Wed 18 Oct, 2017 3:21 pm
tom_brennan wrote:Perhaps the first thing should be a change of name from AAAS to AOAG (Australian Outdoor Activity Guidelines).
Thu 19 Oct, 2017 1:10 pm
If I accept that to be 80% then Bushwalking Vic should accept 20% is relevant to volunteer groups. That would be the converse of the statement. Given BV is a peak body then it should not be ignored and they should demand a seat at the table to help formulate the guidelines so it is clear when and how they relate to volunteer groups.
Thu 19 Oct, 2017 2:14 pm
Thu 19 Oct, 2017 3:29 pm
Thu 19 Oct, 2017 5:42 pm
Thu 19 Oct, 2017 6:34 pm
Thu 19 Oct, 2017 7:50 pm
Fri 20 Oct, 2017 6:06 am
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:The 20% of the contentious draft new "AAAS Core Standard" that we think is relevant to volunteer bushwalkers is already adequately addressed by resources such as:Bushwalking & Ski Touring Leadership (Bushwalking & Mountaincraft Advisory Board, Victoria)
Leadership training modules, including navigation, leadership, risk management and safety (Bushwalking Victoria)
Walksafe guidelines (Bushwalking Victoria)
Snowsafe guidelines
Bush Search and Rescue Victoria Manual (Bushwalking Victoria)
Safety in The Bush (Hobart Walking Club)
Risk Management Guidelines (Bushwalking Victoria)
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:If the AAAS do apply to volunteers then compliance with the additional inappropriate 80% (including "Organise Personal Work Priorities and Development" "Provide Quality Service" "Follow Occupational Health and Safety Policies (Workplace)) will be required.
When you read the draft Core AAAS you will see how ridiculous this is.
Bushwalking Victoria's concerns have been dismissed to date with brush offs like "the AAAS are not compulsory" (nonsense) and "the AAS are already in place" (applied only to commercial operators and the Core AAAS are new).
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:We don't want to participate in develop of industry/commercial standards - but we do agree they should be developed for and applied to commercial operators.
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:The evidence is clear that volunteer bushwalkers are managing their safety well (we even run an emergency service - very few missing people belong to clubs!)
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:We think Outdoor Leader Online should become a national resource for volunteer bushwalkers across Australia. We are working toward this happening.
Fri 20 Oct, 2017 8:24 am
Finally some factual and relevant input from the opposition.
To say you run an emergency service is a bit of a stretch. You provide assistance, feet on the ground, to emergency services and are under their control in any search. It is recognised some people within your organisation are skilled enough to do this but what is required before they can? I believe the SES in Victoria have taken control of all search and rescue operations within that state. They are trained volunteers mostly.
Fri 20 Oct, 2017 9:31 am
Fri 20 Oct, 2017 3:24 pm
Fri 20 Oct, 2017 4:00 pm
Fri 20 Oct, 2017 4:06 pm
Fri 20 Oct, 2017 6:00 pm
rcaffin wrote:But it is clear and regardless of what some believe, volunteer groups WILL have dependent persons and a duty of care from time to time.
Xplora
It may be that the situation in Victoria is different from what obtains in NSW. In NSW we have the Wrongs Act which states (regarding volunteers)
5L(1) A person (the defendant) is not liable in negligence for harm suffered by another person (the plaintiff) as a result of the materialisation of an obvious risk of a dangerous recreational activity engaged in by the plaintiff.
5M(1) A person (the defendant) does not owe a duty of care to another person who engages in a recreational activity (the plaintiff) to take care in respect of a risk of the activity if the risk was the subject of a risk warning to the plaintiff.
5M(4) A risk warning can be given orally or in writing (including by means of a sign or otherwise).
In addition, when someone joins a Club here in NSW they sign an agreement absolving the Club and leaders from liability.
I cannot put any plainer than that. To keep asserting 'dependent person's and 'duty of care' based on just a gut feeling is ... well, it won't stand up in a NSW court. And no AA(A)S can over-ride that. Waste of time and electrons.
Cheers
Roger
Fri 20 Oct, 2017 6:28 pm
Sat 21 Oct, 2017 5:41 am
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:Outdoors Victorian and the Victorian government are aware of the specific resources successfully used by volunteer bushwalkers and don't dispute that there are very few incidents with club bushwalks - which causes me to question which problem they are trying to solve with the AAAS?
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:Bush Search and Rescue is a registered emergency service organisation http://www.bsar.org/emergencyservicestatus/ in the Emergency Management Manual of Victoria (EMMV). Its one of three standing committees of Bushwalking Victoria.
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:Police Search and Rescue is the coordinating agency for Land SAR in Victoria. They activate/call support agencies such as BSAR, the SES, CFA etc as required.
Bushwalking Victoria wrote:Note that the Core Standards actually apply to leaders for all adventure activities that Outdoors Victoria say they are writing "standards" for, including abseiling, artificial climbing, bushwalking, canoeing & kayaking, challenge ropes, four-wheel driving, horse trail riding, mountain biking, recreational angling, caving, river rafting, rock climbing, snow sports, surfing, trail bike riding, archery, canyoning, sea kayaking, surf kayaking, snorkelling, wildlife swims and scuba diving.
Volunteer clubs and leaders across all these activities will be impacted by the Core AAAS is it states they "shall" comply with all of it.
Sat 21 Oct, 2017 6:07 am
Sat 21 Oct, 2017 6:37 am
Sat 21 Oct, 2017 8:29 am
rcaffin wrote:
quoting legislation, without explanation or interpretation, over and over again means you win.
That is the basis of a lot of our legal system: if you can find a close enough clause in an Act or even a precedent, that's it.The former is the reason we have Legislation: to remove the uncertainty. The latter is what underlies the practice of Common Law.
rcaffin wrote: that section refers to risks identified and communicated
And that is what Clubs in NSW do. When you join or go on a trip, you sign a legal document acknowledging the risks - both known and unknown.
rcaffin wrote: the Wrongs Act does not protect volunteers from litigation as a result of negligence or when they are not acting in good faith.
Good luck in trying to prove that about a person recognised by a Club as being qualified as a 'leader' in the eyes of his peers.
rcaffin wrote:Boring.
Sat 21 Oct, 2017 8:59 am
Sat 21 Oct, 2017 3:09 pm
Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:17 am
rcaffin wrote: Legislation can create more uncertainty until a precedent is set. There are none for 'acting in good faith' but plenty for negligence.
Mind boggling belief.
Fortunately, in NSW, the Wrongs Act covers that completely.
Lophophaps wrote:So maybe the focus should be on using these and other views from peak bodies to make our own standard, something workable, good for clubs, Meet-ups and the like. Something is needed that can cater for all situations, Perth day walks to VMTC. Instead of wailing about the OV words (justified, in my view) and discussing laws, why not a DIY approach, where experts such as those who posted above make a functional bushwalking standard?
This is the direction to get a better result.
Sun 22 Oct, 2017 6:24 am
Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:39 am
rcaffin wrote: May I also suggest a sit down with the insurance company. Let them know what you intend to do and get some feedback as to the extent required by them.
Ah well, I think the Confederation of Bushwalking Clubs NSW did this 30 or 40 years ago (or more?). That was a major reason the Confed was formed: to negotiate a bulk deal with the insurers. That was done for all the affiliated NSW Clubs. Very old hat.
Sun 22 Oct, 2017 7:56 am
Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:14 am
rcaffin wrote:Could it be that the NSW organisation is so far ahead of Victoria? So it would seem.
Sun 22 Oct, 2017 10:31 pm
Thu 22 Mar, 2018 5:13 pm
Thu 22 Mar, 2018 6:22 pm
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