Pack hauling techniques?

[Orion]

The system I suggested above needs three krabs and three prusiks.

One way of doing this is to have a krab fixed to an anchor, often a tree. The haul rope goes through this krab. The rope to the pack has a Bachmann knot, like in the picture but with the cord going up. The other half of the rope has another Bachmann knot, with a big loop. The two knots are connected so that as the loop is pushed down with the foot the other half of the rope goes up, and is then locked by the Bachmann on this rope, allowing the hauler to rest between hauls.

Although I get the gist of it I can't figure out exactly what you're describing. What's the third prusik cord for? Is the top Bachmann clipped into the same carabiner as the rope runs through? Are the tree anchor and foot loop part of the 20m of 7mm cord or additional pieces of webbing/cord?

A diagram is worth a thousand words.

[Lophophaps]

Problem is my drawing skills are limited, so I set up an example at home. A few points. I used laid rope, as this saved me undoing a climbing rope. To get everything in frame I had to show the system as it would be after the last haul for that load, which is a stuff sack. To show detail I used prusik loops that I take climbing. Bushwalking prusiks would be thinner. From the top.

There's an anchor krab, through which the white haul rope goes. This krab is clipped into the anchor, which for this example is another krab. Trees are in short supply inside the mansion.

The red arrow points to the top Bachmann knot, which is hard against the top krab. The red cord goes to the locking Bachmann knot, green ellipse, which holds the pack between hauls. If the prussik lops are short a third one may be necessary. The yellow cord, dark blue ellipse, is the one that is pushed down by the foot. The load is clipped with a krab. On a walk I would use a bowline, very quick and easy to make. The bowline has a stopper knot to avoid the bowline coming undone and to spread the load through both shoulder straps. I don't trust haul loops on packs for hauling - too weak.

Haul system.png (226.99 KiB) Viewed 18814 times

The second pic shows two pulleys that I have used on climbs. The top one is about 50 grams and the bottom one is about 25 grams. They greatly reduce friction when hauling and make it much easier. I always back up the pulleys with a krab or loop of tape so that if the pulley breaks the load is not lost. A pulley is unsuitable for belaying people.

[Huntsman247]

Don't you need to be rather strong in the arms and core for rock climbing? I've been watching the world championships in rock climbing on youtube and honestly, some of those guys and women are pretty muscular...

Those indoor competitions are more like gymnastics than what your typical rock climber does. I'm not sure there's an analog in the bushwalking world. What would the World Championships in Bushwalking look like? :-)

Most climbers I know don't really look that strong, except maybe in the forearms. Bushwalking, in my experience, is about 90% legs.

Well since I've never really done proper rock climbing I'll take your word for it.
You are right. Most bushwalks mainly use your legs. And most walkers will probably not experience much more than that. I guess it depends what terrain your traversing. But if you do lots of scrabbling, most of which you would be wearing a pack or areas where pack hauling is more frequent. I don't think getting a bit stronger in upperbody and core is detrimental. At the very least you'll feel better and healthier and find it easier to put your pack on. Lol.

[Huntsman247]

Problem is my drawing skills are limited, so I set up an example at home. A few points. I used laid rope, as this saved me undoing a climbing rope. To get everything in frame I had to show the system as it would be after the last haul for that load, which is a stuff sack. To show detail I used prusik loops that I take climbing. Bushwalking prusiks would be thinner. From the top.

There's an anchor krab, through which the white haul rope goes. This krab is clipped into the anchor, which for this example is another krab. Trees are in short supply inside the mansion.

The red arrow points to the top Bachmann knot, which is hard against the top krab. The red cord goes to the locking Bachmann knot, green ellipse, which holds the pack between hauls. If the prussik lops are short a thrird one may be necessary. The yellow cord, dark blue ellipse, is the one that is pushed down by the foot. The load is clipped with a krab. On a walk I would use a bowline, very quick and easy to make. The bowline has a stopper knot to avoid the bowline coming undone and to spread the load through both shoulder straps. I don't trust haul loops on packs for hauling - too weak.

Haul system.png

The second pic shows two pulleys that I have used on climbs. The top one is about 50 grams and the bottom one is about 25 grams. They greatly reduce friction when hauling and make it much easier. I always back up the pulleys with a krab or loop of tape so that if the pulley breaks the load is not lost. A pulley is unsuitable for belaying people.

Pulleys.JPG

How do you use the pulley? I'm assuming that would be reliant on there being a tree with a large enough branch that extends beyond the edge of the cliff/edge?

[Orion]

How do you use the pulley?

It goes on the top carabiner and the rope goes through the pulley instead of the carabiner itself. Less friction means an easier haul. There are some pretty minimalist pulleys that are quite light. I have one that is just the grooved plastic wheel part. It's designed to slide right onto a carabiner.

[Orion]

The red arrow points to the top Bachmann knot, which is hard against the top krab. The red cord goes to the locking Bachmann knot, green ellipse, which holds the pack between hauls.

Thanks for posting the photo. I had a different picture in my head as I've never rigged the hitches together like that. When I've built haul systems the top hitch was statically connected to the anchor. I presume there is an advantage to yours, perhaps in ease of managing the hitches, but I'm lacking the visualization to see it in my head.

One other possibility is to take a ratcheting pulley. That's the standard for hauling on a climb and nowadays there are some pretty light ones that would be sufficient for a backpack. The Petzl Micro Traxion comes to mind. It weighs 85g but would save you a carabiner and a prusik cord, so the effective weight would be more like 40g or so. They are rated to a minimum diameter of 8mm ropes but I'm pretty sure that's conservative. I have a Mini Traxion that has the same rating and it bites down really hard on 6mm cord.

[Lophophaps]

The top krab or pulley is usually clipped into a sling, which for bushwalking can be very light. The main aspect is that the anchor must be bombproof, must not fail. A tree or suitable piece of rock will suffice. Knowing how to make an anchor is useful. I've jammed loose rocks into cracks to make a very secure anchors.

My gear is pretty old; my first krabs were Bonatti and made of steel, very heavy. The wheel-only pulley sounds neat. The main advantage in my system is that the lower Bachman knot, red cord, can be hauled by hand by a second person, thus taking the strain off the person pushing with the leg. It would be possible to rig the red Bachman so that it just sits there. A lightweight rachet sounds good and would be simpler. Carrying slightly more weight to save time may be an acceptable trade-off. My lowest diameter rope for people on bushwalks is 7 mm, so the Mini Traxion should work. Gear like this is usually for climbers. Only bushwalkers doing a lot of hauls need such items. Krabs and prusik loops are flexible.

[rcaffin]

It all sounds too complex - and it sounds as though the real problem is very heavy packs. Try solving that part instead.

For Wollemi I carry 40 m of 6.5 mm Kernmantel plus slings and Aly crabs, but we routinely abseil on that.
In other difficult (sandstone) country I carry 20 m of 4.5 mm Kernmantel. We have 'slithered' on that quite happily.
Around places like Kosci I carry 20 m of white plaited 3 mm 'blind cord', more as a reflex than as a need.

All of these will hold our weight - even the white cord, if we treat then with respect. Usually they are doubled, for retrieval.

We have pack-hauled with all of these. Having UL packs really helps here as it is so much easier to pull them up. Sometimes we skip the pack hauling completely: I climb up without pack and find a secure spot with an anchor. This bit is obligatory under any scene. Then I top-rope Sue up with her pack on - a tight top rope is very encouraging. Then I go down, pick up my pack, and Sue brings me up on a tight top-rope. Yes, it helps that we were both good rock-climbers.

By using a proper rock-climbing belay method even thin rope works. That is, rope around the body, anchored by the left hand, and pull with the right hand and the legs. NO hardware needed.

Cheers
Roger

[davidf]

My general go to is 5mm cord. Doubled 10mm is easy to hand over hand or abseil by body or wog knot on a single biner. I normally use a simple fly or mid for shelter and use this cord also for set up. If packrafting use my throw rope, climbing/canyoning proper rope. If I were to do a lot of hauling on a bushwalk 6mm would be more friendly. If you know how to make anchors the systems above can be made simpler by having a micro traxion/ropeman device on the anchor and a prussic loop on the pulling end ad a foot loop, this can if need be using a tail end of the haul line.

[Lophophaps]

While pack hauling is to be avoided if possible, in some places it is necessary. A pack with food for more than a few days can be unwieldy and pull a person off balance. The space may be too small for a person with a pack. The person may not have enough rock skills to manage.

I'll use a smaller diameter cord for less serious places, but at the fall-die end of the spectrum a safety factor is needed. Thin cords do not have this. Knowing how to rig a haul system should be known by all experienced bushwalkers. I've been using knots and rock climbing for decades, and can do about a dozen knots behind my back, which is like at night. Once the rope is out it would take me a minute or so to rig the Bachmanns.

I've led - effectively soloed - some moderate rock sections on bushwalks while I was wearing my pack. Then I top roped the party. Being good on rock assists. I have not seen a waist belay for decades; figure eights and Sticht plates have been around since the early 1970s. If the climber falls on a waist belay the belayer is in trouble, now part of the belaying system, and probably in some pain if the weight is on the soft waist tissue. An Italian Hitch is better.

Three krabs, a sling and 20 metres of 7 mm cord weighs under a kilogram, 500 grams or less each for two or more people. A thinner cord may suffice and is certainly lighter, but I don't like the resistance to cuts or the lack of a safety factor.

[Huntsman247]

Given that you can't always use a pully due to the availability of things to anchor it too. I don't really want to just haul a fancy paperweight around.
This set up is far from perfect but I'm thinking it is a good compromise to weight and making it easier.

See drawing. Blue = 20m 6mm Dyneema core with polyester cover (450gm). Red = 6mm nylon cord (25gm p/m)
For the Prusik loop that you would use as a handle, I've made it with 2 barrel knots that use 8 loops. Secured by stoppers. Even with 6mm cord it is easy to grab and hold. See pic.

With this, you can easily rest mid haul and the thick loop doesn't cut into your hand with the thinner cord. You could probably go with thinner stuff too.

Thoughts?

[Neo]

Some kind of roller for the rock edge. Will save the rope and save some friction.

During this thread I have thought of:
*Tape sling to make an anchor
*Carabiner there
*Prusik sling, carabiner and pulley close to the edge
*Rope/cord

This should make a simple 3:1 if no human hanging!

[Lophophaps]

Huntsman, that's a good simple system. I like being able to rest between hauls and the barrel knot, which is a multi-turn fishermans' knot. Pulling a weight of about 20 kilograms plus friction on the edge would be hard for the arms, although it may be possible to rig it so that there's no edge friction. I still like Neo's
https://m.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Crevas ... sse-rescue
system as it takes the strain off the arms with mechanical advantage. My method allows the legs to do most of the work, with a possible assist from a second person hauling the live rope. Carrying a few krabs and prusiks does not bother me unduly. I like the safety factor of thicker cords.

Perhaps the key point is that there are a variety of ways to rig hauls, and to select that which suits the trip and party. I know:
* five ways to belay without a belaying device, such as a figure eight;
* three ways to abseil without a belaying device, such as a figure eight (not classical!);
* three ways to join ropes;
* about 15 types of bowlines, including one that needs just one hand, takes about four seconds;
* about five different types of lashings, useful for S&M; and
* too many ways to fall while leading.

Being able to select the best way gives a lot of flexibility. Knowing a number of ways to do things is good. Being proficent at most of these should be a goal.

[Neo]

Something like this

I may have missed a point of connection :{

[Orion]

Given that you can't always use a pully due to the availability of things to anchor it [to]....

...See drawing...

I don't understand. In your diagram the rope is anchored to an anchor, presumably a tree.

[Orion]

* about 15 types of bowlines, including one that needs just one hand, takes about four seconds;

Wow, I didn't know there were 15 types of bowlines. I've never used one, ever. I learned how to tie a bowline once, years ago, and then promptly forgot how. But since there are 15 kinds I could probably just wrap the rope around itself semi-randomly and come up with one. I recall it has something to do with a rabbit and a hole.

[Warin]

Wow, I didn't know there were 15 types of bowlines. I've never used one, ever. I learned how to tie a bowline once, years ago, and then promptly forgot how. But since there are 15 kinds I could probably just wrap the rope around itself semi-randomly and come up with one. I recall it has something to do with a rabbit and a hole.

Got to start with a tree and a hole.

[Lophophaps]

Wow, I didn't know there were 15 types of bowlines. I've never used one, ever. I learned how to tie a bowline once, years ago, and then promptly forgot how. But since there are 15 kinds I could probably just wrap the rope around itself semi-randomly and come up with one. I recall it has something to do with a rabbit and a hole.

I'm not that good. See
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2897.0
which says:
"My research found 157 Bowline NAMES including bends and hitches with 50 names describing the same knot. There is also one instance of a knot being called a Bowline (The Baker Bowline) when it is actually a variation of a Trucker?s Hitch. This leaves us with 139 separate Bowline KNOTS. As hard as I tried, I?m sure I missed a few references to Bowlines and I haven?t researched instances where different knots have gotten the same name. Allowing for mistakes I feel this would give us approximately 135 Bowline knot variations. Other than the example above I also haven?t recorded instances where knots are identified as Bowlines but are also identified as non-bowline knots."

Even if the above list is miles over the top there should be at least 50 types. The main ones are the conventional bowline, this bowline made around a waist using one hand, and a bowline on a bight, good for making leg loops. Bowlines with a free end should have a stopper knot.

Here's some pictures.
http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_bow ... thods.html

[Orion]

50 ?!?!

Someone much better at mathematics might be able to come up with some sort of limit to the number of possible bowlines. But I'm really surprised there are more than about 5. I still feel that I don't need to know even one bowline to haul a pack. Or tie down a tent. Or do crevasse rescue. Or rock climb. Or solo or a big wall.

I know some people use a bowline to tie in because it's easier to undo after a fall than a figure-8. But other than that I've always thought of the bowline and its variants (very many variants, it turns out) as kind of old-fashioned. I always have pictures in my mind of old guys in black & white photos or woodcut prints.

So what do you use them for?

[rcaffin]

If the climber falls on a waist belay the belayer is in trouble, now part of the belaying system, and probably in some pain if the weight is on the soft waist tissue. An Italian Hitch is better.
There is some point to the criticism. Very often we would use a crab at the back to take the load off the waist. However, if you are going to be hauling either a person or a very heavy pack up, having the rope over your shoulder and using your legs for the real uplift is usually better.
And yes, I have done this with a fallen person who was climbing as a second.

Cheers
Roger

[Orion]

I have not seen a waist belay for decades; figure eights and Sticht plates have been around since the early 1970s. If the climber falls on a waist belay the belayer is in trouble, now part of the belaying system, and probably in some pain if the weight is on the soft waist tissue. An Italian Hitch is better.

That's funny, I was thinking how I hadn't seen anyone use a figure eight or Sticht plate in a long time.

I've hip belayed from above with 7mm perlon for short bits in the mountains. I don't believe it was dangerous. I had my wife at the other end in one case. And while she didn't fall I gave her plenty of tension both during her climb and subsequent descent.

[Lophophaps]

50 ?!?!Someone much better at mathematics might be able to come up with some sort of limit to the number of possible bowlines. But I'm really surprised there are more than about 5. I still feel that I don't need to know even one bowline to haul a pack. Or tie down a tent. Or do crevasse rescue. Or rock climb. Or solo or a big wall.

I know some people use a bowline to tie in because it's easier to undo after a fall than a figure-8. But other than that I've always thought of the bowline and its variants (very many variants, it turns out) as kind of old-fashioned. I always have pictures in my mind of old guys in black & white photos or woodcut prints.

So what do you use them for?

Bowlines are good for making a secure loop on the rope, usually at the end. When hauling or lowering a pack the bowline goes through both shoulder straps, spreading the load. My tent guys are tied to the tent with bowlines, never failed. Most crevasse rescues do not need a bowline-type knot. I tie into my rock climbing harness with a figure eight knot. If I had to give a lot of support to a person and only had a rope I'd make a triple bowline, with loops for each leg and the waist or chest. With a loop of tape I can make a swami seat, which I climbed on for many years. While perhaps not used as much as was the case, bowlines and other knots should be known to bushwalkers and climbers.

Very often we would use a crab at the back to take the load off the waist. However, if you are going to be hauling either a person or a very heavy pack up, having the rope over your shoulder and using your legs for the real uplift is usually better.
And yes, I have done this with a fallen person who was climbing as a second.

In over 40 years of climbing and bushwalking I've never hauled a dead weight of a person. Always there's been some assistance from the person. I've lowered and kept a tight rope on a lot of people, and this is best done from a belay that does not involve the waist or shoulder. The collar bone is fragile.

That's funny, I was thinking how I hadn't seen anyone use a figure eight or Sticht plate in a long time.

I've hip belayed from above with 7mm perlon for short bits in the mountains. I don't believe it was dangerous. I had my wife at the other end in one case. And while she didn't fall I gave her plenty of tension both during her climb and subsequent descent.

I cited older belaying devices to show how long they've been used. Gear should be chosen to suit the trip and skills of the party.

[Orion]

If I had to give a lot of support to a person and only had a rope I'd make a triple bowline, with loops for each leg and the waist or chest. With a loop of tape I can make a swami seat, which I climbed on for many years.

Come to think of it, that time I mentioned where I belayed my wife with a 7mm cord I may have in fact tied some sort of bowline. I really don't remember, just that the only thing I brought was a 30m length of 7mm cord. The summit of the peak we were climbing was reported to be "4th class", which means not too hard but exposed. I think the Notch on the Anne Circuit is 4th class. A confident climber generally would have no problem with a short bit of 4th class rock. I wore my leather boots on that weeklong trip and only took the cord as a backup, just in case. I assumed it's only use would be to plump up my pillow.

When we got to the summit we found that the final part was significantly more difficult than advertised. Although short, it was very insecure, and a slip would result in serious injury or worse. So what to do?

I walked all the way around to the far side of the summit and managed to anchor one end of the 7mm cord by tying it into a few rocks that I'd wedged into cracks. Then I weighted the rope and tossed the other end all the way over the summit area. I tied the other end into my wife, somehow, with some sort of knot. I tied at least one foot loop as high as I could on the cord draped over the summit. Then I partly climbed, partly bat-manned up the rope to the top. Once on top I tied a loop in the middle of the rope around a summit protrusion to use as an anchor and connected that to me (somehow, with some knot). I made more foot loops in another part of the cord and lowered those down. Then I pulled up what was left of the end that my wife was tied to. There wasn't much rope left. The 30m I brought was almost exactly what we needed.

Then, with a hip belay, I tensioned the rope mightily as she used the foot loops and what holds were on the rock to climb up to me. And then we reversed the whole thing, with me basically lowering her via hip belay.

That 30m of cord weighed 0.9kg if I recall correctly. Well worth it. We found out later that a number of more talented climbers were foiled by the lies in the guidebook. In fact, we discovered that the guidebook author himself had been to the base of the summit multiple times but never to the top.


Anyway, long story, but the point is I made up some knot to tie my wife (and myself) in. Maybe I used figure eights and went through the machinations of adjusting it around each or our waists. But I kind of remember doing something else, something just sort of concocted. I'm sure it included multiple loops around my wife's waist. Given the number of bowlines that exist it seems not too improbable that I tied one by accident.

[north-north-west]

Bowlines are good for making a secure loop on the rope, usually at the end. When hauling or lowering a pack the bowline goes through both shoulder straps, spreading the load. My tent guys are tied to the tent with bowlines, never failed. Most crevasse rescues do not need a bowline-type knot. I tie into my rock climbing harness with a figure eight knot. If I had to give a lot of support to a person and only had a rope I'd make a triple bowline, with loops for each leg and the waist or chest. With a loop of tape I can make a swami seat, which I climbed on for many years. While perhaps not used as much as was the case, bowlines and other knots should be known to bushwalkers and climbers.

I've always used a bowline to connect to the pack when pack-hauling, either directly or to attach the line to a crab.
Easy to tie, holds itself closed under weight, easy to undo when the weight is off.
Plus, thanks to practise for underwater recovery, I can tie them with my eyes closed whilst wearing thick gloves.

[Lophophaps]

Orion, while perhaps unconventional, you have illustrated how to make do with what a trip throws at the walker. There's a bowline that has several loops around the waist, and it still hurts when falling, which is why I like the triple bowline. Another way is to make two loops for the legs and have a free end of about a metre, which goes around the waist of the haulee.

NNW, I can do a lot of knots in the dark, but gloves and dark makes it harder. I have not seen scuba gear on Tassie walks.

[north-north-west]

NNW, I can do a lot of knots in the dark, but gloves and dark makes it harder. I have not seen scuba gear on Tassie walks.

If you were down here today you probably would.

[Lophophaps]

If you were down here today you probably would.

Do you think I'm crazy? On second thoughts, don't answer that. Walking in the rain is not much fun anywhere. Maybe covered walkways on major tracks should be built, along with improvement. Stage one is Three Capes, now for the roof and walls. This would be a good place to see if the hauling methods work. The photo shows a typical bushwalk for this area.

Totem Pole.jpg (90.09 KiB) Viewed 18404 times

[Orion]

There's a bowline that has several loops around the waist, and it still hurts when falling, which is why I like the triple bowline.

I think that's called a "bowline on a coil", or for fun a "boil on a colon".

I learned that very briefly a long time ago as a mountaineering trick but I could never remember it. I think you have to practice most knots or else you forget how to do them.

[Lophophaps]

There's a lot of knots that have several names. This is the bowline with two loops.
https://offgridsurvival.com/double-loop-bowline-2/
No boils in sight.

NNW's comments abot scuba gear are probably due to this
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-11/h ... ll/9750032
Quite wet.

[Orion]

There's a lot of knots that have several names. This is the bowline with two loops.
https://offgridsurvival.com/double-loop-bowline-2/
No boils in sight.

I was thinking of the one that wrapped around someone's waist multiple times, as a way to increase surface area, before the knot. The one you linked has an analog in the figure 8 knot that some people use to equalize anchors of two or three pieces, in lieu of slings:

NNW's comments abot scuba gear are probably due to this
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-11/h ... ll/9750032
Quite wet.

I hope my favorite 9/11 wasn't damaged!