Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Mark F » Thu 18 Oct, 2018 12:28 pm

Tekker76 wrote:
mikethepike wrote: To witness the same illness and slow, terrible but inevitable death in your own child when it is so easily avoided is almost unthinkable.


Its actually about 85-90% survival rate in the 1st world.

I am all for compulsory vaccination when its a big killer and/or there's a chance to wipe it out( small pox, polio, tet, diptheria etc). I'm happy with 1980's level vaccinations for some of the other stuff, like flu shots =personal choice. As to the public good , No.1 by far is tackling overweight/obese kids. 1/4 of all kids fit the category now, another 3-4 million fat adults in the making at risk of the big ticket diseases- heart , liver problems, diabetes. Not even decent ad campaigns running on this, plenty on selling those flu shots... :roll:

You are not factoring in the massive costs of treating tetanus once it becomes established in a person nor the pain and torment suffered by the patient. Compare this to a simple, cheap jab and possibly as sore arm for a few hours. It's a bit like suggesting we should routinely offer smokers a lung transplant rather than encouraging them to give up smoking.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 18 Oct, 2018 1:07 pm

Tekker76 wrote:Its actually about 85-90% survival rate in the 1st world.

I am all for compulsory vaccination when its a big killer and/or there's a chance to wipe it out( small pox, polio, tet, diptheria etc). I'm happy with 1980's level vaccinations for some of the other stuff, like flu shots =personal choice. As to the public good , No.1 by far is tackling overweight/obese kids. 1/4 of all kids fit the category now, another 3-4 million fat adults in the making at risk of the big ticket diseases- heart , liver problems, diabetes. Not even decent ad campaigns running on this, plenty on selling those flu shots... :roll:

Community vaccinations have traditionally been focused on childhood diseases, on those diseases that take life before life has barely begun. As is the case, the relatively simple vaccination shot is highly efficacious and made a dramatic difference to infant mortality and morbidity rates. As for the modern sugar/fat lifestyle diseases, this should not be compared or referenced to childhood vaccination programs. These lifestyle diseases are the result of our misplaced liberty, choice and leads to late life diseases. Medical professionals can only do so much and to warn and advocate. As for flu vaccines, they can have variable efficacy for the strain of the season, it’s not enforced.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby trekker76 » Thu 18 Oct, 2018 6:23 pm

Mark F wrote:
Tekker76 wrote:You are not factoring in the massive costs of treating tetanus once it becomes established in a person nor the pain and torment suffered by the patient. Compare this to a simple, cheap jab and possibly as sore arm for a few hours. It's a bit like suggesting we should routinely offer smokers a lung transplant rather than encouraging them to give up smoking.


I don't think you read my whole post, where I said I am for vaccinations for the big killers like tetanus.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby trekker76 » Thu 18 Oct, 2018 7:01 pm

GPSGuided wrote:Community vaccinations have traditionally been focused on childhood diseases, on those diseases that take life before life has barely begun. As is the case, the relatively simple vaccination shot is highly efficacious and made a dramatic difference to infant mortality and morbidity rates. As for the modern sugar/fat lifestyle diseases, this should not be compared or referenced to childhood vaccination programs.


I cant disagree and am in favour of vaccinations for the big stuff. I compared the lesser disease vaccination programs in relation to obesity as I just think it is lobbying, and legislation and money better spent on the latter. Obesity often starts in childhood, 80% of fat kids will become fat adults. That level of morbidity and medical expense eclipses anything else in society at the moment.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 18 Oct, 2018 9:49 pm

Tekker76 wrote:I compared the lesser disease vaccination programs in relation to obesity as I just think it is lobbying, and legislation and money better spent on the latter. Obesity often starts in childhood, 80% of fat kids will become fat adults. That level of morbidity and medical expense eclipses anything else in society at the moment.

As discussed on this and many other forums in the past, obesity control is far harder to implement as it deals with individual's chosen lifestyle. The government and health bodies can only recommend but can't force people to eat less, or there'll be responses at the ballot box. Further, obesity control requires self discipline unless we encounter a famine. People's desire for short term happiness (gluttony and sugary pleasures) is just overwhelming. Quite a different matter to deal with than flu vaccines where a single quick stab at the GP's is all that's required, perfect for the instant gratification crowd.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Chunder fuzz » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 8:30 am

Heh, lesser vaccinations, it's not like anyone has died from the Flu...
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Gadgetgeek » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 9:27 am

GPSGuided wrote:
Tekker76 wrote:I compared the lesser disease vaccination programs in relation to obesity as I just think it is lobbying, and legislation and money better spent on the latter. Obesity often starts in childhood, 80% of fat kids will become fat adults. That level of morbidity and medical expense eclipses anything else in society at the moment.

As discussed on this and many other forums in the past, obesity control is far harder to implement as it deals with individual's chosen lifestyle. The government and health bodies can only recommend but can't force people to eat less, or there'll be responses at the ballot box. Further, obesity control requires self discipline unless we encounter a famine. People's desire for short term happiness (gluttony and sugary pleasures) is just overwhelming. Quite a different matter to deal with than flu vaccines where a single quick stab at the GP's is all that's required, perfect for the instant gratification crowd.

Yes, and. Just like in the past ciggies were sold on their health benefits, sugar has been pushed, subsidized, and advertised for a long time, so its not fair to say that this happened in a vacuum. Add to that the fact that over time the physical activity provided at schools has been undercut at nearly every turn, as well as the fact that many kids not allowed to walk to school either just due to cultural shift, or distance, or whatever. (doesn't much matter why) We as consumers gave a lot more power to advertisers than we thought we had. Yes we can't force people to eat less, but we could, I dunno, bother to teach them? Home Economics was a response to a decidedly paternalistic and misogynistic set of concerns, but if from say year 5 kids got at least some food consumer training until they graduated, learning what a serving size actually is, and understanding more about their food, I think we'd see a change. But as long as manual arts and phys ed are going to get chiseled out of school budgets, not much can change. Granted that is part of a much wider and deeper set of problems, these things are much more complex than an A leads to B situation.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Son of a Beach » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 11:04 am

Yeah, but look at what happened to the Martians after they wiped out all disease, centuries ago. Then they were unexpectedly exposed to the common cold, and the whole lot of them died quite quickly because their immune systems had become useless.

(As reported by H.G. Wells, and such an important lesson it was later turned into a musical by Jeff Wayne, just so that we should not forget and become complacent. *sigh* Forever Autumn! The whole message of War of the Worlds was that we should stop the jabbers!)
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Chunder fuzz » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 11:46 am

Gadgetgeek wrote:sugar has been pushed, subsidized, and advertised for a long time


What do you mean by 'sugar'? Sucrose?
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Mark F » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 12:47 pm

Trekker - I took your "85-90% survival rate" to mean that you felt the tetanus shot was not all that important and I felt that those 85-90% of patients who survived (and those who didn't) suffered greatly though the disease and the cost of treatment astronomic compared to the cost of the vaccination. Tetanus is a little different to most other diseases that we vaccinate against - the jab is often given soon after the infective event.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Eremophila » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 1:04 pm

I wonder how many of these unvaccinated kids will grow up and end up having all their shots anyway when they decide to travel overseas. In the case of yellow fever, it's compulsory if you're visiting certain countries.

Or they may wind up working in an industry such as defence or health where full vaccination is a prerequisite of the job.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby photohiker » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 1:07 pm

Mark F wrote:Trekker - I took your "85-90% survival rate" to mean that you felt the tetanus shot was not all that important and I felt that those 85-90% of patients who survived (and those who didn't) suffered greatly though the disease and the cost of treatment astronomic compared to the cost of the vaccination. Tetanus is a little different to most other diseases that we vaccinate against - the jab is often given soon after the infective event.


Tetanus is a general vaccination every 5-10 years, and also used after the infective event if the time of the previous vaccination not known.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Penguin » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 4:43 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:Yeah, but look at what happened to the Martians after they wiped out all disease, centuries ago. Then they were unexpectedly exposed to the common cold, and the whole lot of them died quite quickly because their immune systems had become useless.

(As reported by H.G. Wells, and such an important lesson it was later turned into a musical by Jeff Wayne, just so that we should not forget and become complacent. *sigh* Forever Autumn! The whole message of War of the Worlds was that we should stop the jabbers!)


Vaccination in itself does not wipe out disease, only if heard immunity is at 100% for the half life of the disease. The interesting one is that shingles is on the rise because adults are not being reacquainted with the disease from kids having chicken pox. But a quick booster as adults will trigger the antigens again.

Also first nation Australians died in their thousands from small pox - not because they had been vaccinated year ago and had a dud immune system - they had just never been acquainted with the disease to develop antigens.

Ah the debate goes on........
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby andrewa » Fri 19 Oct, 2018 10:36 pm

Just a personal observation, but I saw f... all influenza this flu season at work, following the huge push towards flu vaccination this year....

It would appear logical that if herd immunity is greater, then infectivity is lower, and the prevalence is less.

But, getting back to the OP, in reality, a lack of tetanus vaccination would practically make no difference to anything related to your trip. Your post relates to legal liability for a group member choosing not to be vaccinated against something, and I think the issue really becomes that of documentation that the group member, or parents thereof, take responsibility for their choices.

As a GP, every day I make multiple decisions that I am entirely responsible for, and, whilst I’m careful about how I document stuff, I don’t practice “*&%$#! covering” medicine. But....I understand why those who have less medical training need to “cover their *&^%$#@!” in situations like this.

Current tetanus guidelines are that once someone has had a primary vaccination course (by 15), then the next booster is at 50, unless the person has a tetanus prone wound, in which case >5yrs since previous booster triggers another one.

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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby trekker76 » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 7:01 am

GPSGuided wrote:
Tekker76 wrote:IAs discussed on this and many other forums in the past, obesity control is far harder to implement as it deals with individual's chosen lifestyle. The government and health bodies can only recommend but can't force people to eat less, or there'll be responses at the ballot box. Further, obesity control requires self discipline unless we encounter a famine. People's desire for short term happiness (gluttony and sugary pleasures) is just overwhelming. Quite a different matter to deal with than flu vaccines where a single quick stab at the GP's is all that's required, perfect for the instant gratification crowd.


Agree completely obesity is harder to deal with, but I do tend to think the government should give it a better shot, pardoning the pun, or take a better look at causes.

For one this change of body shape is still accelerating but we have had the same lifestyles and access to the roughly the same foods for 30 years. People could eat themselves to an average bodyweight of 87kg no problem in the 1990's....but they just didn't, they stayed 77-78.

Also its English speaking countries topping most of the obesity indexes in the 1st world, where a lot of other continental 1st world European countries do not. I think germany is the only non-anglophone nation that is nearly as fat as us. There is something substantial worth looking at there. But this is a huge thread hijack, and even further from vaccination arguments, apologies and to the OP. :D
Last edited by trekker76 on Sat 20 Oct, 2018 7:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby trekker76 » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 7:04 am

Mark F wrote:Trekker - I took your "85-90% survival rate" to mean that you felt the tetanus shot was not all that important and I felt that those 85-90% of patients who survived (and those who didn't) suffered greatly though the disease and the cost of treatment astronomic compared to the cost of the vaccination. Tetanus is a little different to most other diseases that we vaccinate against - the jab is often given soon after the infective event.


Yep sorry realised you were the same guy I quoted. yes I was only pointing out the statistic, not playing it down.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Gadgetgeek » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 8:48 am

Chunder fuzz wrote:
Gadgetgeek wrote:sugar has been pushed, subsidized, and advertised for a long time


What do you mean by 'sugar'? Sucrose?

All kinds of sugar, HFCS, cane sugar. the canadian gov't propped up the beet sugar industry for a while to keep us not dependent on foreign sources. Every sort of sugar there is has had some level of marketing from an industry level at the very least, all the way to full gov't subsidy for some. Its played its part in the grander geo-political game.
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Re: Im not a Conscientious objector to Tetanus shot but. . .

Postby Gadgetgeek » Sat 20 Oct, 2018 8:58 am

Tekker76 wrote:Agree completely obesity is harder to deal with, but I do tend to think the government should give it a better shot, pardoning the pun, or take a better look at causes.

For one this change of body shape is still accelerating but we have had the same lifestyles and access to the roughly the same foods for 30 years. People could eat themselves to an average bodyweight of 87kg no problem in the 1990's....but they just didn't, they stayed 77-78.

Also its English speaking countries topping most of the obesity indexes in the 1st world, where a lot of other continental 1st world European countries do not. I think germany is the only non-anglophone nation that is nearly as fat as us. There is something substantial worth looking at there. But this is a huge thread hijack, and even further from vaccination arguments, apologies and to the OP. :D

There is some really interesting research happening with regards to epigenetics and the results of lifestyles on offspring. Basically those kids of parents who had good access to food will have certain tendencies compared to those who didn't even if the kids get the same foods now. I don't want to get it wrong, but basically as food has changed over the last 30 years, (which it has by a lot) it means that the kids being born now will be differently adapted than their parents were. Its still early days and slow research, but its cool stuff. There are some signs that if you take the kids of overweight parents who have had easy access to food, and feed them healthy, they will be very fit, but if the parents didn't have easy access to food as kids, and are overweight now, the kid stands almost no chance as their body is ready to starve. How much of an effect this has is hard to say, but it does show some very interesting connections.
Also a lot of the "fitness" stats are still just using BMI, and that doesn't work if someone gets healthy but doesn't loose weight, which given the current trend in fittness is some form of body building, is probably throwing the stat off a fair bit.
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