expect leaders in volunteer groups to do these things. Pretty basic stuff and not commercial specific.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Sat 21 Oct, 2017 6:07 am

Roger - it seems your one and only time in court has made you believe that quoting legislation, without explanation or interpretation, over and over again means you win. I have already demonstrated how wrong you are about the Wrongs Act but you will never see it. You quote legislation again which has words you believe absolve you totally of any duty of care but that section refers to risks identified and communicated. There are many other times a duty of care is obvious. If you truly believe the Wrongs Act and your indemnity waivers protect you from any litigation and absolve you from any duty of care then you should cancel your clubs insurance now. As previously said, the Wrongs Act does not protect volunteers from litigation as a result of negligence or when they are not acting in good faith. If the plaintiff asserts this then the defendant will need to provide more than quoting legislation. I can't say it planer than that. If you think this is all such a waste of time and electrons then maybe you should withdraw from the discussion as I don't see you providing one single constructive argument in support of your view. Your misguided views could be the ruin of clubs. I would not want to be a member of a club who held your views and likely it was your club or someone with your view that left a seriously injured man on his own while they went off for half a day to enjoy themselves because they felt he was responsible for himself. If he lost sight of his eye because of this negligent delay in evacuation I would think someone could be held accountable. He was not able to evacuate himself.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Sat 21 Oct, 2017 6:37 am

your one and only time in court
Wrong there.

quoting legislation, without explanation or interpretation, over and over again means you win.
That is the basis of a lot of our legal system: if you can find a close enough clause in an Act or even a precedent, that's it.The former is the reason we have Legislation: to remove the uncertainty. The latter is what underlies the practice of Common Law.

that section refers to risks identified and communicated
And that is what Clubs in NSW do. When you join or go on a trip, you sign a legal document acknowledging the risks - both known and unknown.

the Wrongs Act does not protect volunteers from litigation as a result of negligence or when they are not acting in good faith.
Good luck in trying to prove that about a person recognised by a Club as being qualified as a 'leader' in the eyes of his peers.

Boring.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Sat 21 Oct, 2017 8:29 am

rcaffin wrote:
quoting legislation, without explanation or interpretation, over and over again means you win.
That is the basis of a lot of our legal system: if you can find a close enough clause in an Act or even a precedent, that's it.The former is the reason we have Legislation: to remove the uncertainty. The latter is what underlies the practice of Common Law.

Again this shows your lack of understanding but you will never change. Legislation can create more uncertainty until a precedent is set. There are none for 'acting in good faith' but plenty for negligence.

rcaffin wrote: that section refers to risks identified and communicated
And that is what Clubs in NSW do. When you join or go on a trip, you sign a legal document acknowledging the risks - both known and unknown.

You cannot sign a waiver acknowledging a risk that is unknown and have it binding. If it is a risk that can reasonably be expected from the activity given the plaintiffs experience and knowledge then sure. You also need to communicate these risks verbally, by sign or in writing not just mention the word risk.

rcaffin wrote: the Wrongs Act does not protect volunteers from litigation as a result of negligence or when they are not acting in good faith.
Good luck in trying to prove that about a person recognised by a Club as being qualified as a 'leader' in the eyes of his peers.

I doubt luck would be needed. My above example is sufficient to show a significant degree of negligence. If you don't think so then I would call into doubt your suitability to lead a group. Would you have left a person with an eye injury, who was in significant pain, alone for half a day before evacuation? Regardless of the injured person's experience, he immediately became a dependent person once injured and there was then a direct duty of care burden on the leadership of that group. They failed this group member. Yes or No.

rcaffin wrote:Boring.

Seems not enough to stop you from commenting.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Sat 21 Oct, 2017 8:59 am

Legislation can create more uncertainty until a precedent is set. There are none for 'acting in good faith' but plenty for negligence.
Mind boggling belief.
Fortunately, in NSW, the Wrongs Act covers that completely.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 21 Oct, 2017 3:09 pm

This has been a very interesting discussion. In my view I think it would be useful to focus on areas other than legal ones. However, some brief legal points. My background includes prosecuting, and I've had wins against ASX listed companies quite a few times.

Laws exist to define accepted behaviour and provide legal recourse - called remedies - if laws are broken. Laws can influence behaviour, such as seat belt laws. Standards are not laws but have the same effect, such as using a licensed electrician. The tort of negligence is murky for non-lawyers, with many precedents and qualifiers that make interpretation hard for lay people. Some legislation cited above seems not to exist.

For example, see this
https://www.cbp.com.au/insights/2013/ja ... 2002-%28ns
This shows all the complexity of legislation and how hard they are to interpret. The link refers to "dangerous recreational activities". Bushwalking is potentially dangerous, but can be made safe. The climb up The Castle in Morton NP is potentially dangerous, but I'm a rock climber and effectively soloed the chimney. However, my group were not rock climbers, so I used a harness and a belay for all other people, making it safer.

Roger's sad tale of the abseiler who laid out the ropes staggered me. With beginners I'll check the abseil system several times, up to the moment the punter goes over the edge. If possible there will be a belay, or at the very least, one person on the bottom to pull the ropes tight and slow descent if necessary. There will be separate knots in the end of each half of the abseil rope. Then I'll check it all again, and check my setup several times before I go over. Xplora had a similar sad story about an injured person who was left while the group did a side-trip. Both involve negligence, and fail the reasonable person test, a long-established legal concept.

There are many ways that a good leader can minimise risk. It might be as simple as doing nothing in the Western Arthurs while a storm passed. It may be taking extra water as the campsite water is uncertain.

Many people have skills and experience similar to me, different places, different situations, perhaps with paying clients, SAR, with school groups, etc. Most experienced bushwalking leaders will adhere to standards, often unwritten. These are described in the OV effort - the 20% part - BMLC, club guidelines or requirements, or the like. These standards vary across time and space, so a Perth bushwalking club that does mainly day trips has different standards to a club that does harder walks, like the Victorian Mountain Tramping Club.

However, there are constants. Plan the walk. Plan for any probable emergency. As necessary, advise participants what to bring, what the walk is about. Keep the group together. Stop for breaks as needed. Keep a good pace. Have a contact. A PLB is not needed on a Great North Walk day trip but is advised when going to Federation.

So it seems to me that most of us have knowledge of standards and attempt to meet them.

The big problems with the OV words are that they are too cumbersome, 80% are not needed, they are to hard to meet, and simply do not work. This is perhaps due to a lack of meaningful consultation with peak bushwalking groups and interested people.

I have a 2010 Department of Sustainability and Environment report Australian Walking Track Grading System. Page 9 says:
"Three and a half years of work, three major studies, 1898 consumer interviews and two years from the Technical Reference Group to get to where we are now."
So there was meaningful consultation over time to get what I believe is a pretty good result. In my view this sort of consultation will result in a much better standard.

I've read every post on this thread, and there's a massive amount of excellent advice, including those who oppose the OV standard. It's easy to see why. Most posters are passionate bushwalkers with a lot of experience. Such views require very serious consideration.

So maybe the focus should be on using these and other views from peak bodies to make our own standard, something workable, good for clubs, Meet-ups and the like. Something is needed that can cater for all situations, Perth day walks to VMTC. Instead of wailing about the OV words (justified, in my view) and discussing laws, why not a DIY approach, where experts such as those who posted above make a functional bushwalking standard?

This is the direction to get a better result.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:17 am

rcaffin wrote: Legislation can create more uncertainty until a precedent is set. There are none for 'acting in good faith' but plenty for negligence.
Mind boggling belief.
Fortunately, in NSW, the Wrongs Act covers that completely.

Mind boggling indeed. You again choose not to answer my question. A simply yes or no is all that is required. I think the Wrongs Act has been sufficiently debated and I agree with Lops.
Lophophaps wrote:So maybe the focus should be on using these and other views from peak bodies to make our own standard, something workable, good for clubs, Meet-ups and the like. Something is needed that can cater for all situations, Perth day walks to VMTC. Instead of wailing about the OV words (justified, in my view) and discussing laws, why not a DIY approach, where experts such as those who posted above make a functional bushwalking standard?

This is the direction to get a better result.


This is exactly what I was talking about a few posts ago. There should be enough brains trust within clubs to produce something professional in application and appearance which will be held to scrutiny and accepted by insurers and land managers. Don't throw out the OV words entirely. There is still some good stuff there. May I also suggest a sit down with the insurance company. Let them know what you intend to do and get some feedback as to the extent required by them. Telling them the problems you have with the AAS or the proposed AAAS may also help but if you do nothing then the standard imposed by OV will be the only one they have to work with. ATHRA (horse trail riding association) has done this already. Their 'trail boss' course is recognised by insurers to be 'industry standard' and accepted for commercial operators. My own personal motto is to be part of the solution and not the problem.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:24 am

May I also suggest a sit down with the insurance company. Let them know what you intend to do and get some feedback as to the extent required by them.
Ah well, I think the Confederation of Bushwalking Clubs NSW did this 30 or 40 years ago (or more?). That was a major reason the Confed was formed: to negotiate a bulk deal with the insurers. That was done for all the affiliated NSW Clubs. Very old hat.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:39 am

rcaffin wrote: May I also suggest a sit down with the insurance company. Let them know what you intend to do and get some feedback as to the extent required by them.
Ah well, I think the Confederation of Bushwalking Clubs NSW did this 30 or 40 years ago (or more?). That was a major reason the Confed was formed: to negotiate a bulk deal with the insurers. That was done for all the affiliated NSW Clubs. Very old hat.


40 years ago or more? Serious! Much has changed in that time. I think an update to fit in with the present day is much overdue. Some people like to live in the past and resist any change. I think this debate and anything that comes out of it to benefit clubs requires some forward thinking people.

Still waiting for my answer Roger although I understand why it would be hard for you to give one. I fully expect you to ignore it just as you always do when the answer is a no win either way for you.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:56 am

Ok, let me edit that to say the Confed STARTED working with an insurance company 30 - 40 years ago or more. As far as I know, the deal is renegotiated each year with the insurance Co. Any changes to the insurance Co requirements are handled each year. The Confed even has one person on the mgt c'tee dedicated to that task.
Could it be that the NSW organisation is so far ahead of Victoria? So it would seem.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:14 am

rcaffin wrote:Could it be that the NSW organisation is so far ahead of Victoria? So it would seem.


There is really no need to start any state vs state argument. I see this as a national issue affecting all states and being united is a better approach. I am sure your Victorian brothers would be quite offended with your attitude toward them. I moved to Victoria from NSW and there are plenty of problems worth noting in some clubs within that state. I really cannot see your attitude to be far ahead of anyone unless we are talking about the time when the earth was still flat.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby tom_brennan » Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:31 pm

Insurance for bushwalking clubs across Australia is now handled nationally by Bushwalking Australia, the peak body for bushwalking in Australia. Its members are the various state associations of bushwalking clubs (plus NT - ACT clubs are affiliated with Bushwalking NSW).

Incidentally, Bushwalking Australia does have a draft policy on the AAAS.
http://www.bushwalkingaustralia.org/ima ... -_AAAS.pdf
Bushwalking NSW - http://bushwalkingnsw.com
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Thu 22 Mar, 2018 5:13 pm

We have an outcome. Volunteer bushwalkers are NOT required to comply with the AAAS

Bushwalking Victoria has analysed the AAAS Core and Bushwalking Standards and consider that most of the content is either not relevant to or far exceeds the needs of volunteer bushwalking activities.

The AAAS are designated as "voluntary" and are not enacted or authorised by any Act of Parliament or other legislative instrument.

The Victorian Minister for Sport, John Eren MP, has advised that there is no current intention to mandate the use of the AAAS on behalf of relevant jurisdictions, including the Department of Health and Human Services, Parks Victoria and the Department of Environment, Water, Land and Planning.

The Victorian Minister for Energy, Environment & Climate Change, Lily D'Ambrosio MP, has advised that on their own, the standards have no legal status and there is no requirement to comply with them.

Volunteer bushwalkers cannot and should not be required to comply with the Core AAAS, Bushwalking AAAS or Camping AAAS.

Any attempts in the future to do so will be vigorously opposed, as will any other similar restrictions or impediments that would enable commercial interests to override the rights of community-based clubs to access and enjoy public land.

Community based volunteer bushwalking trip leaders will continue to responsibly manage trip safety by using and contributing to the body of knowledge that informs and supports safe and enjoyable bushwalking.

Our full statement on the AAAS is here http://bit.ly/BWV-AAAS-Statement

Peter Campbell
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Thu 22 Mar, 2018 6:22 pm

Unbelievable sanity from a pollie.

So we may confidently expect that in about 2 months time some junior bureaucrat will be knocking at our doors demanding that all bushwalking clubs sign up to these new AAAS idiocies. After all, they have been through a full consultative process with everyone's opinions integrated, and they are now 'Regulation'. Dire veiled consequences will be hinted at if we fail to grovel.

Another Trumpism ...

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