AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

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AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Thu 24 Aug, 2017 4:09 pm

Outdoors Victoria is current writing a raft of "Australian Adventure Activity Standards" for a range of activities including bushwalking. However, these standards have been written by and for commercial operators. Bushwalking Victoria does not believe it reasonable or appropriate for these commercial-level standards to apply to volunteer community-based bushwalkers.

We have started this online petition to influence decision makers in the Victoria government http://bit.ly/AAAS-petition

Feel free to sign and share.

Regards, Peter Campbell,
President, Bushwalking Victoria
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby slparker » Fri 25 Aug, 2017 2:52 pm

Hi Peter,
I am a member of a Victorian Bushwalking club. Before I consider signing a petition against the AAAs can you detail your reasons as to why the proposed standards should not include community based organisations, given that adherence is voluntary?

So far as I can see, the standards have not been published yet and, when they are published, are voluntary for walking clubs to use as a benchmark for their practice. What problems and or benefits for clubs can you foresee that would result from best practice standards for Bushwalking activities?

The way I see it there are advantages for a minimum level of qualification, experience or equipment for leaders of club walks and some negatives in terms of training burden (and possibly insurance). I am unsure that this is all negative.

cheers,

Sean
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Tue 29 Aug, 2017 10:36 am

Sean,

Outdoors Victoria calling the standard "voluntary" is misinformation. This is fake news!

The current draft standards will not be "voluntary" when courts, insurers and land managers all reference them and expect volunteers to comply with them. For example, Parks Victoria is already requiring some volunteer groups to comply with existing AAS!

Clubs and community organisations may of course reference parts of the standards. I don't think very many people will also read the numerous competency units listed in the AAAS from TAFE oriented National Outdoor Recreation qualifications.

The benchmark the AAAS set for commercial groups should be appropriate for them - and the Victorian government DOES require that they comply with them.

However, the commercial-level benchmark is clearly not appropriate for volunteer community-based bushwalkers. They are not "minimum level".

Community-based bushwalking trip leaders will continue to ensure their bushwalks are safe by using and updating our own well-established and proven resources including trip planning, trip management, leadership, bushcraft, navigation, first aid and handling emergencies. We use practical information to guide and inform safe bushwalking, and not just tick boxes.

Regards, Peter
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 29 Aug, 2017 12:00 pm

Sorry double post.
Last edited by wildwanderer on Tue 29 Aug, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 29 Aug, 2017 12:09 pm

Bushwalking Victoria wrote: This is fake news!

:roll:
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:The current draft standards will not be "voluntary" when courts, insurers and land managers all reference them and expect volunteers to comply with them. For example, Parks Victoria is already requiring some volunteer groups to comply with existing AAS!

Clubs and community organisations may of course reference parts of the standards. I don't think very many people will also read the numerous competency units listed in the AAAS from TAFE oriented National Outdoor Recreation qualifications.

The benchmark the AAAS set for commercial groups should be appropriate for them - and the Victorian government DOES require that they comply with them.

However, the commercial-level benchmark is clearly not appropriate for volunteer community-based bushwalkers. They are not "minimum level".


I think Peter (Bushwalking Victoria) has a reasonable concern especially on the insurance front. i.e Insurers requiring minimum walk leader quals (as per AAAS) to cover club activities.

Though Im in NSW these sort of changes do tend to flow on to other states. I think the point about overly steep qualifications being pushed onto volunteer organisations is a fair one.

The National Outdoor Rec Quals are not an insignificant standard of competencies. I hold several in areas such as leading a group on and offtrack, group logistics, risk assessment, advanced first aid response etc etc and the TAFE training to achieve certification at the minimum Cert III level was 10 months and 3 days a week. (I did these quals 10 years ago so things may have changed)

Im sure alot of walk leaders in clubs would already possess these skills however its the assessment process and requirement for a qualified assessor which would put an undue time and likely financial burden on many clubs.

EDIT. Noted the the AAAS goal is a National Standard so potentially will start applying to clubs in other states etc.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 12:16 am

EDIT. Noted the the AAAS goal is a National Standard so potentially will start applying to clubs in other states etc.


Yes, the AAAS are claimed to be national standards to "ensure outdoor professionals are pooling their expertise and experiences at a national level, resulting in higher quality standards and less chance of confusion." but confusingly each State will "choose whether to adopt or modify them"

Each State and Territory government apparently supports the AAAS, although Outdoors Victoria won't disclose the funding, scope or terms of reference for the development of the AAAS so these matters remain unclear.

People across Australia can sign the petition http://bit.ly/AAAS-petition to send a message to all government and industry groups developing it.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 9:08 am

Not good. Most BW clubs have sufficient expertise such that adverse incidents can be managed satisfactorily. I'd like to see an analysis of SAR figures detailing how many incidents are caused by inept leadership.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwalks » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 4:18 pm

We should not fear AAAS so much. Infact I think bushwalking clubs should embrace them.

With national workplaces health and safety laws, there is little difference in the needs of paid and volunteers staff.
Whether this AAAS mentions community groups or not we (clubs) will likely be held to the same standards in the absence of more appropriate standards. Our duty of care will be similar (all be it that many of those been lead will have more experience than many tour groups).

The AAAS is very relevant for clubs. Not all parts of the standard will apply to all leaders. So we could suggest that a subset of the standard apply for clubs. This way we can control what reasonable parts apply to clubs.

Looks like all volunteers groups have training needs from RFS, SES, soccer clubs etc.
Training does not have to be arduous -- can be done on line and with mentoring from existing leaders -- part of an induction process. The training needs could vary for different grades of walks.

The fear that clubs will loose leaders because of training I don't think is true. I think having clear standards helps clubs provide good training that improve the quality of leadership in the clubs. Also it means that clubs can become a recognised training ground for people thinking about becoming a commercial leader.

I feel that bushwalking clubs (and bushwalking Australia & each state) should be lobbying for which subset of the standards apply to clubs -- not trying to make the AAAS not mention clubs.

Matt :)
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby ribuck » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 4:45 pm

Bushwalking clubs have a great track record of high standards, training programs, and effective leadership.

But as soon as you make it about "process" -- about doing things to an externally-specified standard -- it increases the burden of being a walks leader within with a club.

As more regulations are brought to bear on formally-constituted clubs, more people will find it easier to walk informally instead (e.g. through meetup groups), thereby losing the positive aspects of the bushwalking club. This is an inevitable unintended consequence, and will probably lead to a spiral or more and more regulation to address the failings of the previous rounds of regulation, leading eventually to regulation against individual and informal bushwalking.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwanderer » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 5:44 pm

wildwalks wrote:..snip..
With national workplaces health and safety laws, there is little difference in the needs of paid and volunteers staff.

The issue is a paid professional guide is expected hold a number of competencies under the National Outdoor Recreation Qualification and additionally follow procedures that are taught as part of those competencies. (disclaimer. this could be out of date as is based on training I did under the National Outdoor Rec Quals around 10 years ago).

Procedures such as (for each walk). Prepare and document :
- Risk assessment and management plan for each identified risk.
- Give client safety briefings per each identified risk.
- Detailed route plan broken up into sections. Detailing each sections terrain, distance, expected traverse time and grid references.
- Minimum impact assessment and how impact will be managed.
- Collection of(and leader to carry) medical forms for each party member.
- Detailed equipment list that is checked off.
- Emergency evacuation plans and alternative routes. All documented and given grid references.
- Communication procedures for contacting trip support and emergency services.
- Verification that the leader and assistant leader have the required training for the trip. (including up to date medical training that needs to be re-certified every year or so)

Many/most volunteer leaders would do alot of this mentally before they start and during the walk but to document it all is a fairly arduous task. You would definitely want and expect a professional guide with paying clients to have this sort of documentation and procedures but should a volunteer leader leading a club walk be expected to do the same ?

and its not just bushwalking. A professional guide leading a canyon or abseiling trip is expected to have a host of certified vertical rescue skills. In addition to being able to setup the abseil safely and guide party members through the descent.

wildwalks wrote: The AAAS is very relevant for clubs. Not all parts of the standard will apply to all leaders. So we could suggest that a subset of the standard apply for clubs. This way we can control what reasonable parts apply to clubs.

I do agree that perhaps a substandard should be looked at. There should IMO be different standards applied to professional vs volunteer leaders. However I tend to agree with Ribuck. "As more regulations are brought to bear on formally-constituted clubs, more people will find it easier to walk informally instead (e.g. through meetup groups), thereby losing the positive aspects of the bushwalking club".

wildwalks wrote: Also it means that clubs can become a recognized training ground for people thinking about becoming a commercial leader.

Honestly the training and assessment procedure under the National Outdoor Recreation Qualification is extensive. Its far beyond the scope of a club to be able to train and assess to a commercial standard. Im sure there are many club leaders that are significantly more experienced and highly skilled than many professional guides/outdoor educators, however to train and assess others is a extensive and expensive task. Which is why people pay money to TAFE and other schools to get taught the competences and receive assessment.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby north-north-west » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 6:22 pm

ribuck wrote:This is an inevitable unintended consequence, and will probably lead to a spiral or more and more regulation to address the failings of the previous rounds of regulation, leading eventually to regulation against individual and informal bushwalking.

And every time there is an incident, there will be an ever louder clamour for more regulation and tighter standards and more training and more 'accountability' . . . not from the people most affected (the walkers), but from politicians and the media and the most ignorant members of the public.
I've already seen this happen with diving, to the point where you're signing waivers and disclaimers and all sorts of meaningless legalese even when diving with a commercial club who know you well. It's all part of the ridiculous push to try to idiot-proof and bad-luck-proof life. You can't.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 6:27 pm

I don't see why standards shouldn't be applied to any outdoor leadership role.
If it can, and that it can, be argued that these standards are not necessary to any given role then why does that not apply across the board?

On the ground, in practice, those tick-lists are for the employer, very little onus on the employee, even a 'tour leader' other than to understand the provisions in place and their part in passing on that which needs to be expressed to participants. And to expect more from an employee (the person on the ground that matters to participants, safety, experience) is just not necessary any institutional training just wouldn't be specific enough (even if at a postgrad level). That and the fact that the mandatory skill-set, expected of an employee, the only real necessity (that can be properly trained for) is already covered by the various activity bodies and currency signed for annually in compliance for any commercial concession..

Personally, I'd rally against the imposition of such standards generally, for the lack of effective outcome and any possible, additional, bureaucratic burden they will achieve. Do us all a favour.

Then i'm not, nor even intend to be, involved in the burgeoning training and compliance industry.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwanderer » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 8:07 pm

Nuts wrote:I don't see why standards shouldn't be applied to any outdoor leadership role.
If it can, and that it can, be argued that these standards are not necessary to any given role then why does that not apply across the board?

I would argue that there is a fundamental difference between a professional guide and volunteer bushwalk leader in regards to duty of care and thats why the same standards should not apply.

If a person pays to be lead on a walk by a professional guide, then that payment is for a service of expertise relevant to the activity and for a specific experience. If a person joins a club walk, they are not receiving a service. They are undertaking in a joint activity with others for their own enjoyment. Yes there is a volunteer leader who knows the route..however that leader is not responsible for the safety of the other walkers. Each walker in a club walk is responsible for themselves.

Nuts wrote:On the ground, in practice, those tick-lists are for the employer, very little onus on the employee, even a 'tour leader' other than to understand the provisions in place and their part in passing on that which needs to be expressed to participants.

If the AAAS standards apply to professional guides and volunteer leaders equally, it will be the club's committee or most likely the walk leader who completes the documentation and the checklists and it would certainly be the walk leader who does the safety/risk minimization briefings.. and if they don't or don't complete adequately, they may be in breach of the AAAS standards/competencies and thus put the clubs insurance and possibly themselves in legal jeopardy should something happen on the trip.

IMO regulation to commercial standards is inappropriate for clubs / volunteer leaders. Regulation and specifications of standards will only ensure less people are willing to put their hands up to be a walk leader. Clubs have been self regulating very well up to now. Let that continue.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 8:43 pm

This has been going on for nearly a decade now. It is being pushed by some commercial operators in Victoria, with some ill-informed mates in the Vic bureaucracy. They are trying to drum up support from NSW as well. It's all about profit - theirs.

There has also been an attempt to 'privatise' the area around or near Feathertop (well, somewhere around there), such that clubs and individuals can no longer go bushwalking there. The promotors of that bit of chicanery claim that with superior commercial services available, 'amateurs' will no longer need to go by themselves. And should not be allowed to. Yeah, right.

I entirely agree that if you are paying to go on a commercial walking tour with a paid Guide, then the Guide should be fully qualified. This is so 'standard' in Europe (and NZ) no-one questions it. They have full Mountain Guides, and also 'accompaneurs' (sp?) for walking trips. Fine, but there are hundreds of thousands of individual walkers and clubs over there as well.

Anyhow, the idea that a few commercial companies and their mates in the bureaucracy are going to interfere in what I do in the bush is utterly and totally unacceptable, in any shape or form. I have said so before, in submissions to the bureaucracy (and in The Bushwalker mag (NSW) which I edit), and I will keep saying it. And I will ignore any laws to the contrary. The last time this idiocy raised its stupid head (in NSW) was years ago, but fortunately it 'died'. Sadly it seems it was only snoozing.

Nonetheless, ALL clubs should be noting this and filing their objections. If we don't, we have only ourselves to blame. Don't be complacent.

Cheers
Roger Caffin
Editor, The Bushwalker
Author, Bushwalking FAQ
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Wed 30 Aug, 2017 8:55 pm

wildwanderer wrote:IMO regulation to commercial standards is inappropriate for clubs / volunteer leaders. Regulation and specifications of standards will only ensure less people are willing to put their hands up to be a walk leader. Clubs have been self regulating very well up to now. Let that continue.


I agree ( :) )

I'm not entirely sure why nationalised standards will place any further onus on clubs etc given the current AAS or other instruments in place.. without inclusion in the draft, but am guessing there has been more discussion or inference that this will occur? (I gather the hope for a loud response is to- encourage this explicit exclusion in the wording?)
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Thu 31 Aug, 2017 5:18 pm

wildwalks wrote:With national workplaces health and safety laws, there is little difference in the needs of paid and volunteers staff.
Whether this AAAS mentions community groups or not we (clubs) will likely be held to the same standards in the absence of more appropriate standards. Our duty of care will be similar (all be it that many of those been lead will have more experience than many tour groups).


This is incorrect. In Victoria, the Wrongs Act 1958, amended 20 Oct 2010 (legislation) provides specific protection for volunteers (see Part IX). This applies to community organisations, community work and volunteers.

A volunteer is not liable in any civil proceeding for anything done, or not done, in good faith by him or her in providing a service in relation to community work organised by a community organisation.

However, as the Bushwalking AAAS "standard" purports to apply to volunteers and commercial operators, courts and insurance companies would assess compliance with it, which could negate the Wrongs Act protections.

As others have noted, there is clearly a different standard of care between that provided by commercial operators to paying clients compared to a club or community bushwalking group.

Its like trying to have one standard for all pilots - from international commercial jets (with hundreds of paying passengers) to a single engine plane (that is not allowed to carry paying passengers).

These are new "standards" with a raft of new commercial-level national competencies specified, so they are NOT "just like the old ones" - that were never endorsed or accepted by bushwalkers anyway.

In addition, I have seen no evidence from Outdoors Victoria or the government that the AAAS will actually achieve improvements in bushwalking safety.

It feels like we are stuck in an episode of Utopia. :?:

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby tom_brennan » Thu 31 Aug, 2017 6:21 pm

NSW has the Civil Liability Act 2002 (NSW) which
sets out a special protection which provides that volunteers are not personally liable (legally responsible) for anything done (or not done) in good faith, while doing community work that is organised by a community organisation.
Bushwalking NSW - http://bushwalkingnsw.com
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby climberman » Thu 31 Aug, 2017 7:54 pm

rcaffin wrote:This has been going on for nearly a decade now. It is being pushed by some commercial operators in Victoria, with some ill-informed mates in the Vic bureaucracy. They are trying to drum up support from NSW as well. It's all about profit - theirs.

There has also been an attempt to 'privatise' the area around or near Feathertop (well, somewhere around there), such that clubs and individuals can no longer go bushwalking there. The promotors of that bit of chicanery claim that with superior commercial servies available, 'amateurs' will no longer need to go by themselves. And should not be allowed to. Yeah, right.

I entirely agree that if you are paying to go on a commercial walking tour with a paid Guide, then the Guide should be fully qualified. This is so 'standard' in Europe (and NZ) no-one questions it. They have full Mountain Guides, and also 'accompaneurs' (sp?) for walking trips. Fine, but there are hundreds of thousands of individual walkers and clubs over there as well.

Anyhow, the idea that a few commercial companies and their mates in the bureaucracy are going to interfere in what I do in the bush is utterly and totally unacceptable, in any shape or form. I have said so before, in submissions to the bureaucracy (and in The Bushwalker mag (NSW) which I edit), and I will keep saying it. And I will ignore any laws to the contrary. The last time this idiocy raised its stupid head (in NSW) was years ago, but fortunately it 'died'. Sadly it seems it was only snoozing.

Nonetheless, ALL clubs should be noting this and filing their objections. If we don't, we have only ourselves to blame. Don't be complacent.

Cheers
Roger Caffin
Editor, The Bushwalker
Author, Bushwalking FAQ


Well said Roger.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Fri 01 Sep, 2017 4:35 pm

wildwanderer wrote:Procedures such as (for each walk). Prepare and document :
- Risk assessment and management plan for each identified risk.
- Give client safety briefings per each identified risk.
- Detailed route plan broken up into sections. Detailing each sections terrain, distance, expected traverse time and grid references.
- Minimum impact assessment and how impact will be managed.
- Collection of(and leader to carry) medical forms for each party member.
- Detailed equipment list that is checked off.
- Emergency evacuation plans and alternative routes. All documented and given grid references.
- Communication procedures for contacting trip support and emergency services.
- Verification that the leader and assistant leader have the required training for the trip. (including up to date medical training that needs to be re-certified every year or so)


I guess playing devils advocate, for another point of view. For those that would have a lesser set of minimum standards applied to, for example, a club walk, which ones would be sacrificed? (If indeed the standards do recommend(?) such detail) Iv'e no doubt at all, some club leaders would be at least as qualified as many working guides, as has been said they probably do these things anyway, maybe even documenting them. Do some clubs have forms to help their leaders do this?..

First Aid- well yes! (at least then someone knows what they are doing)

Initial competency/RPL could be a bit onerous, though one-off. Most clubs would have a minimum number of walks to lead?

Increased liability Insurance- ??

Maybe this is something that would be a good idea across clubs.. not to concede to the legalities, but as a good idea.

(And the other 'POV') :
Some more formal structure may attract, rather than deter, a core of younger people.. greater experience for any future, membership that would likely carry on into (their) more senior years. (And a good labour pool other than the more generalised Cert. 3/4 training :) )



Anyhow... Signed! Thanks.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Fri 01 Sep, 2017 5:09 pm

Procedures such as (for each walk). Prepare and document

Ah, paperwork ...
Now, for bushwalking clubs:

> Risk assessment and management plan for each identified risk.
Didn't identify any (except on the highway). But we found some Maccas.

> Give client safety briefings per each identified risk.
No clients - it's a club, remember?

> Detailed route plan broken up into sections. Detailing each sections terrain, distance, expected traverse time and grid references.
Never been there before, which is why we are going there now. So no idea.

> Minimum impact assessment and how impact will be managed.
Um ... ???

> Collection of (and leader to carry) medical forms for each party member.
Privacy Act!!! Get nicked.

> Detailed equipment list that is checked off.
Pack? yep. Hat? yep. Joggers? yep. You're good.

> Emergency evacuation plans and alternative routes. All documented and given grid references.
Never been there before. No idea.

> Communication procedures for contacting trip support and emergency services.
WHO? But I should be back in time for work on Monday.

> Verification that the leader and assistant leader have the required training for the trip.
Actually, Bushwalking Clubs have been doing this for >50 years.

> including up to date medical training that needs to be re-certified every year or so
Got some Band-Aids? OK.

Some more formal structure may attract, rather than deter, a core of younger people..

Which planet are you from???

Cheers
Roger
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Fri 01 Sep, 2017 5:13 pm

Roger! Rodger.

Ok, yes that's pretty much as I recall. haha (it was last century)
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby wildwanderer » Fri 01 Sep, 2017 5:41 pm

rcaffin wrote:Ah, paperwork ...
Now, for bushwalking clubs:.....

Yep. Documentation/procedures are important for a guiding company being paid to look after little johhny on his year 10 Duke of Edinburgh trek. Not least because little johhnys parents will have that company on a spit roast should they not have them and something happens.

However they shouldn't be forced by an external agency on bushwalking clubs. (not that we are there yet but if they are trying to make professional guiding companies and bushwalking clubs have the same standards we likely soon would be).

Now some clubs do have procedures and a bit of documentation on safety etc. Good on them. But its something that should be developed organically in the club based on their capacity. A club is a group of individuals walking together. Each walker is responsible for him/herself IMO.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Nuts » Sat 02 Sep, 2017 9:13 am

At the end of the day, people are ultimately responsible for themselves. Even a 'professional' guide can at best provide a buffer. And it's not 'Outdoor Australia' or a set of guidelines to answer too, that would be a coroner. Very likely the procedures of the company at question (unless the guide has done something entirely unsafe). ie. an individual being examined for their conscience, with or without some paperwork to wave about.

From a local perspective. If not wanting any association with national standards, representatives of bushwalkers- should perhaps have taken no part in formulating various state standards?
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Sat 02 Sep, 2017 10:03 am

If not wanting any association with national standards, representatives of bushwalkers- should perhaps have taken no part in formulating various state standards?
My memory is that there was an initial promise and belief that the Bushwalkers could actually contribute and get a satisfactory outcome. But when the final report (~2009) was released, it became clear that the people driving the process had completely ignored the Bushwalking reps. One is tempted to suggest that the committee was created after the required conclusions had already been written down. The only purpose of the committee was to create some vague semblance of 'public consultation'.
In other words, the bushwalking community was conned.

Cheers
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 04 Sep, 2017 11:21 am

There's an article in today's paper:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bushw ... y99yl.html
Nothing really new, just higher profile.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Bushwalking Victoria » Mon 04 Sep, 2017 12:56 pm

There is something new, some words from Andrew Knight, CEO of Outdoors Victoria:

the standards will be voluntary and will rarely apply to amateur groups.


the standards had been developed over a number of years and were something to celebrate, because they will "harmonise eight separate state and territory standards" to make compliance simpler.


This will make things very straight-forward for bushwalking groups


And from spokeman for John Eren, Minister for Sport, Victoria

The Andrews government supports the new standard, which it says will help outdoors groups establish whether they have a duty of care and what they need to do to honour that


We want to see more Victorians enjoying the great outdoors and doing so safely


That's what these voluntary guidelines are all about – making sure people are prepared and have the right safeguards in place to enjoy themselves.


We think they are both missing the point entirely - volunteers must not be forced to comply with standards for commercial operators!

We volunteer bushwalkers manage our safety well using our existing resources and experience-based training. Unfortunately, commercial interests appear to be influencing the Victorian (and other state) governments to our detriment.

Peter Campbell, President, Bushwalking Victoria
Last edited by Bushwalking Victoria on Mon 04 Sep, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Mon 04 Sep, 2017 1:49 pm

Personally, I think both the politicians and the bureaucrats are totally missing the real point.
Amateur/volunteer bushwalkers will completely ignore the 'regulations' - either willfully or by never hearing about them.
Who is going to attempt to prosecute a bunch of 19 year old males who decide to go bush overnight by themselves?
Laws which are completely ignored and can NOT be enforced ... are simply 'bad' laws.

Sure, oppose their introduction vigorously - but don't lose any sleep over them. Just ignore them.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby swills » Mon 04 Sep, 2017 2:22 pm

Sounds like the ghost of BMLC / STLC rising from the grave. I believe the standards set by these qualifications years ago to be the bench mark. From what I've seen in the field, I would follow a graduate of either BMLC / STLC then the commercial guides I've experienced.
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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby rcaffin » Mon 04 Sep, 2017 6:27 pm

Outdoors Australia has a new staff member, and said staffer wants to big-note himself. He finds the otherwise dead AAAS concept and decides this will do to make his position secure. He has no understanding of bushwalking - as we do it.

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Re: AAAS impacts on volunteer community-based bushwalkers

Postby Peaksnik » Wed 06 Sep, 2017 7:48 am

On show here is Capitalism's relentless drive to turn everything into a commodity that can be exchanged for a price. In this case, leadership in the outdoors is being commodified.

But, as with groups of friends, leadership in not-for-profit clubs is a personal relationship, it is not a commodity.

There needs to be an explicit statement incorporated into the standards that they are NOT directed at the actions and activities of clubs; that only in commercial settings is "adventure activity" leadership a commodity described by the standards; and that clubs do not offer a commodity called leadership.
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