details on zpacks even cuben rainshell

[wayno]

http://hikelighter.com/2013/08/07/water ... echnology/

[forest]

Thats really interesting Wayno. I've seen the zpacks rain gear but it has never been breathable enough.......but now
One of these would make a great trail running shell with pit zips and the super light weight.

[Giddy_up]

Good find wayno, it looks like this new event/Cuban is going mainstream with Easton using it in their tents. This might make the pricing on the products made with it more palatable.

This link does not give the specs on the fabrics though.

http://eastonoutfitters.com/wp-content/ ... lowres.pdf


"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards"

[wayno]

dunno about running in one of those jackets they look like they are cut like a tent pretty baggy and would flap around and jump up and down on a run...

[forest]

dunno about running in one of those jackets they look like they are cut like a tent pretty baggy and would flap around and jump up and down on a run...

Race / hydration vest soon stops the giggles. Besides I have bouncy bits too.........

[Supertramp]

I was the one who posted this in the (Lightweight rain, snow jackets) thread a few days ago.
As I said in that thread, this stuff sounds very promising

[Joomy]

I am far from convinced:

1) MTVR ratings mean next to nothing. Most MVTR tests don't take into account air permeability and you end up with stupid results like fleeces being less breathable than monolithic membranes.

2) This doesn't sound like it's a 3-layer fabric of the sort that we are all used to, i.e. a waterproof membrane sandwiched between two durable fabric layers. According to that article this Cuben fibre stuff has the dyneema layer in the middle and the eVent membranes on the outside. So your membranes are being subjected to all the wear and tear and the Dyneema is simply providing the strength with no woven fabrics to provide any abrasion resistance.

Finally, I am very skeptical of the entire notion of using air-permeable eVent with cuben fibre, since cuben fibre uses a monolithic membrane to hold the dyneema fibres together. Unless they have figured out a way to laminate the dyneema directly to the ePTFE (or similar) layer you will inevitably have a monolithic layer acting as a bottle neck which defeats the purpose of using eVent.

[wayno]

the ratings for moisture permeability come out of laboratories in conditions that may seldom be achieved in the real world...
in the real world you can still end up with zero air permeability on the most moisture permeable fabrics,, dwr has to keep working well.
moisture permeability is affected by temperature and humidity and some of the ratings they get can be as a result of subjecting the material to wind, so no wind and you won't achieve the rating...
i've used event in circumstances where there was no sign of moisture permeability.
you're right about cuben being monolithic so what have they done to it? punched holes all over the fabric?

[Joomy]

the ratings for moisture permeability come out of laboratories in conditions that may seldom be achieved in the real world...
in the real world you can still end up with zero air permeability on the most moisture permeable fabrics,, dwr has to keep working well.
moisture permeability is affected by temperature and humidity and some of the ratings they get can be as a result of subjecting the material to wind, so no wind and you won't achieve the rating...

All good points, and further to my advice that MVTR ratings of any sort should be basically ignored. Much better off using common sense and logic and (ancedotal) evidence (i.e. from people who've used it).

i've used event in circumstances where there was no sign of moisture permeability.

I'm not sure eVent would ever transmit enough air for you to actually feel it. I think you'd feel more like a slightly chilled feeling in high wind.

[wayno]

i wouldnt totally ignore MVTR ratings, when you have similarly designed garments with MVTR of 3000 and garments in the tens of thousands then in general you are going to notice some difference in the performance of the garment at least some of the time and extensive reviews are consistent with that being the case... but with the garments up around the top end of the scale the differnces are less noticeable between them if at all... in the right conditions i find event and neoshell are better than gore tex in keeping down the sweat buildup

[nq111]

[I'm not sure eVent would ever transmit enough air for you to actually feel it. I think you'd feel more like a slightly chilled feeling in high wind.

I can feel a slight breeze through my eVent shell - no doubt about it.

[wayno]

depends on the windspeed... it lets though a percentage of air so at some point you feel the air assuming you dont have a lot of insulation underneath...

[forest]

I'll let you all know what I think when mine arrives. Yes that's right I couldn't help myself and ordered one. Brother in law is working in the states at the moment and purchasing gear with no international postage is just too tempting. Stucks that the dollar isn't as strong but it had to happen.

[Supertramp]

I'm sure you will be more than happy with it

[andrewa]

Oops , I've just ordered one too....but I was primarily interested in a larger Cuben tarp....the jacket and double sided cuben tape just somehow "slipped" onto my order...........wife's in Europe with second daughter, so I don't think she'll be looking at credit card statement anytime soon! Not that she does normally.....unless I ask about an aberrant entry, in which case there's normally some outdoor gear purchase of mine just underneath it!

Not sure about the colour- my most likely use will be as a rain jacket for fly fishing.....white not so good, unless standing on a high bank with white clouds behind......does anyone know whether you can dye cuben fiber?

Andrew A

[Strider]

does anyone know whether you can dye cuben fiber?

Isn't it dyneema fibres in a mylar base (i.e. plastic in plastic)? I doubt it.

[andrewa]

The Dyneema rope I bought for my hammock suspension from Whitfords (boat shop) was dark grey. That would be a miles better colour for a jacket. My Zpacks hexamid is mid grey. Why des this jkt have to be white???! Maybe a perfect Aussie SAS jkt for winter ops??

A

[simonm]

Dyneema is a brand name. The fibre is UHMWPE (Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethelene). Cuben Fibre can be bought in just about any colour you want.

[simonm]

Sorry I meant to add I think the general concensus is that Cuben cannot be dyed after the manufacturing process.

I also notice that Cubic Tech do actually refer to Dyneema Fibres being used so ignore my pointless point in the previous post.

[forest]

My cuben eVent jacket arrived yesterday.


It's really light...................

[wayno]

no excuses now for not walking even further.....

[forest]

Knew you would bite Wayno, not even 30 seconds..... Your a shocker.
I'm just uploading some pics from my phone now on the fabric.

[forest]

Okay so my first post was really just a test to see how quickly Wayno took the bait........like 30 seconds so no suprised there
Sorry I couldn't help myself.

Now the jacket, It's everything I hoped for but actual testing in the field will prove more than my lounge room inspections.
I ordered a size large with pit zips but with a 36" long zipper (which is the 4" longer torso length of the XL). This was not because I'm really lanky but I wanted more upper leg coverage and get a little tired of "raincoats" that only just make my belt line in some cases (And I'm only 5'11"). The length I am very happy with, the additional length gives me coverage to about 5-6" above my knees so it's pretty long which is awesome for the weight. Ah the weight, mine is 160g but that's with the extra length, long pit zips and I had Joe add a little buckle set-up to hold my hood rolled up as I often wear a waterproof broad brinmed hat and don't use the hood (much cooler).
The fabric is super thin and not like anything I have seen before. I have attached pictures of a light shinning down through the fabric to show what I mean, and a picture of the OR Hellium II fabric for comparison. Just my thoughts but this jacket should breath really well, the figures state it should. The fabric looks the same to me inside and out and is just covered in all these small perferations or holes, how this is three layer is beyond me, it's super thin but it feels strong. It's not a coat I would purposefully take for heavy off track use but I'd say it would take more punishment than you would expect as I have found out with other cuben fibre gear I have. DWR is excellent under the usual sink test, nothing sticks to it that's for sure but it's not the same as actual field use. Time will tell that. It also rolls down very small as one would expect for the weight. Workmanship is excellent and some of the best I have seen from the cottage guys. Zpacks sure is getting better and better each item I purchase. There's some sewn like the lower hem and cuffs, some micro sealed seams looking job, I cannot even pick that out other than there is clearly a join in the fabric and there is also some small reinforced area's with clear cuben tape like the drawcords etc. The cut of the jacket is pretty basic but I have ordered a size that will allow me to layer my puffy jacket/vest (Even together) underneath without compression. I could have ordered my correct size which is a medium and I'm 2" under the chest measurement on zpacks dimensions for that. But I always go a bit larger with my shells to allow layering and a little more airflow.

It will be interesteing to see how this one goes. I guess you could say it's no huge weight saving over my current UL shell which is an OR Hellium II (182g). Time will tell but experience has taught me that pit zips can be invaluble for me as I cook up a storm in even the lightest shells without them when highly active, I might never find that ballance though. eVent jackets have been the most breathable for me to date though. I have picked up those pit zips for less weight and also I'd say near to 10" of length in the jacket. Keeping a dry ars$ when out and about with no shell pants, that's gotta count for something, again for less weight. Compared to my other great shell (Arc'Teryx Theta SL) coat which has pit zips and a longer torso length than normal (But at least 6" shorter than the zpacks) this seems a winner for the trails and tracks. Compared to my Arc'Teryx with equal features this coat weighs a massive 250g less, okay the Arc'Teryx has pockets which this doesn't but that's no huge deal to me.
Breathablility will be a big tester. I'm going on a 37km trail run tomorrow in Barrintopn Tops and the jacket will be taken but the weather is looking clear so not much chnace of use. If it's chilly in the morning for our early start I might chuck it on but I can soon see the corker trail raising the body temp pretty quickly
When I do get it out in the rain I'll give it a good test.

[wayno]

doesnt look like any event 3 layer membrane i've seen before, normaly you cant tell the difference between event and normal gore tex three layer (non Proshell) with the nylon tricot knitted backer...... looks more like a 2.5

[Pongo]

May I ask what this bad boy set you back?

[forest]

May I ask what this bad boy set you back?

http://www.zpacks.com/accessories/wpb_jacket.shtml

[Supertramp]

The zpacks jacket I have is a very different looking material to that.
Makes me want to but the new jacket!!

[Joomy]

That fabric is bonkers looking. Seems to me like they've almost inverted a "1.5 layer" eVent fabric, with the coating on the outside and the eVent on the inside, all stuck to a layer of Dyneema fibres in the middle. Maybe?

Must .resist urge to purchase one.

[wayno]

another review here makes a bit of mention about the layer construction

http://jwboutdoors.com/zpacks-waterproo ... in-jacket/

I ask Joe Valesko (owner of Zpacks) what I was looking at and he described those dots as a lighter weight material that water vapor could more easily pass through. I am guessing that these dots are the key element that gives this fabric such a high MVTR compared to all other materials out at present time.

[forest]

That fabric is bonkers looking. Seems to me like they've almost inverted a "1.5 layer" eVent fabric, with the coating on the outside and the eVent on the inside, all stuck to a layer of Dyneema fibres in the middle. Maybe?

Must .resist urge to purchase one.

Just to clear this up I can see how they claim three layer. That dotted face fabric is on both sides of the jacket. It's not like other shells I have owned and played with that have a inner and outer side. This looks the same both inside and outside. But there is definately another layer of something in between the fabrics. I must say though it's thin enough to pass as a single layer jacket........
No use on Saturday, It was stinkin hot !!