Poo decomposion

[ILUVSWTAS]

So it seems that while most walkers bury their poo (or attempt to) most climbers build a cairn over it. Now I have been wondering if this is done off-track, somewhere someone would never see it, isnt a poo going to decompose faster like this rather than buried in the ground??

Is the "bury your buisness" method purely for "etiquette" reasons only??

[walkinTas]

Another poo topic. I thought these were banned. No, that was just wishful thinking.

Reason given include: (not saying these are all valid)

1. mixing it with soil to help decomposition
2. burying discourage animals and flies
3. bacteria in the soil will break down nasties before they get into waterways.
4. helps avoid other human contact - gastroenteritis (diarrhea and vomiting) are caused by exposed human faecal waste.
5. aesthetic - who wants to look at poo and paper.
6. bury deeply limits the smell.
7. poo and paper do not breakdown very quickly alpine areas, bury deeply so not found. (actually carry out is better than bury here).

I'm sure there are others. But as to which is best, well that could be very interesting. I wonder if there is any research.

[Nuts]

Climbers are generally lazier than walkers?

[ILUVSWTAS]

Climbers are generally lazier than walkers?

In my limited experience, yes very true. Is that why they do this though???

[photohiker]

Is the "bury your buisness" method purely for "etiquette" reasons only??

I think the critical difference is that in some places, there is very little soil, so burying it isn't so much of an option.

I also heard from someone (a mountaineer), that popular climbs are sometimes so overused that there is basically a turd under every moveable rock. LOL

[Nuts]

Beats me, those (few) ive known dont go far from the car Maybe its an environmental thing, lots of rock around

[tasadam]

I just got back from two days in some off-track stuff, and I was somewhat aware of the flies. Having discovered my fair share of other peoples inappropriateness, I couldn't help but think whether these flies have discovered the same.
Have you ever noticed how quick the flies are on the scene when doing the deed?
And for that matter, how often you find tissues etc on the sides of popular tracks.

So, if things are not being buried appropriately, what diseases are these flies capable of spreading?
There's already a reported problem of Gastro on the Overland track. But how bad could it get?

As for the climbers, I don't know about you but with the right diet, you should need one a day, and if I was going climbing I think I'd be preparing properly so as to take a dump before heading up some cliff.
There's always the option of carry-out, which I have done before. You'd need a good storage system for climbing though, and don't get it confused with your chalk bag.

[tastrax]

Search the web for Kerry Bridle - she did some research into this matter in Tassie.

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s665492.htm
http://www.geog.utas.edu.au/faecalmatters/

[walkinTas]

Thanks. I was looking for that research.

There was at least one published paper wasn't there?

It’s been fantastic, it really has. People are endlessly fascinated by poo.

So it would seem.

[Greenie]

So Everest is basically one big pile of poo?

[tasadam]

So Everest is basically one big pile of poo?

Interesting thought... What do people "do" on Everest? Surely can't dig a hole in the ice...

[walkinTas]

I would think they carry out. It is more how do they do it? Exposing softer tissue to the extreme cold must be fraught with danger.

[ILUVSWTAS]

I would think they carry out. It is more how do they do it? Exposing softer tissue to the extreme cold must be fraught with danger.

LOL! Very good point. I believe my old Expedition teacher who climbed it when not many had, told us they all crapped in bags.

[anne3]

Recently stepped on a human land mine, very off putting. Someone had done their business at a popular look out spot at Vallejo Ganther Hut at Macalister Springs.....new rule - bury it 100meters from any walking track!! Had pink crocs on at the time ewwwwww

[RodLawlor]

Abstract is here

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jenvman.2004.08.004

The important part is included here

4.1. Implications for management
A key question in deciding the implications for manage- ment of our decay data is the social and environmental acceptability of different periods of persistence of human waste disposal products in the soil. Social acceptability relates to the probability of excavating the evidence of a past faecal burial event, when undertaking preparations for a new event. This probability can be high in some well-used places (von Platen, 2002; authors unpublished data). Environmental acceptability relates to variation from the natural condition of the soil, which would obviously be considerable where deposits remain intact over several years. In the western alpine and high altitude moorland environments decay is extremely slow. In our judgement it is both socially and environmentally undesirable to continue to advise people to bury their wastes in these environments. This would not be a major imposition on walkers, as locations in these environ- ments are usually in close proximity to forest or scrub vegetation, which provide more privacy than buttongrass moorland and alpine vegetation.
If anything is to be carried out, tampons are an appropriate target. Current MIB prescriptions request that tampons are carried out and not buried in the ground. As this is a simple and broad-ranging message with little public health risk to the walker, we suggest that the message is retained, despite the relatively successful decay of tampons, albeit after 2 years at some of the sites.
Walkers may place their wastes under rocks in alpine areas because they are reluctant to damage alpine vegetationby digging. We hope that the results of this research and those from our vegetation study (Bridle and Kirkpatrick, 2003) will convince them that it is less environmentally harmful to bury their waste than to leave it exposed.
Soil depth proved sufficient in parts of all our sites to enable burial of waste at 15 cm, as is suggested by the code. However, obstructions such as roots, rocks or very hard clay soil made it difficult to dig a hole 15 cm deep at some sites. Digging to that depth was impossible to severely challen- ging at most sites using plastic trowels of the kind sold in many outdoor stores. There is a need for prescriptions in the MIB guidelines on the strength and quality of trowels. Burial at 5 cm does present some relatively low chance of excavation by animals, compared to 15 cm, so the 15 cm recommendation in the code should stand.
Recent research which aimed to determine the impact of the addition of real faeces and urine on toilet paper decay, showed similar responses over a one year period to the results we have detailed above. Results from two extreme sites (coastal eucalypt and montane moorland) were consistent with the data presented in this paper (von Platen, 2002). While the presence of faeces may have allowed additional bacteria to survive in the environment, toilet paper decay was not significantly enhanced in a 6-month-period.
The above results suggest that the minimum impact bushwalking code should be amended to: (1) to recommend no disposal of faeces, toilet paper or tissues in treeless vegetation above 800m in western Tasmania; (2) to emphasise that placement of waste under rocks causes more environmental harm than disposal by burial, even in alpine environments; (3) to emphasise that strong metal trowels are necessary to excavate holes for defecation in most wild places. The significantly longer decomposition times for tampons compared to toilet paper supports the current policy of carrying out tampons.
Guidelines should also advise walkers to choose their toilet site carefully. Choose a well-drained soil in woody vegetation rather than a poorly drained soil or peat in alpine or moorland vegetation.
The index we derived for predicting the speed of decay of human waste disposal products requires testing outside Tasmania, to determine its potential universality.


An analysis of the breakdown of paper products (toilet paper, tissues and tampons) in natural environments, Tasmania, Australia
Kerry L. Bridle*, J.B. Kirkpatrick
Journal of Environmental Management 74 (2005) 21–30

[walkinTas]

placement of waste under rocks causes more environmental harm than disposal by burial, even in alpine environments

Answers ILuv's question. BW.com has visited bush toilets before.

Apparently its not just alpine areas, toilet paper doesn't decompose well in deserts either. Plenty of sites recommend either carrying out used toilet paper, or burning used toilet paper or not using any.

More reading:

• Australian Alpine Best Practice - Human Waste Management Workshop
• 2005 Human Waste Management in KNP includes a discussion on carry-out policies.

Time to start seriously considering carry out options. At least for all alpine areas and "treeless vegetation above 800m" and deserts and any area with cold or very wet soils and any place were there isn't enough soil for burying and for places where you can't get more that 100m from a stream or lake and for any area where lots of people visit and there are already to many cat holes and always for tampons and wipes and probably for toilet paper.

• Wag Bags
• Poo Pot Brochure
• Restop 2
• Gotta-go Toilet
• Cleanwaste Products
• Wastecase
• Big Wall
• Travel John Solid Waste Collection

[north-north-west]

Recently stepped on a human land mine, very off putting. Someone had done their business at a popular look out spot at Vallejo Gantner Hut at Macallister Springs.....new rule - bury it 100meters from any walking track!! Had pink crocs on at the time ewwwwww

But there's a dunny there!!!! It's clearly signposted. There's just NO excuse for that.

[Amanda]

To the best of my knowlegde Tassie climbers bury their poo. Recently there was a minor uproar because some visiting BASE jumpers didn't bury some poo at the Tyndalls. Warning lots of photos but scroll down not far from the top and see the recipe for 'poo porridge' at the Tyndalls and the reasons for burying poo.

http://www.thesarvo.com/confluence/display/thesarvo/Tyndall+Range