AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby michael_p » Wed 06 Sep, 2017 9:05 am

the standards will be voluntary and will rarely apply to amateur groups.

Rarely....Yeah right. :x Typical bureaucratic weasel words that are used later to justify ever encroaching regulation.
One foot in front of the other.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Wed 06 Sep, 2017 9:09 am

the standards will be voluntary and will rarely apply to amateur groups.

That has to be changed to 'will never ever apply to amateur groups'.
The alternative is a Police State.

Cheers
Roger
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 06 Sep, 2017 11:06 am

Whatever the rules say or the intent is now is probably irrelevant; rules and intent can and often do change. I've seen this many times with either a total change or slow incremental changes. There's one proposed now - the Falls-Hotham walk. A few eco-huts, not much impact. Seats, we all need seats. Parks Victoria huts for staff, then helicopters. Then there's regulation, need to book to avoid overcrowding on much smaller campsites, shrunk due to the management plan. Then the free walker numbers curtailed so that paying walkers have more space. It may not happen like that, but it's possible.

A good way to avoid the AAS becoming mandatory for clubs and the like is legislation, as this can only be changed with a vote in parliament. We can also seek to have the adoption made sensible.

Above I said “I'd like to see an analysis of SAR figures detailing how many incidents are caused by inept leadership.” It would also be good to see how many bushwalkers from clubs became lost and required a formal SAR. My long experience is that clubs are managing just fine, with many undertaking instruction and mentoring. I’ve done this, and it worked well. We covered much of the points in the AAS, but informally, much less time spent.

The AAS is at
https://outdoorsvictoria.org.au/wp-cont ... ar2016.pdf
Look at this
https://outdoorsvictoria.org.au/resources/background/
“The lack of consistency between the groups conducting adventure activities creates difficulties for land managers monitoring the environmental effect of such activities. One very good example of variation in acceptable standards is the Department of Education’s Outdoor Adventure Activity Guidelines requirements for commercial operators and those expected of community groups which have had little or no consistency.”

Que? What difficulties? Further, clubs and many informal groups have similar standards, modified to suit the people. For example, The Gung-Ho BWC says that an easy weekend trip is 60-90 kilometres with no more than 2000 metres of climbing each day. The Geriatric BWC says that a hard walk is up to 5 kilometres, suitable for Zimmer frames and mainly flat.

See this
https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/SISOBWG507A
for an idea about how to go bushwalking. I clearly recall Dr McCoy saying, “It’s bushwalking, Jim, but not as we know it.” Beam me up Scotty.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Wed 06 Sep, 2017 11:49 am

Your relation of the commercial ingress with Falls-Hotham highlights a bigger issue. People who use and have an affinity for wild places need to get involved! Not just when any particular direction looks like it may send the bureaucrats to one's own back yard. If there weren't generalised state or national commercial standards, we wouldn't have a discussion about these applying to clubs.

My only comment, when asked to do so, was to pass on concern that a push for standardised training was implemented. Or more to the point, training that effectively leaves one (government endorsed) mode of entry to outdoor guiding. For bushwalking, nothing else isn't already in place, we don't operate in the third world.

My personal experience of (public) club walks and activities was on walks mostly occupied and lead by younger people. More often than not other uni students and, it seemed, often with some other advantage in mind than the social occasion. As mentioned, the many skills pertinent to life and resume. I understand many of the older ones had split into their own groups. They would reside at AGM's and be most vocal in resistance to change. Goodness me, a 'poll' would have been of a small number of resident opinions, rarely asked as a club.. I understand the demographic has changed and clubs are aging? What benefit is a club when loose groups can gather from facebook or a number of other introductions? What particular attraction will clubs afford, other than to meet us old timers. Given to ask what planet you are in fact on..

Did Bushwalking Victoria ask constituents, provide a range of real-case scenarios, paint outcomes in a neutral light? Iv'e only recently heard of BW Tasmania, in relation to their backing commercial huts on the SCT.. Outstanding.. only recently heard.. And the contribution seemed for all intents and purposes, doesn't effect us, who cares..
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Thu 07 Sep, 2017 11:57 am

Outdoors Victoria have finally put out a media release http://bit.ly/2017-09-Outdoors-Vic-AAAS

However, their claims are incorrect.

Australian AAS will reduce red tape


Outdoors Victoria still refuses to acknowledge that volunteer bushwalking trips and parties do have "dependent participants" (varies depending on who is on the trip), or that volunteer trip leaders provide an appropriate standard of care to them. It is the standard of care provided that is important, not the duty of care. The AAAS will significantly increase the compliance burden to volunteer bushwalkers if we are captured by it.

There are no proposed changes to existing public land arrangements in Victoria

There are already some examples of Parks Vic requiring volunteer groups to comply with existing AAS by completing their "Group Activity Statement" http://bit.ly/ParksVic-GAS-AAS. If the AAAS applies to volunteers than there will be nothing to stop them requiring compliance in the future.

There is no requirement for formal training courses or qualifications in the Australian AAS
.

It would be extremely difficult for the volunteers who run clubs and lead bushwalks to demonstrate compliance with the national competency units in the new standards. Bushwalkers would need 588 hours to complete all units for the proposed new "bushwalking standard".

There is no realistic method by which volunteer bushwalkers can "comply with the AAAS by different ways".

The solution is simple: The AAAS must state that they don't apply to volunteers.

Given there is apparent agreement from two Victorian ministers (Minister for Energy, Environment and Climate Change & Minister for Sport) its very suprising that this simple solution is being so fiercely resisted.

Over 3000 people have now signed our petition so there is widespread concern about AAAS impacts http://bit.ly/AAAS-petition
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Mon 11 Sep, 2017 3:11 pm

I have kept away from this topic for a bit, mainly because it will not affect me as I will no longer have anything to do with any club. I can see some areas for concern but after reading the documentation I do not see the need for alarmist concern. Do bushwalking clubs have dependent participants? Yes, sometimes. Do the leaders of a bushwalk on behalf of a club have a duty of care to the dependent participants? Yes. Does the Wrongs Act apply to a volunteer leader who negligently ignores or is unable to determine the signs of hypothermia for example? I don't think so. Can the leaders of a bushwalk be held accountable for liability under negligence? Yes. Should these leaders be able to demonstrate and ability to perform functions associated with leading a particular activity? Yes. Has an AAS been in existence already for a number of years? Yes. Has it had any affect on operations. NO. It is up to the club to ensure leaders are suitably qualified and a formalised process, whereby leaders can demonstrate to the club their ability in each proficiency, protects the club from negligence claims. Parks Victoria requires proof of public liability for commercial operations only. Bushwalking clubs should have insurance already (why? - to protect from liability claims) and having recently prepared extensive documentation for a commercial operator I can say it is not too difficult and beyond the scope of of at least one person in a club. The insurance company was most happy to accept prior experience with a properly prepared risk assessment and detailed plan of activities, which proved to Parks and the insurer that the company was more than suitable. No AAS was ever mentioned. I recently did some volunteer work with Parks Vic and they were more than happy to accept my past experience driving 4wd's and using a chainsaw. Tick a box qualifications are more about protecting people from liability so when something does go wrong the insurance companies will pay out. You of course would not want to be personally liable. I have looked at the competencies and guidelines for leaders on the current AAS for Victoria and can only say I would hope all community bushwalking groups can say their leaders are up to or better than that standard for the sake of those who are dependent. I would suggest a newbie's expectation would be similar. I know some of what I have said may have put me at odds with many I have great respect for on this forum. It is not personal, just my view and I respect others rights to have an alternate view. I think I am in the NO camp for now but conclusive argument, not speculation or conjecture, may sway me.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Mark F » Mon 11 Sep, 2017 5:12 pm

Xplora wrote:Tick a box qualifications are more about protecting people from liability so when something does go wrong the insurance companies will pay out.


The courts will often ascribe a greater duty of care to people with qualifications compared to those without in the same circumstances. A bit of a conundrum. Land managers want the quals to enable access so their butts are covered but in the event of a pear shaped outcome quals may come back to haunt the holder. I expect insurance companies will also want the quals once they exist as it provides a more reliable and more easily controlled (read tick box) solution rather than have to evaluate claimed experience.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Mon 11 Sep, 2017 7:24 pm

Has an AAS been in existence already for a number of years? Yes.
Errr... Really?
I am not aware of this happening in NSW. Maybe in Vic?

Cheers
Roger
PS: I cannot imagine many NSW walkers taking the slightest notice of this idiocy. We have a long history of ignoring 'authority' in NSW. :mrgreen:
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 7:09 am

rcaffin wrote:Has an AAS been in existence already for a number of years? Yes.
Errr... Really?
I am not aware of this happening in NSW. Maybe in Vic?

Cheers
Roger
PS: I cannot imagine many NSW walkers taking the slightest notice of this idiocy. We have a long history of ignoring 'authority' in NSW. :mrgreen:


Victoria has had AAS for 13 years. Cannot say how long for NSW but they have AAS also and it did not happen last week. Only the ACT and NT do not have an AAS. How has this affected clubs to date? 13 years in Victoria and really nothing much. If the plan is to ignore it anyway then there is little point getting riled up about it. Personally, I can see considerable benefit for bushwalking clubs moving now toward compliance with a standard. Why do clubs have to hold public liability insurance? If you accept the fact a person or a club can be held liable for negligence then you should accept a standard for leadership when you have dependent persons. If litigation is brought about on the basis of negligence (not contract) then these standards are your biggest friend if you can show you adhere to them in practise. It puts all on a level playing field with the rules of the game in their hand. None of this would be a problem if it not for the litigious society we have become. Often the only difference between a club and a commercial group is a contract and exchange of money. Leaders still have a duty of care. It is accepted that in groups of experienced people there is less duty of care. When I take friends into the bush and they are not experienced then I have a duty of care regardless of not being a club. It is serious stuff when you are potentially responsible for the life of another. I have been in that situation more than once. I am certain most clubs will have guidelines for leadership but are they good enough? Could they be better? Agreeing to a minimum standard is a good start. Ensuring that minimum standard is applicable is also something you should pursue and I am with you on that point. Saying you will just ignore any standard is simply reckless in this day and age.

Mark F wrote:
The courts will often ascribe a greater duty of care to people with qualifications compared to those without in the same circumstances. A bit of a conundrum. Land managers want the quals to enable access so their butts are covered but in the event of a pear shaped outcome quals may come back to haunt the holder. I expect insurance companies will also want the quals once they exist as it provides a more reliable and more easily controlled (read tick box) solution rather than have to evaluate claimed experience.


The courts ascribe a greater duty of care to those who put them forward as experts. This could be simply 'I have 40 years experience leading people on bushwalks'. Unless you are working for or with the Land manager qualifications are not sought and I cannot see a day when any land manager will be able to shut out any class of person because they do not have the right piece of paper unless they are doing it for money. Yes, qualifications are to protect land managers from litigation just as qualifications of a bushwalk leader will protect the club. The leader is mostly covered against litigation under the banner of the club insurance but if it can be shown the club does not employ proper standards for leadership then the insurance company may not pay. Such and example would be were a remote area first aid certificate is considered appropriate and the leader has basic only. Or the leader does not have extensive off track navigation on a walk where that is needed. Tick a box risk management aids the insurance company even more than qualifications. Risk management is dynamic and insurance companies know this. They like it when you show you adapt to changing risks or identify new risks. They can tell if you have no understanding of risk assessment and then you do not get your insurance cover. If a claim is made and you can show all reasonable precautions were taken then you are in the clear. They may pay the claim or fight it in court. Adventure sports have an inherent risk and if misadventure can be demonstrated to not be caused by negligence then that is a defense. Induction briefings and leader briefings prior to a walk tick many boxes. Specific risks can be mentioned at those briefings. e.g. With the warmer weather be mindful of snakes. We advise you wear gaters and if you see a snake..........etc.

I feel it is far better to be prepared in advance than ignore it then try to invent stuff after it has hit the fan. This is the world we have to live in so move on. Get yourself organised now. Many years ago I worked for an outdoor company and they were writing competencies for activities and doing training. A club can do that as well and I suspect many already are. It is a bit like the boy scout badges. You want your people to grow and be self reliant then train them. When I did my dive course I was quite impressed with the way the process was set out. Do it on paper, reviewed then demonstrated in the water, do it yourself while being observed. Write a training guide or push for one to be available to all clubs.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 7:27 am

Hi Xplora

We seem to be approaching this whole matter with two completely opposite mind-sets.

First of all, we do NOT see bushwalking as an 'adventure sport'. It's a recreation, something we do to enjoy the bush. We do not want 'adventure' at all. There is a huge difference between this and what a commercial adventure group does.

Second, we do not place anywhere near the emphasis on 'leadership' which you are expecting. A group of friends go on a walk together, with each person being entirely responsible for him/herself. To be sure, sometimes one person may organise the route or the logistics of the walk, but that person does not put themself forward as an 'expert' and does not accept the liability for the whole party the way a commercial guide does. Every person on that walk is an independent volunteer.

Most clubs do in fact have some assessment processes, gear recommendations, and may even have a walk briefing checklist. But I think you will find that there is still that difference in mind-set between a formal bureaucratic checklist and what a club does. Ticking boxes ... is just so useless. All these people are VOLUNTEERS out for their own enjoyment.

Cheers
Roger
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 10:50 am

There is no distinction between commercial and non-commercial activities in the proposed standards, therefore, no distinction for volunteers?

The concern is obvious, however, in not being particularly excluded, that when these 'guidelines' are adopted by land managers, which they are and will be, they are no longer 'guidelines'. They are compulsory or you very likely don't get access.

Will they be compulsory for clubs using national parks? Nothing to stop this happening? There's no getting around this and this fact really nullifies the proponents attempt to try to convince anyone they are truly 'guidelines'. Just as they wont be for 'commercial' leaders. In essence they wont be guidelines for anyone. If it wasn't such a minefield, i'm sure they could be demanded of anyone, club or not, every group has someone 'dependent'. I'm also not sure it matters whether they are AAS or AAAS, though a national standard will likely give pace to change?

Despite that some clubs may need to drag themselves into this century, this is a dismal, weak way for that to happen. One i'm sure many bushwalkers from a business background, perhaps the public service, will recognise only too well.


-Unfortunately (for all of us), in a business setting, companies can thrive off being at the forefront of compliance, even involved in implementing.. ie. the proponents 'expert panel'-
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 1:16 pm

rcaffin wrote:Hi Xplora

We seem to be approaching this whole matter with two completely opposite mind-sets.

Likely we are. I am outside the box and am looking at things from both sides of the argument. I feel you are too close or your view is clouded. I have commercially guided people before and led groups of individuals. I have trained people and assessed their skills, written training lessons, risk assessments, emergency strategies and liaised with authorities and insurance providers. My experience has also led me to court for civil and criminal matters as a witness. I can see these guidelines may become mandatory to affect insurance if clubs do not embrace them now. If you want your club to fold then just ignore it.

rcaffin wrote:First of all, we do NOT see bushwalking as an 'adventure sport'. It's a recreation, something we do to enjoy the bush. We do not want 'adventure' at all. There is a huge difference between this and what a commercial adventure group does.

Speak for yourself. Bushwalking is an adventure for me and many others. I think you are splitting hairs. The title is Adventure Activity anyway and if walking something like the AAWT is not an adventure then what is it? Previously I stated the only real difference between a commercial group and a club is the payment of money for a contracted service. There is still a duty of care when dependent people are involved. There is a group leader and subordinate leaders. There can be a level of experience equal to a leader but someone has to be in charge and make a decision when it hits the fan.

rcaffin wrote:Second, we do not place anywhere near the emphasis on 'leadership' which you are expecting.

More the pity and the likely downfall of clubs generally.
rcaffin wrote:A group of friends go on a walk together, with each person being entirely responsible for him/herself. To be sure, sometimes one person may organise the route or the logistics of the walk, but that person does not put themself forward as an 'expert' and does not accept the liability for the whole party the way a commercial guide does. Every person on that walk is an independent volunteer.

Absolute bollocks and the last sentence shows how little you understand about this whole thing. Are you suggesting each person randomly turns up at the same start point and walks the same track? That would mean, given any emergency incident you could have 10 people all deciding what to do or heading off on their own. To be clear, I am not talking about a group of experienced people from a club getting together for a walk. I have said the duty of care is considered less for that. Clubs take inexperienced people out all the time and they have their own set of rules governing how it is done. That is when the duty of care is the same as for a commercial operator. It could be a long time member who has never done a canyon. Still dependent on leadership. I have seen some pretty woeful examples of leadership from community organisations and commercial enterprises which presented potential danger. All of this is a matter of assigning blame if there is such or who should take responsibility when something goes wrong. It is all about legal matters. If a club does not appoint a person to be in charge of any official club outing then they are foolish and I seriously doubt that happens. It may be done casually but make no bones about it, when something goes wrong it will be that person they will be looking hard at and then they will be asking the club for records of walks led, training done, certificates held and other incidents involving that leader to name a few. The will look at the group size, age, experience, fitness, ratio of leaders to followers, equipment, clothing, briefing, communication and documented emergency strategy. If you are unable to provide satisfactory documentation then you may find your insurance invalid.

rcaffin wrote:Most clubs do in fact have some assessment processes, gear recommendations, and may even have a walk briefing checklist. But I think you will find that there is still that difference in mind-set between a formal bureaucratic checklist and what a club does. Ticking boxes ... is just so useless. All these people are VOLUNTEERS out for their own enjoyment.


This is true but ALL clubs should have an assessment process etc. This is not a bureaucratic checklist but it does formalise the process so we are all on level ground with the same rules. It is a guide to help you form your own assessment process and a standard which can be applied to everyone. You leave one club and take your accreditation with you. The club can have its own vetting on top of that. Nothing will stop people enjoying themselves and maybe people will feel a bit safer knowing their leaders conform to the standard. The reality is you probably are already but maybe some are not. Clubs will have to move forward with this world or be lost. I won't affect me either way. Embracing these standards may also reduce your liability insurance. I am not against people going out and having fun with club mates but I can see how things are changing and how clubs can no longer (and will no longer) be exempt from some of these changes. My advice is to prepare now for the inevitable. By all means have your say and try to effect some wordage change but if you consider a club not to be held, by law, responsible for any of its members then do nothing. Sit on your hands, cancel your existing insurance. What you should be doing now is find out how your club can work within these guidelines and once you have done that you can negotiate a reduced premium with your insurance company. That will make the members happy.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 1:40 pm

The title is Adventure Activity anyway and if walking something like the AAWT is not an adventure then what is it?
Just so. For most of us it is NOT an Adventure. It is a recreation. If Adventure means significant levels of risk, we don't want to know about it.
In fact, if a new club member shows a bit too much inclination to risk and adventure, you might find the club will decline their membership and suggest they go elsewhere.

Clubs take inexperienced people out all the time and they have their own set of rules governing how it is done.
I can see how you reach this idea, but I note that you have come at this from the commercial viewpoint. Basically, for most clubs, your statement is TOTALLY WRONG.

Clubs do NOT take inexperienced people out. You have this idea that the Club is doing these things, but it is not. A new member might apply to join a walk organised by someone (called the 'leader'), but it is then up to that leader to decide whether the new member is welcome or not. It may be that the leader might think that the walk is a bit too hard for the inexperienced new member, but that is HIS judgement. At no stage does the leader accept any legal liability for the new member.

Every person on that walk is an independent volunteer.
Absolute bollocks and the last sentence shows how little you understand about this whole thing. Are you suggesting each person randomly turns up at the same start point and walks the same track?

Chuckle. Of course I have no understanding of the whole thing. I am just the Editor for The Bushwalker, the quarterly magazine of Bushwalking NSW (formerly The Confederation). No knowledge of Clubs and bushwalking at all.

All of this is a matter of assigning blame if there is such or who should take responsibility when something goes wrong.
Just so, but you can NOT assign 'blame' to a volunteer under NSW law. Volunteers are expressly excluded from being blamed. If this was not so, you would have no Rural Fire Brigade, no State Emergency Services, and so on. All volunteers.

Cheers
Roger
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 1:52 pm

Xplora wrote: I have commercially guided people before and led groups of individuals. I have trained people and assessed their skills, written training lessons, risk assessments, emergency strategies and liaised with authorities and insurance providers. My experience has also led me to court for civil and criminal matters as a witness..
.... snip .....
ALL clubs should have an assessment process etc. This is not a bureaucratic checklist but it does formalise the process so we are all on level ground with the same rules. It is a guide to help you form your own assessment process and a standard which can be applied to everyone. You leave one club and take your accreditation with you.
....

@Xplora.

I have also guided people commercially (and possess certifications on which the proposed AAAS is partially based). On the surface it seems like a great idea to have these standards but who is going to organise and manage the assessment process so unpaid volunteer bushwalking leaders can get "certified" ?

Its going to be up to volunteer unpaid club committees to organize this and then the leaders themselves will need to make themselves available for a "certification day or likely multiple days".

Who pays for the qualified assessor to come in and access the leaders ? (You can see why the commercial organizations are rubbing their hands as its likely they who will be the paid assessors).

What if some of the leaders don't possess all the competencies to get certified ? Who pays for the expensive training (again likely performed by commercial organisations) to bring them up to the standard ?

Who is likely to lead a bushwalking trip if they need to pay several hundreds (perhaps thousands) of dollars to get certified ?

As I see it the most likely result is many bushwalking clubs (with the exception of the most well funded and organised) will just give up and their members will walk unofficially.

The end result being we lose one of the key institutions that has promoted and sustained bushwalking for over a century. "the bushwalking club". Again likely why commercial organisations are promoting this AAAS. If there are no clubs they likely see many people will pay to be guided on some of the longer more remote walks.

Bushwalking clubs have been successfully self assessing and self regulating for decades. As Lophophaps said, show me the stats of the rescues and accidents that have happened as a result of unskilled and/or reckless bushwalking club leaders... I bet there are very few.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 2:03 pm

the most likely result is many bushwalking clubs (with the exception of the most well funded and organised) will just give up and their members will walk unofficially.
Oh, this started happening in NSW after the last attempt at the AAAS. Bear in mind that at least some Clubs have lawyers amongst their enthusiastic members ... They just redefined a few words to suit. :wink:
(Well funded???? By whom????)

the leaders themselves will need to make themselves available for a "certification day or likely multiple days".
And the likely reaction of most older 'leaders' who have been 'leading' walks for the last 10 - 20 )30?) years? Probably along the lines of 'get stu**ed'. And why should they bother with any of that stuff anyhow? They are not going to stop walking, and their friends are not going to stop walking with them.

Volunteer Bushwalking Clubs are just so far away from commercial adventure operators that there is simply no common organisational ground at all.

Cheers
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 2:59 pm

Deleted. Was a bit exaggerated and alarmist. :lol:

Wasn't really necessary to make the point.
Last edited by wildwanderer on Tue 12 Sep, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 6:31 pm

I had a conversation with some people in the industry today and what is being portrayed by some on these pages is a massive over reaction. I would not say my point of view is coming from the commercial operator side. I don't like them much. I don't like clubs much either. I look pragmatically at the information provided. Roger, your statements are fully of hyperbole and emotion. You seem to have no idea of the impending or simply say you will ignore it. I care little if you edit a magazine and neither will anyone formulating the guidelines of this standard or providing insurance. Your arguments so far are not convincing to me and I am way more sympathetic. I know inexperienced people who have joined clubs and I know clubs who invite inexperienced people. You say under law you cannot assign blame but you can assign negligence under law. Don't start a legal battle with me. If you cannot understand the legal implications of this standard then you should not comment further on them. All of this is a legal matter. You can have all the experience you want editing a magazine but it means nothing when you have to go to court. I am not making the rules, just telling you the writing is on the wall. From my discussions today it will not be hard or expensive for clubs to comply. Prior experience is considered acceptable. Compliance will actually be beneficial but I understand some people resist change. Try to find ways clubs can work with this standard before it is too late. Clubs aren't for me but I know they benefit many. Maybe I should have just left this one alone but I am actually trying to help from a very impartial stand point.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 7:37 pm

Don't start a legal battle with me.
I couldn't be bothered.
FYI: I have represented my volunteer organisation in court once (not a bushwalking club), against a lawyer. The lawyer himself was sueing us. But he did not understand the difference between a for-profit company and an Incorporated Association
I won.

Cheers
Roger
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby JohnStrider » Tue 12 Sep, 2017 11:25 pm

Well, this has certainly stirred the pot amongst bushwalking clubs, amateur groups and commercial companies alike.

In my opinion, and this is the opinion of someone who runs a MeetUp group here in Melbourne, I am neither here nor there about this. In fact, when I first found out about it, it didn't bother me one bit. As someone who hikes regularly, I see some outlandish behaviour by people who come hiking with me and it's clear that there is a general lack of disrespect for the outdoors when it comes to safety for yourself and the safety of others. People just don't get it which is we there are so many instances of people going places where they have no idea what they are in for and then end up on Channel Seven news being rescued by the SES.

Given my group has just under 3,500 people in it, liability insurance has always been at the forefront of my thinking. By nature, I am a safe person and the structure and format we have around the safety of our group appears to have worked in the first 12 months of our group's existence. However, all it takes is for one person to hurt themselves and blame me or one of my organisers and then Pandora's box opens up.

Conversely, I truly don't believe it will get up. It might mean the end for a lot of these groups, but I guess it might weed out those who aren't all that serious about it. Should it pass, I would expect the government to offer the volunteer groups something in return by way of assistance. What that might look like I'm not too sure.

In short, I'm not sure if this will go ahead but it really wouldn't bother me if it did. I am more than willing to put myself through the necessaries to comply.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 6:02 am

JohnStrider wrote:Conversely, I truly don't believe it will get up. It might mean the end for a lot of these groups, but I guess it might weed out those who aren't all that serious about it. Should it pass, I would expect the government to offer the volunteer groups something in return by way of assistance. What that might look like I'm not too sure.


It exists already in every state, not the territories, but not as legislation and all they are seeking is to make it a national standard. It remains to be seen how or if each state adopts it but the insurance companies and land managers are already adopting the current guidelines. While it has had no effect on private operations to date (and that may continue to be the case) there will come a time when it will and better to be prepared in advance. It is really only a legal matter and should not affect the manner any club or private groups runs its operations once set up. Experienced clubs are doing it already in a less formal manner and should be able to continue that. The problem will be new groups applying for insurance or old groups with current insurance and their practises are called into question (usually after an incident where the insurance company has become involved). For old clubs, they will then have to demonstrate compliance with the standard or they may have their insurance terminated. End of club.

I was informed yesterday of a number of things pertaining to the draft guidelines.
[*]Firstly the course outline was pulled from the TAFE course. It is a starting point and a guide to the skills. It may not represent the manner clubs acquire or present this type of information and training. You can download the TAFE course and modify it to your own requirements or have an accredited trainer come in and train the trainers.
[*]Prior experience and demonstrated ability will be taken into account in all aspects.
[*]Some land managers are already stipulating incorporated associations agree to comply with the current standard for their state as a condition of entry. This will be difficult to enforce and I suspect it is more about butt covering than stopping people.

As an individual I also count myself as a very safe person but I am still liable for negligence or may have to show I was not negligent should someone I invite on a walk is hurt. Some negligence is a criminal matter. Manslaughter for instance is death caused by a negligent act. Most negligence is dealt with in civil court and without insurance to cover this I could be held personally liable for damages. I am not sure how a meet a group would obtain insurance without becoming an incorporated association and it would be very expensive for an individual to bear the cost for the walks they lead.
The last club I was a member of, a founding member, started the same way as any other. I said I would stay as long as it was fun. Not many people give consideration to the legal aspects except for the necessary constitution, office bearers and the obligatory insurance which was only thought of as a necessary evil. The idea of clubs is for like minded people to get together and enjoy the things they like and when it stops being fun they leave or start their own club. I don't see any of this impacting on clubs to the point people are not having fun but it may require some effort in the start up.

When you obtain public liability insurance it is mostly with a broker or agent who is onselling a product from an insurance provider such as Lloyd's of London. The insurance provider agrees to allow the agent to determine the criteria and set the fee (within parameters). If the agent secures too many bad risks then they will have to pay more to the insurance provider. Insurance companies are extremely reactive and all adventure activities have come under considerable scrutiny due to the number of claims. You may consider bushwalking to be relatively safe but insurance companies, who are fed information from a wider source, do not consider one bushwalking organisation to be different to another. Potentially all can come to grief. I managed to reduce a premium for a start up guiding business by around $5000 pa with proper documentation of experience and qualifications. One basic qualification was the tipping point. Of course all the other stuff like risk assessment and emergency strategies portrayed these people as professional in their approach and a good risk. Bushwalking clubs need to portray themselves as a good risk also. If those in charge of clubs cannot get their head around this then it is time for them to step aside and allow someone who does take over. I feel OV and others driving this can see how things are going in these areas and will actually be assisting clubs long term to stay afloat and function. Their goal is not simply making things safer. It is also about making sure things do not get priced out of existence due to inflated insurance premiums. It is not just for commercial groups, clubs will start feeling the pain as it flows on.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby tom_brennan » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 12:32 pm

Xplora wrote: but the insurance companies and land managers are already adopting the current guidelines.


Xplora wrote:Some land managers are already stipulating incorporated associations agree to comply with the current standard for their state as a condition of entry.


You've mentioned this a couple of times. Which land managers are already enforcing compliance with the current standard?
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 1:27 pm

Parks Vic Group Activity Form

Tickbox:
The group will meet the conditions of the Adventure Activity Standards, along with any additional specific risk management practices required by my group, e.g.: the state school required Safety Guidelines for Education Outdoors; the Scouts Adventurous Activities Policy.


No big deal, never, just whatever size people will take at any instance. Not a big deal other than contributing to the outcome, made of incremental 'little deals'.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 2:10 pm

tom_brennan wrote:
Xplora wrote: but the insurance companies and land managers are already adopting the current guidelines.


Xplora wrote:Some land managers are already stipulating incorporated associations agree to comply with the current standard for their state as a condition of entry.


You've mentioned this a couple of times. Which land managers are already enforcing compliance with the current standard?
From what I understand, all NP's are requiring commercial operators, schools and TAFE to comply with the standard for each state and Parks Vic have included the likes of clubs on official club walks such as Nuts has indicated. It is not something enforced on clubs but if they do not comply then PV has some recourse. There is more to the standard than just leadership. Group size, toileting and waste, minimal impact etc. all of which clubs do now in the main. I suspect PV are more interested in clubs doing the right thing in the park and looking after it than leaders having formal qualifications or the club having risk management and emergency plans but again it is there to cover their butt. Generally PV take a second seat when it comes to search and rescue as the SES now have control of that.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwanderer » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 2:51 pm

Xplora wrote:From my discussions today it will not be hard or expensive for clubs to comply.


Appreciate all the information you have provided. Your above statement was quite interesting as its my key concern. i.e that the certifying will be extremely expensive for clubs and most will not be able to afford it.

Can you give more information on why you believe it wont be expensive ?

From my perspective. If the proposed AAAS requires competences that are based on the current TAFE outdoor rec standard then for a club to certify and be in compliance with the proposed AAAS they will need to

a) pay for a certified (commercial) trainer to come in and train a couple of senior members up to certified instructor level. (so the club instructors can then certify their walk leaders). This will surely cost many thousands of dollars especially if your including canyoning/abseling in the certification to instructor level.
or
b) pay for a certified (commercial) instructor to assess and certify each walk leader. (again likely several hundred, maybe a thousand+ dollars per leader).

If the government is going to subsidize the certification then that could be a solution to this ???
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 5:32 pm

rcaffin wrote:Has an AAS been in existence already for a number of years? Yes.
Errr... Really?
I am not aware of this happening in NSW. Maybe in Vic?

Cheers
Roger
PS: I cannot imagine many NSW walkers taking the slightest notice of this idiocy. We have a long history of ignoring 'authority' in NSW. :mrgreen:


Doing some reading Roger. Is this the magazine you edit?
http://www.bushwalkingnsw.org.au/bushwa ... Nov-15.pdf I wonder what information came out of that conference.
wildwanderer wrote:
Can you give more information on why you believe it wont be expensive ?

I have been talking to people in the industry and reading information provided by Outdoor Associations in various states. Help is already being offered for clubs to self comply with the current standards. Prior experience and knowledge will be taken into account. It will be more about formalising a register of skills and training based on a number of competencies.

wildwanderer wrote:From my perspective. If the proposed AAAS requires competences that are based on the current TAFE outdoor

The draft document ripped the TAFE modules as a guide. This is all in the discussion stage and they needed something to start with. See some comments on another forum here from someone involved in writing the NSW AAS. (Exowain) https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/new-s ... st-3383716
My feeling is the national standard will follow similar and allow clubs with experienced people to self manage.

wildwanderer wrote:rec standard then for a club to certify and be in compliance with the proposed AAAS they will need to

a) pay for a certified (commercial) trainer to come in and train a couple of senior members up to certified instructor level. (so the club instructors can then certify their walk leaders). This will surely cost many thousands of dollars especially if your including canyoning/abseling in the certification to instructor level.
or
b) pay for a certified (commercial) instructor to assess and certify each walk leader. (again likely several hundred, maybe a thousand+ dollars per leader).

This of course may be an option for some activities and some clubs but as I have said, I doubt it will come to that. Resources are already available for clubs to assist them with the current guidelines. I would image similar will be made available if a national standard is adopted.

Joe Malpas, President, Perth Bushwalking Club was a presenter in May at conference in WA on this very topic and it would be interesting to hear what his take on things are. Not sure if anyone here has contact with him. I could be wrong in my feeling and how I am interpreting the information and I am still open to be swayed with factual argument which has been lacking from some. I do hope at least I have provoked some deeper thought into the matter so people can put forward a well thought out and logical objection. You will have to counter opinion from people who are way more informed than me. Some may feel I have been a little harsh but I have not said anything with malice. I apologise for any hurt. Considering the abundance of information I have been able to acquire in a few days on this topic and AAS in general, much of it dating back many years, I am surprised organisations are not already suitably prepared. It is clear clubs are already subject to AAS and have been for some time. The ACT follows the Vic model. Not sure about the NT. There have been conferences and debates about the AAS where members of Bushwalking NSW have attended. AAS was discussed at the Bushwalking NSW annual general meeting in May last year. Bushwalking NSW should be up to date with all aspects and be able to provide more than what I have read on this forum.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Wed 13 Sep, 2017 6:30 pm

Hi Xplora

Doing some reading Roger. Is this the magazine you edit?
No, that is an intermittent Newsletter, not the Quarterly magazine.

allow clubs with experienced people to self manage.
Very sensible, and the only thing which will work.

Some years ago NPWS (NSW) produced a requirement that all scheduled Club trips needed to get a permit weeks in advance, probably with a list of attendees.
Club reaction? No more scheduled trips - but lots of Short Notice Walks organised a couple of days in advance.
As the Clubs still had their own internal standards, insurance was not a problem. And, of course, the insurance companies are not stupid: they KNOW what the level of financial risk they are running by accepting affiliated Clubs. They have the statistics.

OK, TAFE modules. I do remember we all had a bit of a chuckle over them the first time.

Cheers
Roger
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Xplora » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 6:09 am

Roger - my point is that Bushwalking NSW appeared to be well aware of the AAS in NSW many years ago and the likely affect it would have on clubs. Given your position in the organisation, I would have thought you would have been across this some time ago yet your comment (which I highlighted) suggests you did not know NSW had AAS. Maybe it was a lack of communication but it seems the writing has been on the wall for a long time. Your assessment of insurance companies is correct. They are not stupid,they receive statistics and they are reactionary. The not stupid part is about them being there for profit, not payout. Insurance companies get nervous when there are a number incidents in an activity and react but increasing premiums or conditions for insurance. Clubs will undertake activities of higher risk than simply walking in the sunshine on a well formed path. Some clubs are more active than others in this but you are all put in the same basket. This is where insurance companies are stupid or inflexible. Nothing will be a problem for those with existing policies until there is a problem. Then it will bite you in the bum. All it will take is a couple of incidents in less prepared clubs and all will be affected. This happened with the horse trail riding industry a few years back and will flow on down to all those little clubs in time. Canyoning is very popular with many Sydney based clubs. Snow Activities with VNPA. All higher risk activities associated with a general bushwalking club and while these clubs may be well prepared, others may start doing it and be less prepared.

My advice (again) is stop trying to fight the introduction of this standard. It already exists in and affects clubs on a state level. Arguments to the effect clubs should not have to comply are wasted. Put your efforts elsewhere. Lobby for free educational resources so that clubs can self manage and still comply. Appoint a person within each club to maintain a data base of training, skills and maybe someone to keep abreast of changes in legislation or other legal matters. Ensure your risk assessments are reviewed regularly and write an emergency strategy for activities if you don't have one already. Push hard for clarity on exactly how and when the standards should apply to clubs. From what I read I think you are doing this already with regard to dependent persons. Accept all club activities may have a dependent person participating. That is to say they may have some experience but they are still dependent on leadership on various levels. Become less casual about the roles and responsibilities of people nominated to lead an activity. The law does not work casually so look after your people and your leaders. Ensure others with experience understand the importance of the nominated leader and the consequences of their decisions. Buck stops with the leader but a good leader knows how to draw on the experience of others and then make an informed decision. Hope you understand I am not against you. Just offering a considered opinion. Clubs aren't for me anymore but I see them good for many. I don't want good clubs to fall because then more people will do it without guidance but clubs need to move forward with the changing times if they want to continue. That is why I weighed in on this debate, even though it will not directly affect me. When training for a fight you need to spar a bit with someone who can throw a punch. All the best to you Roger.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 7:42 am

Hi Xplora

Yes, I understand what you are saying, really. I just refuse to be trampled over by mindless, politicians, bureaucrats and commercial interests, and I encourage others to resist such forces as well.

I dare say most clubs can find someone willing to tackle at least some of the paperwork. And I know most clubs do have internal 'rules' covering training and even membership qualifications. On the other hand, there are other ways of dealing with the idea that all club activities may have a dependent person participating. Some clubs at least have a hard rule that all members MUST sign a legal liability release before they can participate in any 'club' activity. Some clubs have removed the concept of 'leadership' on a trip: all are equal.

The underlying point I am making is that the commercial concept of an organised trip with a liable leader and a number of dependents does not have to be accepted by a Bushwalking Club, a group of volunteers, each of whom is acting independently. We do not have to fit ourselves into their mold, and we should not even try to do so.

To be sure, things will be different for the dive industry and the horse trail riding industry, and so they should be if there is any hint of commercial industry. But people who go diving or horse riding without industry involvement can and should ignore the industry rules. This is not a Police State yet.

Cheers
Roger
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 9:32 am

hmmm, well, the 'guidelines' are already in place, Activity Standards are already expected by land managers, which has consequently made the standards 'rules'.
Despite the bravado, that horse has bolted.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby tom_brennan » Thu 14 Sep, 2017 12:41 pm

Nuts wrote:Parks Vic Group Activity Form


Doesn't seem like there's any compulsion on clubs to comply with this at the moment.

It would be ridiculous if there was. You'd probably have to submit it weeks in advance to ensure it has time to be processed. Then at the last minute you decide to go somewhere else because the weather dictates it.

It would sort of be funny if bushwalking clubs started submitting the form for every trip. Parks Vic would probably need to employ an extra person or two just to deal with the added paperwork!

Xplora wrote:... and Parks Vic have included the likes of clubs on official club walks such as Nuts has indicated. It is not something enforced on clubs but if they do not comply then PV has some recourse.


If it's not enforced/enforceable, then PV has no more recourse against a club than it would against a bunch of friends.
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