Risk Management on a Club Bushwalk

[Bush Walker]

The biggest risks on a bushwalk are having a mismatch between the leader's skill level, the participant's past experience and the difficulty of the walk.

Few Clubs have a formal structure to match the difficulty of the walk with the skills of the leader. Often this "approval" is an ad hoc process which involves the Club's Walks Secretary, but without a formal structure it can fail. Matching the experience of the participants with the difficulty of the walk is usually much better handled. Usually Club walks are coded according to difficulty, duration, and terrain so in theory the participants should self-select for the walks and there should be no problem.

One way this problem can be overcome is for all walks to logged on the walkers profile, along with the name of the leader, so that checks can be made.

I would be very interested to hear how your Club handles the risk of a mismatch?

I have placed a few more thoughts on my blog http://www.bushwalkingskills.com/2010/09/risk-management-on-bushwalk.html

[zac150]

B_W

I should start by saying that am not involved in a walking club however as an avid bushwalker I quite often drag friends into the wilderness for an adventure.

You say

The biggest risks on a bushwalk are having a mismatch between the leader's skill level, the participant's past experience and the difficulty of the walk.

I would tend to agree with this statement. I should add I have not read your hyper link so some of this may be covered there.

I think the first step a club should take is to ensure the leaders have the requisite skills and where possible have pre walked the difficult sections of the walk. My mother who is also an avid walker was involved in a medium graded 6 hour walk with a local group which turned into a 12 hour marathon when the leader got the group lost, despite one or two in the group mentioning they were on the wrong track.

So the first step I would look at in any risk strategy would be the training of the leaders and the leaders ability to lead specific grades of walk.

This would then reduce the risk on walks to fitness, therefore I would grade each walk the club does on the expected training needed to complete a walk and let members know i.e if you are planning on overnight hike in a hilly section of Kosciouszko you might recommend a series of day walks before the event along with some walking & stair climbing at home. I know most clubs have a grading system already but telling someone a walk is grade 5 or moderate is less imposing than saying you will be expected to commit to two day walks plus 6 hour of independent training during the week for 4 weeks leading up to the walk.

Yes you would still need to have some form of acceptance system so that people who did not prepare for walks could be kept of the walk if necessary.

Cheers

Zac

[Bush Walker]

I agree with your comments. I think that training for a walk is an important component of risk management and I have on many occasions organized training sessions as a lead up to a major walk. This also gives the leader a good feel for fitness levels and ability to choose appropriate gear and allows cancellation of the walk if needed or perhaps non-acceptance of an individual walker

[Son of a Beach]

Note: Some posts have been split off to a new Gas Stoves - Compare Other Fuels, and Improvements in Design topic.

[flyfisher]

It's very fortunate that a group of us on the forum have walked together a number of times on overnighters and up to 4 days as well as day walks and we are just a bunch that have come together and walk, with no appointed leader, and we all get along well and to date have no mishaps, only good times.
Our walks are fairly spontaneous, but as departure date gets close, many pm's are flying round organising travel arrangements and meeting places etc.
In some ways I guess this is like a club walk but without the rigid format and rules etc. Don't think it gets much better.
ff

[ILUVSWTAS]

Agree with that FF!!
I have met many friends through this forum and we walk together almost every weekend.

[Bush Walker]

Note: Some posts have been split off to a new Gas Stoves - Compare Other Fuels, and Improvements in Design topic.

Thanks

[Bush Walker]

It's very fortunate that a group of us on the forum have walked together a number of times on overnighters and up to 4 days as well as day walks and we are just a bunch that have come together and walk, with no appointed leader, and we all get along well and to date have no mishaps, only good times.
Our walks are fairly spontaneous, but as departure date gets close, many pm's are flying round organising travel arrangements and meeting places etc.
In some ways I guess this is like a club walk but without the rigid format and rules etc. Don't think it gets much better.
ff

Guess you have been lucky to find true bushwalking "peers" which I assume means that everyone in your "group" is equivalent in fitness and experience? Have you had people drop out from your group - self-opt-out?

[flyfisher]

Guess you have been lucky to find true bushwalking "peers" which I assume means that everyone in your "group" is equivalent in fitness and experience? Have you had people drop out from your group - self-opt-out?

No, but not every one of us go on every trip. Recently had 9 of us on a Walls trip but usually 4 or more.Just that with 10 in the group we can normally get a good group together. Last effort we had 6. We haven't had any drop from the group at all.
The ages range from 25 to 64 so there is obviously a disparity in fitness levels but we are not in a race so we manage quite well and enjoy.
ff

[Bush Walker]

Guess you have been lucky to find true bushwalking "peers" which I assume means that everyone in your "group" is equivalent in fitness and experience? Have you had people drop out from your group - self-opt-out?

No, but not every one of us go on every trip. Recently had 9 of us on a Walls trip but usually 4 or more.Just that with 10 in the group we can normally get a good group together. Last effort we had 6. We haven't had any drop from the group at all.
The ages range from 25 to 64 so there is obviously a disparity in fitness levels but we are not in a race so we manage quite well and enjoy.
ff

Well most of the Club walks I have been on have the fittest a the front, often with the leader , and the slowest at the back. Without a consensus to keep in sight front-to-back this can lead to highly undesirable for group enjoyment and even dangerous situations.

[Son of a Beach]

I've found that when walking with groups such as the one flyfisher is talking about, it's more about attitude that ability. I've walked with that particular group a couple of times, as well as other groups that also have a very wide range of fitness and abilities. So long as the participants accept responsibility for themselves when walking, but still do their best to consider other members of the group, it works very well.

Like I said, its all about the attitude. If the people want to walk together, they need to make some effort to get along with each other, and that includes getting along at the same pace as the slower members of the group.

[flyfisher]

Well most of the Club walks I have been on have the fittest a the front, often with the leader , and the slowest at the back. Without a consensus to keep in sight front-to-back this can lead to highly undesirable for group enjoyment and even dangerous situations.[/quote]

Our group are quite aware of who's who in the fitness stakes and tend to almost go in reverse order to that unless the going is very tough such as soft snow when in snow shoes . Then a couple of fittest will often lead but not usual to have weakest at rear, and we always stay together and rest by consensus.This has worked well for us on the 3 years worth of walks thatwe have done, which would number well over 20.

FF

[sthughes]

Well most of the Club walks I have been on have the fittest a the front, often with the leader , and the slowest at the back. Without a consensus to keep in sight front-to-back this can lead to highly undesirable for group enjoyment and even dangerous situations.

Yeah well that seems kinda crazy, I always think a strong walker that is doing it easy should be at the back, so the chance of leaving anyone behind is mininised. Then put someone who is experienced, though not necessarily (and preferably not) fast at the front. (but then if its deep snow the fittest go first to break a path, and the slower walkers have no problems keeping up anyway due to the easier conditions at the back).
I guess our little group (with Flyfisher) is lucky as our "least speedy" walkers are also the most experienced, so there are no problems putting them up front, combine that with a group who can happily walk at the slowest persons pace and all works well.
It's all about personalities, there is no need for rigid rules and ratings etc. if you have bunch of people who will go with the flow and care as much for each other as for themselves. But having a macho self centered leader/group and a participant out of their depth is a recepie for problems.

P.S. Whoops FF has said it now but oh well!

[sthughes]

Relating to the original post - thats just a scary concept to me. At that rate we'll need to do a risk management plan, feasibility study and an emergency management plan and submit them to Parks for approval (no doubt along with the processing fees) before we leave home

Edit: Having said that I wouldn't embark on a particularly strenuous walk with a stranger anyway. No matter what they have done, can do or another leader says, there could still be a personality clash and that's the last thing anyone needs on an extended walk. So I'd say just have a rule of having walked with the group before on an easier walk. Then let the leader/group decide.

[Nuts]

Ive been involved with a couple of clubs. i find that the rules and regs were just so stifling. Probably necessary these days, or at least thats what people keep telling me I guess when a group is open to anyone to join it leaves room for error, numpty factor..

Thats what i found pretty refreshing when the (wayward ) strollers let me go on one of their walks, just seemed like a relaxed bunch of levelheaded people out enjoying themselves and each others company! As it should be! Perhaps unique? I do hope that nothing happens to change it for them though... something rare these days.

[Joe]

I have been on quite a few of the leaderless walks with the forum member groups. I don't function well in groups where people storm off in a pissing competition to see who can carry their pack up the mountain the fastest. I'm young(ish) and fit(ish) but enjoy smelling the roses. However the walks I have done with the group have always been responsible, safe and done in a way that everyone can be happy.
I think making everyone responsible for themselves and being aware of each of the other members in the group is a far better approach than giving that responsibility to a single (often self apponted expert) leader.

Also I mainly walk alone which probably opens another can of worms for risk management...

[Bush Walker]

I think making everyone responsible for themselves and being aware of each of the other members in the group is a far better approach than giving that responsibility to a single (often self apponted expert) leader.

Would have to agree!

[davidmorr]

One way this problem can be overcome is for all walks to logged on the walkers profile, along with the name of the leader, so that checks can be made.

Can't help thinking this is a level of bureaucracy that many of us go bush to escape from.

I would be very interested to hear how your Club handles the risk of a mismatch?

1. Objective grading system - factual measures such as description of terrain, length in km and total of all climbs. Subjective measures (easy, medium, hard) are meaningless.
2. The risk following from a mismatch depends on the walk. A mismatch on a five day wilderness backpack is of much greater concern than a two hour twilight walk. On anything other than a straightforward low-level day walk, the leader will want a second opinion from someone who has walked with the person. In other words, first hand observation of the person's capabilities. For some particularly challenging trips, the leader may also refuse participation if they don't know the person personally.
3. On all trips, no-one is ever left behind. If there is a problem, the group moves at the pace of the slowest walker. If it is a mismatch, the person is advised to try easier trips to build up their fitness/skills/experience.

[davidmorr]

In some ways I guess this is like a club walk but without the rigid format and rules etc. Don't think it gets much better.

I wish you guys would stop generalising about clubs and using emotive words ("rigid format and rules") in your generalisations. There are clubs that work well, and clubs that don't work well. There are also private groups that work well, and private groups that don't. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.

And also note that there are few people here bagging private groups, but there are a lot bagging clubs. I think that says something about them more than about the clubs.

The major difference I see between your arrangements and my club's arrangements is that many trips have the date written down a few months in advance so that people can plan work and other commitments around them. This means that they are able to go on the trip whereas they may not be able to go on a short-notice trip due to other commitments.

[walkinTas]

I have walked with clubs. I have walked with non-club groups. I have walked with at least one forum member. I have walked with friends and family. I have walked alone.

Walking with company has a few benefits. You might share some of the load, you have the support of others if you need it, you can have a conversation (sometimes good), if you walk with people with local knowledge of the area then you learn more and see more and miss less, you might go to places that you wouldn't go alone - because of risk or lack of knowledge.

However, I like to do my own thing at my own pace. I like to go when I'm ready, arrive when I want too and get back when I feel like it. I won't be hurried and don't like to be harassed when I walk. So, despite the inherent risk I often choose to walk alone. Doesn't mean I don't have arguments - just means I'm guaranteed to win!

[corvus]

In some ways I guess this is like a club walk but without the rigid format and rules etc. Don't think it gets much better.

I wish you guys would stop generalising about clubs and using emotive words ("rigid format and rules") in your generalisations. There are clubs that work well, and clubs that don't work well. There are also private groups that work well, and private groups that don't. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.

And also note that there are few people here bagging private groups, but there are a lot bagging clubs. I think that says something about them more than about the clubs.

The major difference I see between your arrangements and my club's arrangements is that many trips have the date written down a few months in advance so that people can plan work and other commitments around them. This means that they are able to go on the trip whereas they may not be able to go on a short-notice trip due to other commitments.

davidmorr,
I dont think anyone is as you say "bagging" clubs or private groups we just tend to express our opinions on this forum without fear or favour whilst adhering to the forum rules to be" polite and friendly".
I agree that Clubs really work for some however I am of the belief that all Clubs do have rules and regulations some of which are strict and rigid (for good reason in todays litigious society )and that is why some choose not to join.
As for private groups that don't work well they will just not evolve for the reason that no one would want to a part of them , our small flexible group the BWT Strollers works well because it is just that, small and flexible and we do actually forward plan our walks ,perhaps not months in advance but with enough time to suit most if not all of the group which incidentally is spread from Hobart to Penguin.
corvus

[ILUVSWTAS]

You CAN choose who to walk with within a club (once you've met the right people) and also avoid those who arent likeminded or follow strict protocol.

[Son of a Beach]

In some ways I guess this is like a club walk but without the rigid format and rules etc. Don't think it gets much better.

I wish you guys would stop generalising about clubs and using emotive words ("rigid format and rules") in your generalisations. There are clubs that work well, and clubs that don't work well. There are also private groups that work well, and private groups that don't. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.

And also note that there are few people here bagging private groups, but there are a lot bagging clubs. I think that says something about them more than about the clubs.

The major difference I see between your arrangements and my club's arrangements is that many trips have the date written down a few months in advance so that people can plan work and other commitments around them. This means that they are able to go on the trip whereas they may not be able to go on a short-notice trip due to other commitments.

I don't think that "without the rigid format and rules" is a terribly emotive phrase, but I guess it's a matter of personal perspective. Off the top of my head, I guess somebody could have merely said "without the format and rules", but that doesn't quite get the point across, because even a casual group has some unwritten, and even unspoken format and rules. Perhaps "without the official written format and rules that must be adhered to" would do, but it's a bit verbose and probably not much less emotive. But now I'm getting pedantic.

On a more serious note, David, your club does sound good. Can you let us know which club it is?

[sthughes]

But now I'm getting pedantic.

Maybe just a little
You should wear a bright blue beret Nik.

[flyfisher]

To Bush_walker and David, my comments were definitely not meant to offend in any way and if this is the case then please accept my appologies. My intention was/is to point out the difference between the club scene and a different scenario that a bunch of us have been lucky enough to find ourselves in. Our group just sort of evolved from a couple of early strolls to Lees paddocks and Bastion cascades.We have all had a fair bit of experience (except 1 overseas student who has learnt heaps in a short time) and are all confident enough to walk solo if necessary, but prefer company.
I don't think too many of us were known to one another before the forum and we come from north west, north and south.
Hope this better explains where I/we are coming from.
John Flyfisher

[Beeper]

I use to lead (many) walks for the HWC. Being a leader, I often found there was a problem in trying to vet people's experience and their ability to do a walk.

On one occassion, I made an error of judgement, and one stubborn old fool made an overnight trip an almost disaster, in particular to himself (hypothermia).

After that, I only led a few more trips and eventually left the club.

The reponsibility of personal liability, duty of care etc made it too much for me to be bothered with.

[Bush Walker]

I use to lead (many) walks for the HWC. Being a leader, I often found there was a problem in trying to vet people's experience and their ability to do a walk.

On one occassion, I made an error of judgement, and one stubborn old fool made an overnight trip an almost disaster, in particular to himself (hypothermia).
After that, I only led a few more trips and eventually left the club.
The reponsibility of personal liability, duty of care etc made it too much for me to be bothered with.

I too have stopped leading walks after about 100, as I always found it stressful trying to sort out those who were not capable without offending anyone. This is especially difficult when walk clubs have no formal vetting process.

[corvus]

I use to lead (many) walks for the HWC. Being a leader, I often found there was a problem in trying to vet people's experience and their ability to do a walk.

On one occassion, I made an error of judgement, and one stubborn old fool made an overnight trip an almost disaster, in particular to himself (hypothermia).
After that, I only led a few more trips and eventually left the club.
The reponsibility of personal liability, duty of care etc made it too much for me to be bothered with.

I too have stopped leading walks after about 100, as I always found it stressful trying to sort out those who were not capable without offending anyone. This is especially difficult when walk clubs have no formal vetting process.

Hence our reason for our informal friendly Strollers group

[Joe]

I use to lead (many) walks for the HWC. Being a leader, I often found there was a problem in trying to vet people's experience and their ability to do a walk.

On one occassion, I made an error of judgement, and one stubborn old fool made an overnight trip an almost disaster, in particular to himself (hypothermia).
After that, I only led a few more trips and eventually left the club.
The reponsibility of personal liability, duty of care etc made it too much for me to be bothered with.

I too have stopped leading walks after about 100, as I always found it stressful trying to sort out those who were not capable without offending anyone. This is especially difficult when walk clubs have no formal vetting process.

Hence our reason for our informal friendly Strollers group

I think they have got the message Gezza

[davidmorr]

I agree that Clubs really work for some however I am of the belief that all Clubs do have rules and regulations some of which are strict and rigid (for good reason in todays litigious society )and that is why some choose not to join.

Yes, there are rules, for good reason as you say. But don't get it out of proportion. The rules don't have to be onerous or time-consuming.

And don't assume that because your walks are leaderless that you avoid any risk of litigation. Anyone can sue anyone over anything - some minor incident that causes an injury to someone, for example. It may be groundless, but the cost of defending that action can be of the order of tens of thousands of dollars.