Unprepared people in the bush

[wayno]

if you think they are going to do somthing that could potentially put their lives at risk or cuase them serious harm, i tend to speak up. if they dont listen , then i've at least tried, but if i've said nothing and something bad does happen to them, then i'll never know if saying something would have made a difference

[wildwanderer]

Camping on top of solitary the other week, two walkers came past at about 5pm. Stopped for a brief chat, said they had stayed out too long and needed to get back to narrowneck. No warm clothes or head torches. Shudder to think what the descent off solitary would have been like in the dark.

The Mt Solitary Track is an area where I think National Parks need to do more to ensure walker safety. It’s a very regular visited by all types of day walkers from experienced to clueless and even young children.

Of particular concern is Korrowall knifeedge. There are multiple routes up that spur some relatively straight forward (but still a scramble) and others with exposed scrambles/ ledges. Its not easy to pick which is the straight forward route and there have been serious injuries from people slipping and falling after picking the wrong route. I think National Parks should put in a couple of signs indicating the safest route.

As an example of the ‘non bushwalker’ people who visit Solitary: I was walking down the hill to China Mans Gully last year and had two kids about 5 years of age run past me.. I asked where their parents were and they replied they had just finished the climb (up Korrowall) and were having a rest. That’s 15-20 mins walk away (along a bush track) from where the kids and I were. So I told them to stay put and wait.

Not advocating barriers and handrails aka Grand Canyon!

[rcaffin]

Camping on top of solitary the other week, two walkers came past at about 5pm. Stopped for a brief chat, said they had stayed out too long and needed to get back to narrowneck. No warm clothes or head torches. Shudder to think what the descent off solitary would have been like in the dark.

Hum ...
Thing is, if they knew the descent and the moon was reasonable, they might be laughing all the way. You never know.

Cheers
Roger

[Xplora]

Nine people missed the Eskdale spur turnoff from the summit of Bogong last weekend. A couple of internationals were turned around on their way to CC hut, 2 day walkers (well prepared for a day trip) were turned around at Camp Valley on their way to the Long Spur thinking it was Eskdale and spent the night at CC. Another group of 5 self sufficient got to CC thinking it was Michell and stayed the night in tents. All this in just one day so maybe there is a case for a chat and simply ask where they are headed. Trouble is when places get busy you would never get far if you stopped to chat with everyone you meet. PV was notified and I think in time better signage will be erected.

[wayno]

some tourists completely ignored dept of conservation staff advice at mt cook not to attempt the mueller hut track after a heavy snow dump and had to get helicoptered out after they got stuck in the snow

[slparker]

Nine people missed the Eskdale spur turnoff from the summit of Bogong last weekend. A couple of internationals were turned around on their way to CC hut, 2 day walkers (well prepared for a day trip) were turned around at Camp Valley on their way to the Long Spur thinking it was Eskdale and spent the night at CC. Another group of 5 self sufficient got to CC thinking it was Michell and stayed the night in tents. All this in just one day so maybe there is a case for a chat and simply ask where they are headed. Trouble is when places get busy you would never get far if you stopped to chat with everyone you meet. PV was notified and I think in time better signage will be erected.

I was at CC hut on Sunday- apparently the visibility was poor on Saturday with low cloud, but, mistaking CC for michell hut even in poor weather is quite baffling. I presume they missed the turnoff to Eskdale Spur?

I have been a volunteer at the conquestathon a couple of times. Even in clear conditions people sail straight past the turnoff to Eskdale Spur and don’t believe you when you prompt them to take a left. It mustnt be the most obvious route.

[Lophophaps]

The Cleve Cole people very much appear to have no idea what to do. CCH to Eskdale is west then north and up. Long Spur from CCH is down and east. Mistaking direction and up-down is amazing, but it happened. The problem with signs is that they may entice more bumblies to visit. I would have thought that even the easiest way to Bogong-CCH would be a filter against the inept. Ignoring the Mount Cook Parks advice is very foolish. It's a solid climb, with the option of fine weather low and poor weather much higher.

[slparker]

My impression of many walkers is that they rely on their phone for both map and compass. The map is infinitely scalable by pinching the screen so distance cannot be intuitively calculated.
Whereas if you're used to using a 1:25000 you can quickly appreciate distance.
I just don't think that people whip out the map anymore.

[wayno]

loose cell phone reception, map not cached, where am I?

[wildwanderer]

My impression of many walkers is that they rely on their phone for both map and compass. The map is infinitely scalable by pinching the screen so distance cannot be intuitively calculated.
Whereas if you're used to using a 1:25000 you can quickly appreciate distance.
I just don't think that people whip out the map anymore.

The phone as map can work well if the app or map features UTM gridlines. Then distance is much more intutive no matter what the zoom level.

Its a limitation of the current mapping applicatons that many dont support displaying grid lines when using a openstreetmap based map. Installing goverment supplied topograhic geo-pdf maps gets around this issue as they display the UTM grid on the map itself. But yes its about educating people to use the right map with their phone. (I think trying to get people to switch back to paper would be like holding back the tide unfortunatly)

If people know what they are doing the maps are already saved on their phone and the phone is in flight mode. (but of course we all see people go off on a remote area walk wearing a tshirt and no hat so.... natural selection..)

[slparker]

Hi WW,
I have tried using a phone or GPS but it doesn't work for me. The screen is too small and my brain has been trained to quickly reckon distance from a 1:25000 or 1:50000 scale + the benefits of seeing surrounding terrain and features on a larger field makes it easier to work out map to ground.

I am sure that they can work but my brain is analog. I'd be curious to see one used by someone who has never seen a paper map - perhaps they are better? I like the capacity to find a grid reference on a phone/gps but there is no way that i would depend on an electronic device for navigation.

[wildwanderer]

Hi WW,
I have tried using a phone or GPS but it doesn't work for me. The screen is too small and my brain has been trained to quickly reckon distance from a 1:25000 or 1:50000 scale + the benefits of seeing surrounding terrain and features on a larger field makes it easier to work out map to ground.

I am sure that they can work but my brain is analog. I'd be curious to see one used by someone who has never seen a paper map - perhaps they are better? I like the capacity to find a grid reference on a phone/gps but there is no way that i would depend on an electronic device for navigation.

Alot of merit in what you say. Paper map is superior in my opinion for awareness of terrain further out than a few square kms. (although larger and higher resolution screens are making seeing greater distance easier on phones).

Always been a paper map user but switch to oruxmaps for android a year ago. Phones waterproof and the battery lasts for over 2 days. (and I carry a back up battery for another 2 days of charge). Biggest benefit is I can plan a route on the computer and reference sat photos/openstreet maps and govt topos and then directly import it all into the phone. I find the computer route planning quite enjoyable.

I have noticed that the convenience can make one lazy. I still use map to ground skills with the gps off for 99% off the walk but If im not 100% sure of my pinpoint location its very tempting to turn on the gps on for a minute and get a precise location… where as before the phone I would needed to do backbearings etc and ensure I was more precisely noting gullys/spurs and other features as I went along.

Hiking in an area I don’t know well, the paper map will be packed as a backup. As you never know when you might trip and smash the phone. (never happened yet but murphys..)

[Xplora]

I was at CC hut on Sunday- apparently the visibility was poor on Saturday with low cloud, but, mistaking CC for michell hut even in poor weather is quite baffling. I presume they missed the turnoff to Eskdale Spur?

I have been a volunteer at the conquestathon a couple of times. Even in clear conditions people sail straight past the turnoff to Eskdale Spur and don’t believe you when you prompt them to take a left. It mustnt be the most obvious route.

This is spot on. New signage would be helpful and signage is almost expected on popular routes by these sort of people. I have heard them complain about the lack of signs but would never consider the need to carry a proper map or even a map on a device. This sort of person does no want to follow a map anymore. I don't use electronic devices solely either but do use them from time to time to quickly fix a position if I am in doubt then I turn it off. It is inevitable that some routes will become more popular with nuff nuffs and there is a need to protect them to some degree. It may not be entirely their fault they are out of their depth. Tourist information centres are handing out information about walks but may not give adequate warnings. Google/instagram etc is also responsible as is this site and other sites like it.

[Hallu]

In France it's very different. If you hike in the mountains you usually have phone reception, plus there's water everywhere. So the people who die are usually alpinists who knew they could get into trouble, or regular hikers, who slipped on a dangerous part of a track, as they can often be very exposed. I don't know how many people die in the bush in Australia and NZ each year, but in France, it's around 30/35 for the summer season, and an additional 30/35 for the winter (backcountry skiing mostly). Alpinism is the most dangerous sport there is, with around 30 deaths each year, in second place it's hunting (27) and in third diving, car racing and skiing with 23 each. It's crazy that alpinism is killing more than hunting, and I'm sure that if you normalise the numbers of deaths by the number of "athletes" it's even worse as there are a lot more hunters that alpinists.

I think unprepareness doesn't kill that much and that's why people are ignorant. I think it's a lot more dangerous in Australia with the heat. I've been dehydrated twice on walks even though carrying 2 L of water each time. The problem I had was those dromedary bags, you can't see how much is left so by 35° heat you gulp it and run out of water before you know it.

[raider]

I was up on Mt Bogong two weeks ago and the sign to Eskdale Spur is good....only problem was that the sign was lying on the ground. I got about 10 metres past it and realised I was heading in the wrong direction and turned around so it probably pays to have some directional knowledge ( or a map ) when up there. To get all the way to CC hut and mistake it for Michell hut is a worry.

[bigwallclimber]

Hi WW,
I have tried using a phone or GPS but it doesn't work for me. The screen is too small and my brain has been trained to quickly reckon distance from a 1:25000 or 1:50000 scale + the benefits of seeing surrounding terrain and features on a larger field makes it easier to work out map to ground.

I am sure that they can work but my brain is analog. I'd be curious to see one used by someone who has never seen a paper map - perhaps they are better? I like the capacity to find a grid reference on a phone/gps but there is no way that i would depend on an electronic device for navigation.

Alot of merit in what you say. Paper map is superior in my opinion for awareness of terrain further out than a few square kms. (although larger and higher resolution screens are making seeing greater distance easier on phones).

Always been a paper map user but switch to oruxmaps for android a year ago. Phones waterproof and the battery lasts for over 2 days. (and I carry a back up battery for another 2 days of charge). Biggest benefit is I can plan a route on the computer and reference sat photos/openstreet maps and govt topos and then directly import it all into the phone. I find the computer route planning quite enjoyable.

I have noticed that the convenience can make one lazy. I still use map to ground skills with the gps off for 99% off the walk but If im not 100% sure of my pinpoint location its very tempting to turn on the gps on for a minute and get a precise location… where as before the phone I would needed to do backbearings etc and ensure I was more precisely noting gullys/spurs and other features as I went along.

Hiking in an area I don’t know well, the paper map will be packed as a backup. As you never know when you might trip and smash the phone. (never happened yet but murphys..)

Hi There Wild,

I agree with you paper maps laminated and folded correctly and a compass are the best, I used paper maps for 17 years in the Army day in and night out and I never thought I would go to a digital device to navigate with.

I started off with Gaia GPS and I love it but am always looking for a new app to use the skills I have better, I am not someone who really needs the grid lines but they do help. I map to ground most of the time and generally have the route in my head and only pull the digital map out when I am stopped to confirm the locations.

I also use the apps to create a route for the walk and to give me a terrain profile. I honestly think that paper maps woill die a slow and painful death bt with advances in technology it will be embraced.

I also use a suunto watch for routes that is always GPS active and this is only ever in case of emergency (for me and the ill prepared).

If you have someone new relying on a digital map could be dangerous and it is all about reading the map (The legend) and being able to know how much further to go. That could be either by contour lines or the Grid lines.

Embrace tech and advance how we walk to ensure that people stay safe.

Dave

[wildwanderer]

Hi There Wild,

I agree with you paper maps laminated and folded correctly and a compass are the best, I used paper maps for 17 years in the Army day in and night out and I never thought I would go to a digital device to navigate with.

I started off with Gaia GPS and I love it but am always looking for a new app to use the skills I have better, I am not someone who really needs the grid lines but they do help. I map to ground most of the time and generally have the route in my head and only pull the digital map out when I am stopped to confirm the locations.

I also use the apps to create a route for the walk and to give me a terrain profile. I honestly think that paper maps woill die a slow and painful death bt with advances in technology it will be embraced.

I also use a suunto watch for routes that is always GPS active and this is only ever in case of emergency (for me and the ill prepared).

If you have someone new relying on a digital map could be dangerous and it is all about reading the map (The legend) and being able to know how much further to go. That could be either by contour lines or the Grid lines.

Embrace tech and advance how we walk to ensure that people stay safe.

Dave

Agree mate. The key danger of the phone apps is you have people who have no map to ground skills (eg cant translate the contours/features/grid on the map into a mental picture of the land they are walking in) and just rely on the gps to show them where they are. Using the gps all the time sucks up the battery within a few hours especially if they are also using the phone to take photos etc.. Running out of battery half way through the walk means they lose their map, gps and means to call for help! (assuming they were in reception range to begin with.)

The people who I have seen use phone apps successfully are those like yourself who have come from paper maps and already possess good map to ground skills and are willing to spend time learning how to get the best out of the application.

So while I think the tech is great, its making things a bit to easy for people to go into the bush without nav skills and who just completely rely on the gps. Worst is people relying on Google Maps.. requires a data connection and the gps! (I see this frequently in the blue mountains)

I also use a Suunto watch. Its great! Mostly to record the walk track so I can review when I return home (set for a 60 secs gps fix to prolong the battery life to 50 hours) but I also have the route programmed in there so if I do smash the phone I have the watch as a backup navigation aid.

Sorry for the thread divergence!

[Lamont]

Divergence yes, a tad, but very apt.

[Xplora]

Some people have trouble getting themselves to the start of a walk because they rely on technology. GPS in regional areas is not reliable. Directions are often wrong. I have a friend who will only go the way his in car GPS tells him (he likes her voice too). Even though he has been to our place many times he drives past the gate because the device has not told him he has arrived. Its funny but also pretty sad.

[bigwallclimber]

Some people have trouble getting themselves to the start of a walk because they rely on technology. GPS in regional areas is not reliable. Directions are often wrong. I have a friend who will only go the way his in car GPS tells him (he likes her voice too). Even though he has been to our place many times he drives past the gate because the device has not told him he has arrived. Its funny but also pretty sad.

Xplora that is pretty damn scary to say the least, sometime people do let technology run their lives.

[Xplora]

Xplora that is pretty damn scary to say the least, sometime people do let technology run their lives.

He is one of those but we have managed to take him on one overnight walk and a few day trips. When he visits us he has to go tech free. Heard a few stories yesterday about unprepared people. Someone wanted to know if the Razorback to Feathertop track would be OK for a pram. So many people relying on their phones are getting into trouble. I had a word about signage on Bogong and elsewhere on BHP. The signage budget has been sucked up a bit because of the Coroner's finding into the 2 snowboard deaths on Bogong. PV said they do not hear about many incidents or averted incidents but would like to know from people in the field with direct knowledge. Many inexperienced people are captured by experienced walkers and problems averted. I don't feel we have any duty of care to these people but there may be a moral duty. Technology (or just stupidity) makes them feel they can venture further from the tourist hubs and those most at risk would be easily identified and a gentle word of caution or a simple 'where you headed' may save them. The later question would identify if they are going in the right direction which is one of the most common problems. On busy routes you can't stop and chat to everyone though.

[jdeks]

Paper maps are basically worthless.

They fall apart after barely an hour or two out in the rain, walk a mere 200km and you usually need a whole new map, and you can't see them at all in the dark unless you have a lamp, which means carrying all that heavy whale oil.

Anyone who can't navigate by the stars alone to within a cubit over league should basically just stay home!

[wayno]

Paper maps are basically worthless.

They fall apart after barely an hour or two out in the rain, walk a mere 200km and you usually need a whole new map, and you can't see them at all in the dark unless you have a lamp, which means carrying all that heavy whale oil.

Anyone who can't navigate by the stars alone to within a cubit over league should basically just stay home!

[wildwanderer]

Paper maps are basically worthless.

They fall apart after barely an hour or two out in the rain, walk a mere 200km and you usually need a whole new map, and you can't see them at all in the dark unless you have a lamp, which means carrying all that heavy whale oil.

Anyone who can't navigate by the stars alone to within a cubit over league should basically just stay home!

These are exactly the reasons why I switched to the phone!

- My map case was heavy and developed cracks in the plastic.
- It was annoying to keep using tape to stop holes forming in the map folds/corners.
- I dont bring a headlamp on day walks. (usually)
- But mainly I was always running out of time to either print/laminate maps at officeworks or buy the gov topo paper maps (which were also bulky and fragile in the folds)
- does the twinkling of my phone notification light count as stars?

[jdeks]

These are exactly the reasons why I switched to the phone!

Have you considered upgrading to a tablet?

[Lophophaps]

I need to upgrade to tablet 10.0. Tablet 7 will be losing support in 2020.

A few years ago I walked off Bogong and reached the bottom of Staircase at about 10.30am. Nice summer day, missed the heat, and I stopped for refueling. A couple approached from the car park armed with ... a tablet which had a map. For an emergency they had a mobile phone. They had no idea about how long it would take to get to their destination, the summit. They were not well equipped. I said if they did not reach the hut by lunch to stop, eat and return. At least the track was very clear and the sun was shining. The steep bits probably made them slow a little.

I wonder how many near misses there are each year.

These are the notes I used when I first visited the Bogong High Plains.

Track notes.jpeg (10.76 KiB) Viewed 16804 times

They have been updated since then.

[Orion]

I'm not a Luddite but I didn't get a smartphone until seven months ago. I loaded it up with GPS mapping apps, tossed out the ones that I didn't like, and went walking. I liked the apps. They're not perfect but I found less reason to look at the paper maps (which I carried as well, along with a compass).

But in the rain I found that my phone was just about impossible to use. The screen was hard to read through the fancy ziplock I purchased to keep it in. And its response to my finger commands was somewhere between poor and awful. That seems like a big negative to me, at least in a place that tends to be rainy.

That said, I'm a convert. My phone goes with me now -- just like it does with practically everybody else who can afford to have one.

[wildwanderer]

But in the rain I found that my phone was just about impossible to use. The screen was hard to read through the fancy ziplock I purchased to keep it in. And its response to my finger commands was somewhere between poor and awful. That seems like a big negative to me, at least in a place that tends to be rainy.

It's a negative for sure. Any moisture on screen and it makes it difficult for the sensors to pick up finger movement. When it's raining I keep the phone in a pocket of my rainjacket but I find I still need to wipe off the screen before use.

[ricrunner]

THis

[Chunder fuzz]

There are $9 phone cases at BCf that still respond to fingers when the phone's in them. I use one when I go canyoning etc, works fine, and hasn't leaked yet.