Soda can stoves ?

[Charlievee]

Anybody like these lightweight wonders ? I made one the other night and it burns very well. I wouldn't use it on a long walk but for a weekender it would be fine. I'm going to fashion a pot stand out of some light gal mesh. I'll post final weights. Regards, CV

[Tony]

Hi Charlie,

Anybody like these lightweight wonders ? I made one the other night and it burns very well. I wouldn't use it on a long walk but for a weekender it would be fine. I'm going to fashion a pot stand out of some light gal mesh. I'll post final weights. Regards, CV

I play around with MYOG alcohol stoves, while for the type of cooking that I do I prefer canister stoves, The soda can stoves are great performers and can match the Trangia's for performance while leaving the Trangia way behind for weight. My lightest stove/pot stand weighs in at 4.2 grams.

Here is a link to one of my alcohol stove designs Volcano stove this little stove out performs the Trangia for efficiency.

Tony

[Charlievee]

Hey Tony - wow ! That's light ! I've just finished mine - just did a trial boil and made tea ! Performance is very good but I've made a stove heat reflector and windshield out of some aluminum flashing. I doubt it will beat yours in weight. Still pretty light though. I feel the windshield is a must though, I had a very light wind on my front porch and it was blowing the flame around. Without it I think I'd still be waiting .... Regards, CV

P.S. - Just had a look at your volcano stove. Those Red Bull cans are even smaller and lighter than the pop cans eh ? Well done, thanks for sharing.

[Tony]

Hi Charlie,

Hey Tony - wow ! That's light ! I've just finished mine - just did a trial boil and made tea ! Performance is very good but I've made a stove heat reflector and windshield out of some aluminum flashing. I doubt it will beat yours in weight. Still pretty light though. I feel the windshield is a must though, I had a very light wind on my front porch and it was blowing the flame around. Without it I think I'd still be waiting .... Regards, CV

P.S. - Just had a look at your volcano stove. Those Red Bull cans are even smaller and lighter than the pop cans eh ? Well done, thanks for sharing.

Could you post a photo of your soda can stove, I and I am sure some others would like to see it.

You are right a windshield is a must but I am not sure about if heat reflectors are an advantage.

Tony

[ninjapuppet]

Those Red Bull cans are even smaller and lighter than the pop cans eh ? Well done, thanks for sharing.

I got no problems squeezing 2 soda cans together but ive got real issues getting the 2 red bull cans to fit together. one part always manages to crumple so i gave up.

how are you getting the 2 red bull cans to fit? or are you just using an open top setup?
you can always do a setup like this one with your redbull can but it wont pressurise. http://www.geartalkwithjasonklass.com/2007/09/tea-light-stove-upgrade.html

I also bought a few to compare to my home made ones and i seem to keep comming back to taking the whitebox stove along for its heavy duty construction.

[Tony]

Hi ninjapuppet,

I got no problems squeezing 2 soda cans together but ive got real issues getting the 2 red bull cans to fit together. one part always manages to crumple so i gave up.

how are you getting the 2 red bull cans to fit? or are you just using an open top setup?

I fit two cans together but with great difficulty, I ended up making a purpose built dolly to stretch the outer can, it has been designed to easily remove the can off the dolly. Getting the size right took a bit of trial and error as if the dolly is to big then the can splits. I also have special dollies to shape the volcano shape top, one of the advantages of having a lathe.

Tony

Red Bull dolly

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red Bull dolly parts

IMG_3094.JPG (45.89 KiB) Viewed 74514 times

[Charlievee]

Hey guys - as requested. Here's the photos. Weight of stove, deflector and shield weighs in at 67 grams. I thought of nixing the heat deflector, but heard they were a good idea for helping the stove "bloom" or have the alcohol vaporize sooner. Please excuse my mediocre photo skills. Regards, Charlie.

[Orion]

I have a trip in the planning stages that will be, for me at least, very physically demanding. Many days with a lot of miles and elevation change. I have to reduce the pack weight drastically. I'm thinking it has to go down by 3 to 4 kg. While I'm not an ultralight hiker at the moment I have fairly lightweight gear already. The obvious candidates for reduction are the pack itself and the shelter. But I'm scrutinizing everything for this particular outing.

And so my attention turns to the stove.

Right now I use a lightweight canister stove. What I'm curious to learn is if it's worth it, for my purposes, to replace it with one of the dozens of alcohol stove systems. I would like to be able to bring 12-15 500ml pots of water to a boil during this trip. I know from experience how much my canister system will weigh, starting and ending. But the various alcohol models are foreign to me.

I've used a mini Trangia in the past but it is rather heavy and seemed to eat up a fair amount of fuel. Recently I built two of the simpler alcohol stoves, the "penny" stove and the "supercat". I tested these under benign indoor conditions.

The Penny: I had trouble getting it to go as it seemed to require a fair amount of priming. And it's output was variable, diminishing over time. I could never get it to boil 500ml of water. It would get hot, but not boiling.

The Supercat worked better. It took about 18g of denatured ethanol to boil 500g of water. Under the conditions I tested it, that's 3 times as much fuel by weight as my canister stove used.

I'm open minded enough to realize that I probably haven't got the art or "zen" of alcohol stoves yet, but to be honest I'm not sure this is where I'm going to succeed in saving significant useful weight.

Can anyone convince me otherwise?

[ninjapuppet]

check out the caldera cone:
here are articles on it: http://www.traildesigns.com/articles.html

and here are some customer feedback with many links: http://www.traildesigns.com/quotes.html

Rand who makes these stoves reckons he tested hundreds of designs before settling for the current design. There are three types:
1) the traditional caldera
2) ULC caldera for small diameter tall pots
3) sidewinder caldera for short wide based pots.

And they come in either
1) titanium (ti Tri) for the ability to burn wood
2) aluminium, which is much more affordable.

The sidewidinder series cost me about $200 delivered including a pot.
I also have an MSR titan kettle, and ordered the traditional caldera for that, which was $15 cone + 5 for the storage caddy which doubles up as a cup.

I havnt gotten mine yet but there are reports that it uses 15ml to boil 500ml in kitchen conditions, so 15 meals x 15 mL = 225ml
I have a 250mL nalgene that can store 280mL and weighs 220g including the bottle. this is obviously lighter than my 230g gas canister weighing in at 365 grams and gives about 80 minutes of burn time. if you get a caldera, you got the option of burning wood incase you run out of fuel.

[ninjapuppet]

you normally wouldnt really want to burn wood in our Australian national parks, especially during fire danger season.
But if you were out in the middle of no where and unexpectedly ran out of fuel, its nice to know there's a backup without having to build a firepit.

Main reason that tipped the scales for me to get the sidewinder caldera was the ability to sit around it with a group of mates, each with their own caldera.
Then create a little controllable bonfire each, burn marsh mellows and dried squid while making up ghost stories to tell.

[Orion]

Thanks for the reply, ninja. The comparsion system includes a 110g canister which easily boils 12-15 500ml pots of water, with spare. In the field.

My canister stove (88g) + 110g of fuel (197g) results in a total weight of 285g (full), 175g (empty).

Alcohol stoves (burner/pot support) seem to be in the 10g to 40g range. Fuel bottles are 15-30g. So the difference in finishing (empty) weight will be on the order of 100g, perhaps more. Starting weight is probably more important and depends on actual fuel efficiency. 15ml (12g) of alcohol to boil 500g of water sounds good. Is it for real or just in a lab setting? The two stoves I've built and tested in the kitchen both failed miserably to live up the claims published by their inventors, nevermind performed well outdoors in the cold/wind.

What makes the caldera cone different?

[ninjapuppet]

I'm still waiting for it to arrive, but I guess The main idea from other posts is that its the most stable, most fuel efficient and most versatile alcohol cooking system around (burns wood).


With your fast moving type of trips, have a look at the MSR reactor. mine is 491 grams + gas. It is hands down the absolute fastest water boiling system around and the most efficient. i wouldnt use it for overnight trips, but for your 10 day trip, I would consider it. everything packs down perfectly into the pot, and the pot is high quality anodised aluminium.

from memory, it will boil 500ml in just over a minute in the kitchen, and will boil 1L in about 3 minutes (faster than any alcohol stove boiling 500ml)
It is much faster than my 2000W kitchen electric kettle.

I once used it on a hardcore trip where i powered through 40km a day for 5 days straight. we walked till night, slept, then walked again before the sun got up. having a hot meal so quick in those circumstances is much appreciated.

[Orion]

Ninja, the Reactor is heavier than what I have now. Speed of boil is not a priority for me. If it takes 5 minutes or 10 minutes that's quick enough. What I want at the end of of hard day is a stove that will reliably boil water without too much fuss. My canister stove does this fine, but if I can find a system that is just as good (or nearly so) AND saves some weight, I will use that instead.

I'll read up on the Caldera Cone and I'm curious to hear your reports of fuel use on actual trips.

[Charlievee]

Hey guys, did a walk at Lake Eildon last weekend and used an alcohol stove for cooking. It was a lightweight titanium stove. It's fuel capacity was small, took way too long to "bloom" and was very thirsty. When it ran out of fuel and I refilled the stove, it was quite a while before I could get cooking again. My buddy and his family had an MSR Simmerlite and had their meal underway and finished before I had even started cooking my main course. I vowed to go back to shellite for the very reasons ninjapuppet states. At the end of a good footslog a man needs nourishment and I don't want to wait till midnight for it. The alcohol stoves might be lighter, but I'll bear the extra weight on this one. Regards, CV.

[Orion]

Thanks for the field report, Charlievee, although I'm sorry to hear the result. I'm trying to eek out 100-150g of weight savings (end of the trip) with a lot less at the start. For that small increment in weight savings the reliability, performance, and convenience cannot suffer too much or else it's a switch that is penny wise and pound foolish. I was hoping to hear stories that encouraged a switch to an alcohol system.

Now could it be possible that your lack of experience with this particular type of fuel stove is to blame for your disappointment? Or was it the wrong tool for the type of cooking you had planned?

[Charlievee]

Good call Orion, I think titanium, although lightweight, is a poor choice for a stove body material. It is not very heat conductive which is what you need for fuel to "bloom". I brought the stove as I thought I could save weight with the titanium, and the fact that it had fold out legs, meaning a pot stand wasn't required. My homemade stove (pictured above) bloomed quickly and easily. I should have gone with that. Still, old habits die hard, and I'm a petrol stove fan (got my first one, an Optimus 80 at age 14) and I think, over the long haul, petrol wins out. The stove boils faster, you carry less fuel by weight and I'm willing to carry a tiny bit of extra weight for its benefits. I refuse to give up my lunchtime cuppa (except for the hottest days) and with the petrol stove lit ; I'm ready to cook straight away. Some people are ok with waiting for an alcohol stove ; I guess I'm a bit impatient ! Also, petrol stoves rule in colder temps. Alcohol req's prewarming. On a plus side, with alcohol, at least you're not burning fossil fuels. I should add that I'm pretty much a boil water/freezer bag/dehyd guy. I don't saute or baste or simmer. Just my opinion, YMMV. Regards, CV

[wellsy]

Interesting to hear of your experiences with alcohol (meths ) stoves Charlie. Like you I was a bit of a petrol stove fan but have always preferred to cook on a fire given the choice. I became aware of 'pepsi stoves' about 5 years ago when Paul Drury, from Springwood Bushwalkers, was telling me he taught his high school Duke of Edinburgh kids how to make their own stoves. I followed up his suggestion to go to the website 'Zen Stoves" and I've been hooked ever since. I used to teach my Year 3 Primary kids (8 and 9 year olds) how to make drink can stoves as a craft project, as well as making billies out of empty fruit or Milo cans. The kid's biggest hassle was fitting the top into the bottom without splitting the sides of the bottom or crumpling the top. It also involved lessons on safety and a note home to parents on how the stove was to be used. I've found the drink can stove to be a terrific lightweight emergency stove for weekend walks and often carry one on day walks with a small billy and mug. If you make a side burner (jet) model you can, with care, get away without a pot stand. You carefully balance your billy pot right on top of the stove. I make lightweight windshields by stapling together the middle section of two drink cans.
For long multi-day trips I prefer the MSR Whisperlite or Kovea gas stove as a backup to cooking over a fire. You can get the instructions for my version of a Zen sideburner by going to my website "Bushwalking in the Upper Blue Mountains" and clicking on "Links" in the left hand menu.

Regards,
Allan Wells

[ninjapuppet]

I just did a few (non scientific) trials with some alcohol stoves when i saw the winds pick up abit this morning outside.

My previous soda can of choice, was the whitebox stove. i found the flame stronger than any of my homemade stoves and generally very reliable.
However since comparing side by side in the wind this morning, my ideas have changed.

15ml alcohol
whitebox - could not achieve a boil
caldera - bubbles formed nearly boiled, but not quite boiling.

20ml alcohol
whitebox - very slight bubbles formed but no boil. flames died at 6.30 mins
caldera - rolling boil at 6.20 mins. flames died at 8.30 mins

25ml alcohol
whitebox - Just manages a rolling boil and flames die out at 7 minutes
caldera - rolling boil at 6.30 mins. flames died at 11 mins

RESULT ==> NOT MUCH SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, except slightly better efficiency from the caldera.

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test 2: waving a hair dryer at stove from 50cm away to simulate strong winds.
whitebox - flames occasinoally died and flared back up, but generally it was affected badly. boil times increased 20-50% even with windscreen
caldera -similar resuts as if there was no wind.

RESULT ==> WIND DOESNT AFFECT CALDERA, BUT SLOWS DOWN WHITEBOX. the windscreen in the whitebox kept shifting around abit too.
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test 3: alcohol in freezer for 3 hours, to simulate cold alcohol. (cant really simulate cold weather)
whitebox took a few more seconds to bloom (with priming). couldnt boil water with 40, 45 or 50 ml. took 5ml prime + 55ml to boil = 60 ml
caldera boiled with 25ml + 3 ml prime.

RESULT ==> COLD ALCOHOL DOUBLED WHITBOX FUEL USAGE, BUT ONLY SLIGHTLY INCREASED CALDERA FUEL USAGE.
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CONCLUSION

In good conditions
similar performance between the two.

In windy & cold weather
- I have concluded that the caldera set up beats the whitebox + windscreen + priming plate setup in adverse weather.
- I have on more than 1 occasion, knocked my dinner off the tall unstable cannister stove. This is possible with the whitebox, but unlikely with the caldera.
- since the caldera is so reliable to boil water with 20-30 mL in varying weather, i have faith in it to plan my hikes incorporating caldera without a massive amount of back up fuel.
with the white box, extra fuel must be taken if weather turns bad since fuel usage can easily double in the real world compared to kitchen tests.


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For anyone looking of a new stove set up: i would highly recommend you save up for the caldera cone side winder inferno with the NON COATED basic 1.3L pot. Everything fits into it as a neat package, you can burn wood as backup when running out of fuel, and it doesnt scape off like the nonstick version.

If you only boil water, then caldera keg is good too, its one of the most efficient / lightest boiling systems in the world, but you cant cook in it.

[Tony]

Hi ninjapuppet,

For anyone looking of a new stove set up: i would highly recommend you save up for the caldera cone side winder inferno with the NON COATED basic 1.3L pot. Everything fits into it as a neat package, you can burn wood as backup when running out of fuel, and it doesnt scape off like the nonstick version.

If you only boil water, then caldera keg is good too, its one of the most efficient / lightest boiling systems in the world, but you cant cook in it.

Thanks for your comprehensive report, my stove testing has also shown that the Caldera Cone wind shield is very good in windy conditions, The Caldera Cone stove system is very good if you just boil water but the problem with the Caldera Cone cooking system and most lightweight alcohol stoves is that it is very difficult to simmer with them, that is why I like my gas stoves.

Tony

[Orion]

ninjapuppet, how much water were you trying to boil? 1 liter?

[ninjapuppet]

sorry i should have mentioned this: 2 cups (500ml) as standard with all my boiling tests. Just chuck that into my bowl of instant noodles for 2 mins, or into a freeze dried pack for 10 mins and you have a meal.
I basically only use it for water boiling meals or simple things like frying an egg.
Tried to fry a steak and basically the bottom layer got burnt while its still very raw inside.

Theres a few fiddly ways to lower the burn rate such as adding water into the fuel and lifting the pot up abit higher but as Tony pointed out its still better to go gas if you want to get fancy with meals. I still use gas/liquid fuel if i want to grill fish or bake with the backpacker oven. but for everything else lightweight, its the caldera for me now.

[richie]

Speaking of DIY and the caldera cone, does anyone know where the stiff and springy aluminium sheet/flashing can be bought in Australia? I looked at Bunnings and the flashing seems soft and malleable compared to descriptions of the US stuff.

[ninjapuppet]

ive been to a few Bunnings and noticed that one of them only had the one you talked about, but at another location, they had many many more types, similar to the caldera cone ones. So just gotta keep in mind that one branch may stock an item which another branch may not.

There is also another independent hardware store near my place that stocks it, but these family run type of shops are now becoming rare to find.

[richie]

Yeah, the Bunnings where I live has pushed everything else out of business so now you have to wander for hours to find what you want (or if they have it) and then wait even longer for someone to come and give you a hand. Thanks for the tip though, I'll check a few other places. Is the stuff you've seen in a roll in the flashing section, or elsewhere?

[Tony]

Hi richie,

Speaking of DIY and the caldera cone, does anyone know where the stiff and springy aluminium sheet/flashing can be bought in Australia? I looked at Bunnings and the flashing seems soft and malleable compared to descriptions of the US stuff.

I went looking for some thin hard aluminium a couple of years ago and I was unable to track some down in Australia, some companies would make a special order but I had to order a min volume and it was many $k's worth.

I have contacted Rand at Trail designs and at the time he said that he would make a custom cone to my specs.

Tony

[ninjapuppet]

... Is the stuff you've seen in a roll in the flashing section, or elsewhere?

Yeh, i found it in the flashing section. sorry i forgot to mention that out of 4 Bunnings i checked out, only this particular one had it.

and also the rolls they came in were prohibitively expensive. (we are talking about several hundred bucks). The guys at Bunnings werent prepared to cut me a small 2m piece, so I think I ended up buying some from ebay and some from a scrap metal supplier in sydney.

[crockle]

..The Caldera Cone stove system is very good if you just boil water but the problem with the Caldera Cone cooking system and most lightweight alcohol stoves is that it is very difficult to simmer with them, that is why I like my gas stoves.

Tony (+ anyone else) - have you looked at or used the Packafeather stoves ?

packafeatherstove1.jpg (8.79 KiB) Viewed 74097 times

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Although an alcohol stove, they claim to have flame adjustment that works efficiently.
I've nearly ordered one a couple of times but something always happened and I lost concentration or moved on..

http://www.packafeather.com/stove.html

[ninjapuppet]

ok, we all know there are compromises with going lightweight, but those stands look pretty flimsy to me.
Nevertheless, they are some pretty impressive claims that stove makes.

Can you let us know how it goes in the real world?


EDIT:
they claim: Pot stand safely supports over 20 pounds.

hmmmmmmm

[alliecat]

I have both the featherfire shown above and the smaller XL model

I love 'em. They are really light, burn well, are controllable, and are just really well designed and made. They really are little works of art actually.

I've had 1.5L of water on the stove shown above - it took a while to boil, but the pot stands held it without any difficulty at all. It's an impressively solid little unit.

With the flame adjustment, the original featherfire stove works really well. The XL is a bit trickier because the base of the outer shell of the stove is open rather than enclosed. So with the XL, you have to make sure the bottom of the stove if pressed snugly into the ground to make a good seal, otherwise you can't restrict the air intake with the adjustable band. But as long as you are aware of that, the XL works well too.

Cheers,
Alliecat

[michael_p]

Since this is a thread about DIY alcohol stoves I have a general question.

What are people using to glue the two halves of the stove together?