Unprepared people in the bush

[ChrisJHC]

I’m always amazed at people I come across in the middle of nowhere who don’t seem to have any of the basic safety gear with them.

For example, over Easter I was hiking past a trail access point when a young woman (late 20s?) came up to me and asked if I knew where a particular trail started. She only had a photo of a map on her phone and a vague description. I eventually worked out what she was trying to do and showed her where the trail started. It was a 14km loop in an area with no water.

I expected her to go to her car and get some gear before starting but instead she just turned and set off. From what I could see she may have had a bottle of water in a shoulder bag but that and her phone was it.

After a short break I continued on my hike and then came across her returning to the start point. As we passed she commented that she had forgotten her hat and was going back to get it. I didn’t see her again and hope everything went okay.

So my questions are:
Should I have said something?
If so, how do I do it in an appropriate way - bearing in mind the young woman / older man dynamics?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[wildwanderer]

With the amount of people that head out on day walks who really havent any idea except that they planning to follow 'the trail' to x location Im suprised we dont see more rescues.

A number of years ago a few mates and I were doing day traverse of Mount Solitary. To the Col and back to Katoomba. Very hot day over 30 degrees, back in those days I was super fit and I remember it being a tough day.. During the return journey we came upon this guy on his way up to Solitary to camp for the night. We mentioned mentioned that we hoped he had plenty of water. He replied he had bottle of wine and tomatoes.. Said he had carried the same on another trip and it was fine. (where....your friends bbq??)

Ive meet other people who have been astounded and impressed that Im carrying a map.. (and could they have look so they can work out where they are..)

Back to your question.

I'l often say Hi and then make a joke or comment about water etc if its a hot day or I come across less prepared looking people heading out on a trip where the route is remote or uncertain. Starts a conversation usually from there you can put in more hints etc.

But at the end of the day.. its their life, their responcibility. Generally Ive found people dont like being told what to do. (so I stick to a couple of light hearted style comments, if they dont take the hint its their problem)

[Zapruda]

Some incarnation of this thread comes up every now and then in this forum and others - My answer is always the same.

Don’t say anything.

Enjoy your walk and worry about yourself. Chances are they will be fine. People need to learn from their mistakes, just like I did and I’m sure you did.

If I gave a warning to every mug in jeans and a tshirt with no rain jacket on the Main Range in April, I wouldn’t get 2 meters out of Charlotte pass.

Cheers.

[Joel]

What's the big deal? She had a bag with water and a phone and was going on a 14km day walk. I can't see any cause for concern.

[Xplora]

As much as humans try to stop it, natural selection still exists. I have come across many over the years and usually only warn those who look more like a tourist getting out of their depth. Ruined Castle and Mt. Solitary seem to attract these people hence the water tanks installed. I came across a couple who were told there was a spring at the bottom of Ruined Castle. One was quite ill and dehydrated but she also had the runs.

[wayno]

there must be thousands of people in NZ every year who would end up with borderline or the early stages of hypothermia but manage to get through without needing intervention,
theres enough rescues in the news, but its the tip of the iceberg,
i was on the tongaririo crossing, hundreds of people there, drizzle strong cold winds, i was cold in full storm gear if i stopped.... the vast majority of them werent clothed for the conditions, but i never saw anything there or in the news that anyone needed rescueing or medical attention. the crossing pushes people very hard in bad weather but most manage to get away with being ill prepared, if it was much longer, it would be a different story...
they ignore six foot high signs with massive writing warning of bad weathr and not to proceed without the right gear but i've never seen anyone turn back at that sign, they all keep going like sheep, because where the sign is, is more shelterred than the worst part of the crossing.
you go to 1800m without a shred of cover.

[taipan821]

I volunteer with my local SES unit, while searching for missing walkers isn't a regular tasking for us, some of the local tracks are...not what tourists expect.
last big search was for a missing walker who ended up taking the wrong track, she was found, about 20km from the track she was meant to go on. 600ml of water, a phone and a nighttime descent through rainforest.

[wayno]

using a cell phone to bale them out is getting pretty common, i continue to be amazed where people can get any cell phone coverage at all. often they are right on the edge of whre there is coverage, often their battery goes flat and rescuers then have to try and find them without decent location information.
often they need rescueing because they werent prepared with the right gear, couldnt navigate and got lost, and or weren't fit enough and end up too exhausted to continue...
one guy was on the run from police in the bush and used the last of his cell phone battery to video call his girlfriend, he subsequently died before he was found...

[Tasgirl]

Hi, Im new to the forum and relatively new to hiking. I tried posting an intro in the intro section several months ago, but for whatever reason, it didnt post. I therefore hope you dont mind me commenting.

I did some volunteer work at Cradle Mt as a way to thank Parks and Wildlife for allowing us hikers to use the Overland Track. Its amazing how many tourists believe they can drive to the top of Cradle Mt or even attemot to summit it without ANY preparations and late in the afternoon. On one occasion a lady and her husband were looking somewhat in need of assistance so I approached them to offer guidance. They wanted to do the Dove Lake circuit. No big deal at all. However, I noticed she was wearing open sandles. Out of concern, I suggested politely that she may opt to change them into sneakers or some kind of closed shoe for her enjoyment. Having done that track several times, you always see hobbling parents with cuts to toes or brusing from walking uneven rocks and screaming kids who wore innapropriate shoes. It never ceases to amaze me. The first half of the track is fine. Its after the stairs on the boatshed side it gets a little rugged. Not much, but enough where a closed sneaker should be good. Rather than politely say thankyou and walk away, she simply lunged into an attack telling me I had no idea what I was talking about, that she had read the "guidebook"and had done the "summit" at Wineglass Track (that beautifully paved tourist one, not Mt Amos) a few days prior in those shoes and was perfectly fine! This incident was witness by one of the fellow staff members who said, you can only guide them. What they choose to do after your advice is up to them.

On another occasion, I did the Overland track. Hub and I tend to come prepared and have relatively heavy packs. A little over 20kg. I know- I know! Anyway, this young guy and his partner came in late, sporting 10kg. The guy noticed my pack and then started preaching to me how I need to maticulasly weigh every ounce I carry and only take what I need. All fine advice perhaps. However, by the time he and his partner reached Pelion, they literally ran out of supplies. Im talking toilet paper, gas stoves, and some food. They still had 7 more days left of their hike and then started asking other hikers for supplies. He didnt even have a change of clothes and it was due to rain and snow after departing pelion! Something I learned, the hard way of course, that you MUST pack with you!

The moral of my story is... with the lady I approached. Even with polite and good intentions, the fact was, I tried to be helpful and it was met with backlash and confrontation. The other side of the story is, the so called, ultralight know-it-all who was handing me out both a lecture and unsolicited advice, ended up looking like an absolute inexperienced twat in the end. He was clearly in no position to give me advice when I had packed what was recommended and in accordance with the Cradle Mt guide book.

My advice is. Leave them unless you have some legal obligation to interfere. Like someone else said, they need to learn from their own mistakes. As a learner, I have made all the typical mistakes. Hub and I are learning all the time. When I want advice, I can pick the experienced hikers from a mile away. They have that air about them. I will seek them out and ask advic and learn a lot when I want to take it in.. I learn from them on my own terms without some sort of fenatical ultra-lighter preaching their religion onto me and clearly being both inexperienced and unprepared themselves. This girl you met would have come to realise pretty quickly if she had no water and needed it to turn around and abort the hike eventually. Water is a basic vital. You cant go far without it.

[wayno]

for some of them it will be the last mistake they ever make, because it will be fatal.
NZ''s mountain with the highest fatality rate?
Mt Cook? no..
Mt Aspring? no
Mt tasman? no
a mountain in the Mt cook national park? No
a mountain in the Aspiring national park? no
a mountain in Fiordland? no
a mountain in nelson lakes? no
a mountain in the south island? no

it's Mt Taranaki... it has one of the highest no's of people going up who get out of their depth on a mountain that can be a straight forward walk on a good day and become absolutely treacherous with appalling weather, and ice that can be rock hard and sleek on a reasonable incline...

[Warin]

Hi, Im new to the forum and relatively new to hiking.

Welcome.

On another occasion, I did the Overland track. Hub and I tend to come prepared and have relatively heavy packs. A little over 20kg. I know- I know! Anyway, this young guy and his partner came in late, sporting 10kg. The guy noticed my pack and then started preaching to me how I need to maticulasly weigh every ounce I carry and only take what I need. All fine advice perhaps. However, by the time he and his partner reached Pelion, they literally ran out of supplies. Im talking toilet paper, gas stoves, and some food. They still had 7 more days left of their hike and then started asking other hikers for supplies. He didnt even have a change of clothes and it was due to rain and snow after departing pelion!

Yep. Experts - someone who has learnt from their own mistakes.
The most forceful learning is from mistakes that are painful, like burning your fingers when young on a fire. Cautions such as 'don't do that' might not be believed.

Advice, if sought, may be accepted or just considered, sometimes rejected, sometimes accepted in total, sometimes partially acted on.
Advice that is given unsought may be taken as a personal criticism and rejected out of hand.
If you don't know the person then they have no idea of how any advice from you is given, is it from real expertise (experience), book learning, or just an opinion.
So it may be best, if you must offer advice, to indicate where such advice comes from?

At the moment my OT pack is some17 kg.. I'll probably add a kilo to that. Note - that is not a winter pack where I'd plan on snow all the time.

7 days to go and out of supplies? Should have reversed course at half their supply use and not reaching their half way point.
Umm how many days before they ran out of supplies? Definitely a lack of planning and a lack of monitoring their supply use!

[ChrisJHC]

What's the big deal? She had a bag with water and a phone and was going on a 14km day walk. I can't see any cause for concern.

Hi, Joel. The “cause for concern” is that when things go wrong, other people have to go and get them out of trouble. Being unprepared (as appeared to be the situation in this case) increases the likelihood of things going wrong. Assuming she had 600mL of water, I would suggest that is probably not enough for a 3-4 hour walk and certainly had no contingency. Mobile phone would probably have got reception but as others have said batteries always run out just when you need them!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LachlanB]

Mistakes happen, but it never hurts to ask someone if they need a hand, or are sure about what they're doing.

I'm a fairly experienced walker, and yet only recently I made the sort of mistake that'd put me right in the 'unprepared' box.
I went for an overnighter to Bushfold Flats in the ACT, somewhere I'd never been before. Not remote at all, and a quick glance at my map before I headed off suggested there was a water source.

Up on top of the Mt Tennent ridge, I ran into an older gentleman going for a walk from Booroomba rocks. We had a chat, I mentioned that I was camping, and he offered me some water- as I only had 3L for two days. I declined, because I was expecting a water source at Bushfold Flats, and we continued on our separate ways.

Of course, when I arrived at Bushfold Flats, I discovered that the 'water source' marked on the map is a rather murky dam and slightly dubious dam. To my salvation, the guy I'd met earlier came back through Bushfold Flats, and again offered me some of his excess water. This time I was more than happy to accept, and I'm sure he thought I was a right unprepared fool.

[Tasgirl]

Warin,

Thankyou for the welcome!

Unfortunately, I dont quite know how to quote your text, like you did to me.

In answer to your question, they were into day 4. They stayed an another day at Pelion. No idea why. They were nice enough but they latched on a little to us to the point that it got a little annoying. They also planned a few nights at Pine Valley. We gave them a cannister and it seems they got dribs and drabs of bog roll paper from other hikers from what they could spare. It was quite innapropriate IMHO. As for food, i think they had just bare bones. They trotted onwards. Presumably they were forced to abort Pine Valley and additional night at narcissus. No idea what happened to them in the end.

I have admiration for people who can carry 17kgs in winter. Is that considered lightweight/ultralight? I have no issues with Lightweight/ultralighters. Esp, the experienced ones who have learned years of valuable lessons and have a clear understanding of their limitations. I only cant stand the ones who follow an American trend, set off with little experience or understanding of their limitations, preach to others and then find themselves in a bind! I would do it if I could. But I need confidence and to learn what works for me and what doesnt. My pack weight is coming from a sleeping bag that is letting me down and my sleeping mat. Im compensating for them as they are not keeping me either comfortable or warm. I learned this from a very uncomfortable nights sleep in 6 degree temps one night at Scott Kilvert last summer. My bag is meant to rate down to -16. I get cold and freeze in it at 10+ degrees, so I wont be winter hiking anytime soon!. I also have a chronic illness'. My medication bag which I MUST pack is a little under 1kg alone. Ive tried lightening it but I need my meds and some weigh a ton. My FAK is also heavy which has packed several things hubby and I need. Weve had a few "mishaps" on a number of hiking journeys. And I mean doozys! On my very first Overland track adventure, to save weight, I packed a fairly moderate FAK. It still consisted of pressure immobilisation Bandages, additional bandages and tape and a few other essentials. I got banged up a fair bit and used most of my supplies including my pressure bandages!. By the time I reached Pelion, a lovely guy, experienced hiker took pity on me. He tried to give me some of his supplies for which I declined. I have strong views that you should be fully prepared and self sufficient and not rely on the generosity of others who ARE prepared. With that said, if it was in reverse, I would help. For me though, I prefer to be self sufficient. I think to some extent it was wrong what that other couple did. Even though we helped them out.. I ensure Im fully self sufficient and prepared for emergencies Particularly given we have been in one before. Lessons, lessons!

I would love to pick the brains of some of the hikers here bc I have loads of questions.

[Warin]

Unfortunately, I dont quite know how to quote your text, like you did to me.

On the right hand side of each posting/response you see a small box with QUOTE in red .. click on that and you should find a 'post a reply' 'thingy open up with the post 'quoted inside it.

For your own posts you'll also find an 'edit' box - hand to fix typos etc that I miss!

I have admiration for people who can carry 17kgs in winter.

That is not me. I think 18 kg will be my shoulder season pack weight .. with 1 kg of camera gear and 10 days of food...

With a little exportation yo can find postings on most things ..

FAK - viewtopic.php?f=58&t=27543

My pack OT shoulder is on viewtopic.php?f=25&t=27516

There is heaps of stuff ... but like all advice you have to evaluate it for yourself. Some comes from different climates, some for different interests.

[Lizzy]

Hi Tasgirl,
It’s sounds as if maybe you are looking at a extreme (not lower as I previously wrote-thanks Wayno) limit of your sleeping bag- not a women’s comfort rating. Some brands advertise the bag at the extreme limit to make it sound good- but it is actually a temp that a man can survive in for 6 hours if I recall correctly.
Good thing to check for when buying a bag!
Regards
Lizzy

[Lindsay]

We all make mistakes. On my last hike at Coolah Tops only a few weeks ago I took only 1lt of water to save weight. Although the distance was short it was a rough scramble much of the way and the heat was unseasonable for that time of year. I soon realised I would have to ration my water and drank the last as I began the steep climb out of the valley. It was uncomfortable rather than life threatening but by the time I got back to the car it was a lesson learned.

[Tasgirl]

Hi Tasgirl,
It’s sounds as if maybe you are looking at a lower limit of your sleeping bag- not a women’s comfort rating. Some brands advertise the bag at the lower limit to make it sound good- but it is actually a temp that a man can survive in for 6 hours if I recall correctly.
Good thing to check for when buying a bag!
Regards
Lizzy

Thanks Lizzy. I think you might be right. My bag is the S2S Traverse II 850 down filled. I got it before the new comfort ratings came out. They got superseeded by the Latitude series which I think has the new comfort rating. My DH has the traverse 1. He generally sleeps warm. Even in a bag with less down fill rating. I need a new bag I think. Even coupling it with a S2S special liner and Icebreaker base layers I froze. I recently purchased a SOL bivvy to accompany it. Thats how cold that bag is for me. Plus it weighs a ton!

Any recommendations? Im a side sleeper too. I dont like the mummy style bag either. I find it sufforcating in terms of movement. Or lack thereof

[ofuros]

Happens to the usually prepared people too....all because I assumed all my gear was packed, as it is usually is, grab & go, but I didn't double check to make sure.

So I spent a cool Sunday night under the a twinkly stars on Mt Bangalore, using my day pack with camera gear as a pillow, squashed akubra hat as a hip pad in the pebbly dirt, nibbled by ants & pin cushioned by mozzies, in a pair of shorts, light walking shirt, fleece top & a beany pulled down over my ears & neck...covered in layers of eucalyptus leaves & branches, which were surprisingly warm, shivered once or twice throughout the night so added more.

So if you find a spot up there that looks like a lowland gorilla has been nesting there...you know who & why.

Learnings.....Assumption is the mother of all £&%#ups.
Check your gear before heading off + stick to your plan & don't add on extras because you have a curious mind & want to see how big the drop was in the gorge....otherwise you'll run out of daylight & life giving water.

[wayno]

there can be three ratings for a sleeping bag
the comfort temperature
lower limit and
extreme limit

the extreme limit is the temp that you should be able to survive in it but wno't be comfortable
comfort and lower limit are as much to do with how you sleep, comfot for those who spread their limbs out and lower limit for those who pull their limbs in to conserve heat, but they are only average ratings
people vary and you need to understand how your body works against the average, some people need warmer than stated temp ratings to be comfortable, some can cope with lower ratings,

example here of a sleeping bag rating.

http://www.exped.com/international/en/p ... 80%9316c3f

Comfort Temperature:
-8°C
Limit Temperature:
-16°C
Extreme Temperature:
-33°C

based on how you sleep you would either only expect it to keep you warm down to -8 or -16. -8 if you'r spread out in your sleeping bag, but you would then be cold at -16 unless you switched to being curled up.
you would not expect to be comfortable at all at -33 degrees, you would feel cold and you may not be able to sleep much if at all. you would just be surviving at that temp and hopefully staving off hypothermia.
you can add a few degrees if you wear more clothes, but its a variable game based on what you are going to wear. so its complicated to measure all that.

[rcaffin]

A week in the snow, ski touring by tent: me 14 kg, my wife 12 kg, complete.
But as some of you know, there are a few decades of UL experience behind that.
All the same, it means that those sorts of weights are possible, albeit sometimes needing a few $$ to get there.

Imhe, many 'good' quilts and SBs are let down by an inadequate mat underneath. It happens, all the time.

Cheers
Roger

[wayno]

too many rescues going on in NZ now to post without spamming the site.... and they are cutting back on the rescue helicopters that are funded... prepare for more fatailities and protracted rescues

[ricrunner]

I rarely bushwalk these days mainly bicycle tour. I never ever go out anywhere in temps above 34 degree( except working). Sometimes it has been hotter cycling and I pull up and find a cool spot or will stop for the day and camp. But I will say I always carry at least10 litres of water, more if my dog is with me and always a Sawyer water filter, also enough food to get me to the next town including emergency supplies for emergencies. As an ex-soldier I was trained to expect the worst and always be prepared. This has left me in good stead ever since my career ended.

[wayno]

I As an ex-soldier I was trained to expect the worst and always be prepared. This has left me in good stead ever since my career ended.

Christchurch doctor's drowning highlights 'inherent' river crossing risks

A Christchurch doctor who drowned while training for the Coast to Coast was inexperienced at river crossings and panicked before being swept downstream.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/103087 ... sing-risks

yes and that is what i see missing from a lot of young walkers now.... they grow up just doing what their peers do, wing it. just do it, minimal preparation and planning.
usually they go out and scrape through, but i know of so many near misses where things could have gone a lot worse.. It's hard to know how many incidents there are in the bush, because most will never be reported

today theres lots of blogs and videos online, people see someone doing a trip , often in good weather and they don't have any idea about the range of weather conditions for that place and they just head off expecting the same conditions themselves and they don't prepare for any other scenario... they don't have extra food if they are held up. a big problem in NZ is the availability of huts and people not taking any emergency shelter because they are planning to be in a hut every night....


NZ trampers are far more cautious than mos of the overseas people who come here, usually because we know how our outdoors can turn around and bite hard.... we've all had adverse experiences... people come from overseas and expect the easier conditions they are used often to.
we'll get a year of good weather and people are flooding the internet about how great the weather is here, then the next season everything will turn to custard and it will be a completely different place.
the weather forecasting isnt great here, because it comes from large bodies of water where very little weather information can be accurately gathered compared to places where there are large land masses...
NZers don't fully trust the forecast. I walk to work, i take a raincoat every day in my bag regardless of the forecast. if i trusted the forecast i end up getting wet at some stage
we had wind up to 200km/h and tornadoes the other day, it wasnt forecast...
ultralighting hasnt taken off here, the gear is too flimsy for our highly changeable weather,, i read about peoples shelters breaking or shredding in the wind. or they have to look hard to find a sheltered enough place where they can pitch it, or they change their plans and head to a hut,
ultralighters are more likely to sit out a storm in town than normal NZ trampers.
buy a shelter that was designed in a place where the weather conditions are the same as you are going to use it..
today it seems thres more casualisation of recreation, people dip into more activiies because they have been setup to make it easier for them to do so, theres lost of recreational activities people can do as a one off, decades ago it wasnt like that... you tended to commit more to particular activities in organised groups where there was a good skill level and you learnt what you needed to... but now people want to be more independant before they have the necessary skill level to function safely all the time.
there trend for river crossing seems to have become, one person cross and when its difficult someone else makes sure they capture the other people in difficulty with their camera.... there are exponentially more recent photos and videos i see on the web of people crossing streams and rivers on their own than i can find anymore with people crossing as a group. NZ has kept its drowning rate relatively low by being more systematic about crossing rivers in a group. it was drilled into us by experienced people.... but foreigners are far less likely to do so, they pride themselves on their independance... often NZers are having to bale out foreigners in the bush because they get out of their depth.
their decision making skills and risk management skills can be poor to apalling, every risky thing they do is exciting and fun, until it goes pear shaped...
i see people bragging online about pushing their limits in storms and laughing it off. i know people who used to do that and are now dead or had serious accidents. rescue helicopter services are flat out rescueing people from incidents that often should never have happened in the first place if the people knew what they were doing.... without the helicopters there would be a lot more deaths which is what used to happen, but the young people don't realise that... but the helicopters cant always get to people in time. and in NZ they don't have the funding anymore and they are starting to look at cutting at least three rescue helicopters around the country that all cover mountainous areas.... and specialise in rescueing people from the mountains...and they are often flat out rescueing people.

[Lophophaps]

Any recommendations? I'm a side sleeper too. I don't like the mummy style bag either. I find it suffocating in terms of movement. Or lack thereof

Tasgirl, welcome to the forum. There's a detailed article about sleeping bags in Bushwalk Australia April 2018. This is on the home screen, top right.

While most ill-prepared people will manage, perhaps uncomfortably, some will not and require rescuing. Gentle non-threatening advice may not work, but at least the attempt was made, useful if the person comes to grief, which will not be on my conscience. Trouble is some people simply cannot accept advice - they know best. Letting them fail in a mainly harmless way is best so they can learn. My OLT pack for 12 days (many side-trips) was about 24 kilograms. Starving is not on my bucket list.

[north-north-west]

I As an ex-soldier I was trained to expect the worst and always be prepared. This has left me in good stead ever since my career ended.

Christchurch doctor's drowning highlights 'inherent' river crossing risks

A Christchurch doctor who drowned while training for the Coast to Coast was inexperienced at river crossings and panicked before being swept downstream.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/103087 ... sing-risks

yes and that is what i see missing from a lot of young walkers now.... they grow up just doing what their peers do, wing it. just do it, minimal preparation and planning.
usually they go out and scrape through, but i know of so many near misses where things could have gone a lot worse.. It's hard to know how many incidents there are in the bush, because most will never be reported

today theres lots of blogs and videos online, people see someone doing a trip , often in good weather and they don't have any idea about the range of weather conditions for that place and they just head off expecting the same conditions themselves and they don't prepare for any other scenario... they don't have extra food if they are held up. a big problem in NZ is the availability of huts and people not taking any emergency shelter because they are planning to be in a hut every night....


NZ trampers are far more cautious than mos of the overseas people who come here, usually because we know how our outdoors can turn around and bite hard.... we've all had adverse experiences... people come from overseas and expect the easier conditions they are used often to.
we'll get a year of good weather and people are flooding the internet about how great the weather is here, then the next season everything will turn to custard and it will be a completely different place.
the weather forecasting isnt great here, because it comes from large bodies of water where very little weather information can be accurately gathered compared to places where there are large land masses...
NZers don't fully trust the forecast. I walk to work, i take a raincoat every day in my bag regardless of the forecast. if i trusted the forecast i end up getting wet at some stage
we had wind up to 200km/h and tornadoes the other day, it wasnt forecast...
ultralighting hasnt taken off here, the gear is too flimsy for our highly changeable weather,, i read about peoples shelters breaking or shredding in the wind. or they have to look hard to find a sheltered enough place where they can pitch it, or they change their plans and head to a hut,
ultralighters are more likely to sit out a storm in town than normal NZ trampers.
buy a shelter that was designed in a place where the weather conditions are the same as you are going to use it..
today it seems theres more casualisation of recreation, people dip into more activiies because they have been setup to make it easier for them to do so, theres lost of recreational activities people can do as a one off, decades ago it wasnt like that... you tended to commit more to particular activities in organised groups where there was a good skill level and you learnt what you needed to... but now people want to be more independent before they have the necessary skill level to function safely all the time.
there trend for river crossing seems to have become, one person cross and when its difficult someone else makes sure they capture the other people in difficulty with their camera.... there are exponentially more recent photos and videos i see on the web of people crossing streams and rivers on their own than i can find anymore with people crossing as a group. NZ has kept its drowning rate relatively low by being more systematic about crossing rivers in a group. it was drilled into us by experienced people.... but foreigners are far less likely to do so, they pride themselves on their independence... often NZers are having to bale out foreigners in the bush because they get out of their depth.
their decision making skills and risk management skills can be poor to appalling, every risky thing they do is exciting and fun, until it goes pear shaped...
i see people bragging online about pushing their limits in storms and laughing it off. i know people who used to do that and are now dead or had serious accidents. rescue helicopter services are flat out rescueing people from incidents that often should never have happened in the first place if the people knew what they were doing.... without the helicopters there would be a lot more deaths which is what used to happen, but the young people don't realise that... but the helicopters cant always get to people in time. and in NZ they don't have the funding anymore and they are starting to look at cutting at least three rescue helicopters around the country that all cover mountainous areas.... and specialise in rescuing people from the mountains...and they are often flat out rescuing people.

As Rob Palmer once said: You get away with it, until you don't.

[Strider]

Any recommendations? Im a side sleeper too. I dont like the mummy style bag either. I find it sufforcating in terms of movement. Or lack thereof

Have you considered a quilt? There are two very good quilt makers on these forums (undercling_mike and simonm).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eremophila]

Any recommendations? Im a side sleeper too. I dont like the mummy style bag either. I find it sufforcating in terms of movement. Or lack thereof

Have you considered a quilt? There are two very good quilt makers on these forums (undercling_mike and simonm).

I'll second that recommendation.

[Huntsman247]

My advice is. Leave them unless you have some legal obligation to interfere. Like someone else said, they need to learn from their own mistakes.

Allowing people to make mistakes is good but within reason. At the end of the day, who gives a damn about some shmucks opinion. If it could lead to someone being lost in remoter area in Australian Bush it could be potentially life-threatening. If it's a matter of not having enough tushy paper or gas. Let them learn. You've got scratchy leaves or a fire to get by. But if it's water or more important equipment and it's an area that is less frequented. I'd personally prefer to cop and ear full than to regret not saying something if it turned out seriously bad for them. Most unprepared people I've decided to give advice to have been pretty grateful anyways.

It's amazing how many people I've seen who think 2-3L of water is sufficient for a multi-day when they don't know if there is water. As in completely unaware of, if there even is a source not just if it is flowing. Particularly in the warmer months when beginners or general folk think that it's a great time to go hiking in difficult terrain were your exposed and sweat heaps and when water sources dry up.

[Hazbulah]

Camping on top of solitary the other week, two walkers came past at about 5pm. Stopped for a brief chat, said they had stayed out too long and needed to get back to narrowneck. No warm clothes or head torches. Shudder to think what the descent off solitary would have been like in the dark.