lightest, strongest, cheapest pyramid

[Chezza]

I assume the minimum number of stakes to set the shelter up is much higher than a regular mid too. Perhaps double the amount? Then consider the extra stake weight for any panel pull tie outs you wish to use. If you're going to be using this in snowy conditions then those snow stakes/anchors add up the grams pretty fast (typical titanium snow stakes are about 18 grams each [via dutchware]).

The Apollo has 9 ground level tie-outs, and 4 mid-panel tie-outs. That's pretty much the same as any 4-sided mid.

On a philosophical note, I think it is wrong to include weights of tent pegs and guy lines when comparing shelters. As an example, imagine shelter X and shelter Y both weigh the same without guy lines and pegs, have identical geometry and construction, and both require a minimum of 4 pegs to pitch. But shelter X can take a total of 10 pegs, while shelter Y has enough tie-outs to take 26. I'd choose shelter Y any day of the week. Take 4-8 light pegs on lowland sheltered trips, and 26 (+spares) burly pegs if I plan to pitch on an exposed ridge in the Main Range.

By the way, CTF3 is the 0.51 oz/sq.yd stuff. Will need a little bit more care when handling than the 0.75 weight fabric MLD and HMG use.

[jakeyarwood]

... Thanks for so much detailed feedback. Not sure it's helping me climb out the vortex, or fall deeper, but it's really interesting either way!

Regarding the HG tarp, I'm gonna PM you as that's exactly what I ordered. Hope you dont mind

No problem at all. Seems like the vortex is getting a little bigger either way Do post back with any info you get regarding the weight of the cuben Apollo too.

[jakeyarwood]

Given the discussion here of the Locus Gear, I just checked them out. Had not heard of them before. The Khufu CTF3 looks a possibility maybe in combination with a bivvy. Does anyone know what the pack size is by any chance? Also on the Khufu CTF3 page it states "In addition, the optional parts DPTE makes inner space more comfortable and allow 2 persons to use." Can someone explain the DPTE reference?

Thanks

The 'Hike it Like it' site is pretty spot on w/ packed size measurements as per Tim's comment. However, here's a quote and images from an email Locus Gear sent me regarding pack size too:
"The length is ab 27cm and dia is ab 12cm."

IMG_0857.JPG (72.58 KiB) Viewed 21286 times

IMG_0858.jpg (60.97 KiB) Viewed 21286 times

[jakeyarwood]

The Apollo has 9 ground level tie-outs, and 4 mid-panel tie-outs. That's pretty much the same as any 4-sided mid.

On a philosophical note, I think it is wrong to include weights of tent pegs and guy lines when comparing shelters. As an example, imagine shelter X and shelter Y both weigh the same without guy lines and pegs, have identical geometry and construction, and both require a minimum of 4 pegs to pitch. But shelter X can take a total of 10 pegs, while shelter Y has enough tie-outs to take 26. I'd choose shelter Y any day of the week. Take 4-8 light pegs on lowland sheltered trips, and 26 (+spares) burly pegs if I plan to pitch on an exposed ridge in the Main Range.

By the way, CTF3 is the 0.51 oz/sq.yd stuff. Will need a little bit more care when handling than the 0.75 weight fabric MLD and HMG use.

Very true Chezza. I have no experience with such a design so this is just conjecture but I assumed it would require more than 4 stakes to setup the Apollo in any instance whereas a typical Mid you can setup with just the 4 corner tie outs in fair weather?

Totally see where you're coming from. It can be really variable so your reasoning makes sense. I agree, more tie outs is definitely better.

CTF3 is actually just another name for cuben fiber and doesnt denote typical fabric weights
In any case, Locus Gear list their materials here: http://locusgear.com/material/?lang=en, and to quote that page: "LOCUS GEAR uses the grade of 25.3g/sqm of CTF3 for our products." I think that in turn means they actually use the same grade of cuben MLD and HMG do. I.e the 0.74oz/sq.yd?
The technical name for the 0.51oz/sq.yd is CT1.E08 according to Ripstoll by the Roll. They also list both their 0.51oz and 0.74oz under the CTF3 term:
http://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/0- ... uben-fiber
http://ripstopbytheroll.com/products/0- ... ruce-green

[Chezza]

Thanks Jake. I stand corrected on the CTF3. That was lazy research on my part.

[Chezza]

Very true Chezza. I have no experience with such a design so this is just conjecture but I assumed it would require more than 4 stakes to setup the Apollo in any instance whereas a typical Mid you can setup with just the 4 corner tie outs in fair weather?

Totally see where you're coming from. It can be really variable so your reasoning makes sense. I agree, more tie outs is definitely better.

You're right, you'd need all the ground level pegs to properly pitch the Apollo, whereas you could get away with 4 on a 4-sided mid. But I'm not sure taking only 4 pegs would ever be wise - the loss of one in wind would collapse the shelter and you need the edge-center and mid-panel tie-outs to create more useable room in the smaller 4-sided mids.

[Aushiker]

The 'Hike it Like it' site is pretty spot on w/ packed size measurements as per Tim's comment. However, here's a quote and images from an email Locus Gear sent me regarding pack size too:
"The length is ab 27cm and dia is ab 12cm."

IMG_0857.JPG

IMG_0858.jpg

Thank you. Very helpful. I just need to convince myself that I can go floorless now ... thinking I will take the Scarp 1 out sans inner and see how I cope. I guess adding a lightweight bivvy into the mix is another possibility but I really wanted to get the weight as low as reasonable and pack size as small as reasonable as this is for a bikepacking setup.

Also might try some polycryo as a ground sheet or cut down the Tyvek I have currently for my Scarp 1

[jakeyarwood]

Thanks Jake. I stand corrected on the CTF3. That was lazy research on my part.
...
You're right, you'd need all the ground level pegs to properly pitch the Apollo, whereas you could get away with 4 on a 4-sided mid. But I'm not sure taking only 4 pegs would ever be wise - the loss of one in wind would collapse the shelter and you need the edge-center and mid-panel tie-outs to create more useable room in the smaller 4-sided mids.

No problem at all sir

Gotcha, I thought that would be the case. Indeed, it's certainly advisable to take more than 4 stakes in any scenario. I suppose the minimum number of stakes needed comes down to simplicity of setup and just adding as dictated by conditions and the type of ground you're pitching on.

[Giddy_up]

If you lose a peg or guy ripe on a mid in big wind, you lose the lot. Don't scrimp on the 4 corners.

*rope

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jakeyarwood]

Thank you. Very helpful. I just need to convince myself that I can go floorless now ... thinking I will take the Scarp 1 out sans inner and see how I cope. I guess adding a lightweight bivvy into the mix is another possibility but I really wanted to get the weight as low as reasonable and pack size as small as reasonable as this is for a bikepacking setup.

Also might try some polycryo as a ground sheet or cut down the Tyvek I have currently for my Scarp 1

That's okay FYI, Locus Gear also have a bonded version of the CTF3 Khufu that is available for order via email (they haven't gotten around to putting it up on their site yet). They showcased it at an event in Japan last weekend (see: https://twitter.com/valley_island/statu ... 6965858304)
It is significantly more expensive than their current offering though (65,000yen in white and 67,000yen in colours) and a wee bit heavier (315g vs 290g).
They are also working on a modified air vent for their shelters at present (see: https://hikinginfinland.com/2016/02/new ... -2016.html), so it could be worth inquiring about that if you do decide on ordering the Khufu, as I'm not sure if they've implemented it yet.

At least you can test the whole floorless concept before making the jump, that is certainly beneficial. I think you'll dig it! If you want to keep the weight and pack size to a bare minimum then a polycryo ground sheet would be the go I reckon. If you'd like some bug protection then you could pair said groundsheet with a simple head net or a larger Sea to Summit style bug net.

[earthairfire]

So I took the plunge and have bought a 2nd hand HMG Ultamid 2 with both a 1/2 CF inner and full CF inner which gives me more options that I can shake a stick at. Totally blew the budget, but oh well

For anyone else reading this that may be interested in either a shangri-la 2, LG Apollo, Duomid XL, or HMG Ultamid 2 (all are cuben), I'm happy to pass on details to the folks that came out the woodwork with toys to sell!

Cant wait for the snow to arrive now!

Cheers,

Tim

[Giddy_up]

Well done Tim, did you pick that up in the U.S off Mike?

[earthairfire]

Well done Tim, did you pick that up in the U.S off Mike?

US yes, but not from Mike. Someone got in touch via the backpacking light forums.

[jakeyarwood]

Awesome. I'm sure it'll be well worth the expense!

[davidf]

Thanks all and this is a bump for the thread.

Jake to begin with mentioned the mega mid, have one, love it weighs a tonne.

Have used a home made mid, good butnot storm proof.

The bits and peices gathered though comment are great!

[Gusto]

I have a mid tent that I've used many timed and I do really like it. I purchased it over 5 years ago.

However if I was purchasing a mid style tent again then the Mountain Hardware Hoopla tent looks great. I never seen one up close, but I don't know why no one ever recommends them.

Obviously if the tent is to be used in snow then it may have some porblems. But other than that, what's the advantage of a normal mid

[Chezza]

If you look at the Hoopla in profile, draw a line in your head from the apex to a bottom corner. I think you'll see that because of the diameter of the hoop and height of its placement, it only increases headroom slightly when compared to a hexagonal mid of the same dimensions. I suspect they choose to keep the walls fairly slanted to maintain performance in wind, and keep the flattish area near the top small in view of snow loading. If the walls were near vertical it would sway a lot in wind. You don't gain that much room for all that hoop pole weight. I'd rather save another 400-600g and lose that little bit of extra room. The Hoopla is 1kg...

The Trussring and Floating Frame geometry are patented by Nomadic Comfort, so you'd need a licence to use the design. You won't see cottage manufacturers use it anytime soon, and the big manufacturers just don't seem to do ultralight shelters well.

MH also have the Yurtini which I think is a much more sensible use of this design.

For tents that won't be pitched in the full force of wind or are semi-permanent the Trussring is a brilliant design.

http://nomadiccomfort.com/?page_id=27

[Mark F]

I don't think the patent would actually stand up to inspection. There have been several makers of car camping type tents that use a 4 sided "ring". Is it innovative to add extra sides/form a circle? A requirement of patent law. Have a look at the OZtrail Tourer 9 http://oztrail.com.au/product-range/tents-swags-camper-trailers/tourer-9-canvas-tourer-tent-by-oztrail. I have a similar tent for car camping that is at least 10 years old.

[MPoland]

For anyone else reading this that may be interested in either a shangri-la 2, LG Apollo, Duomid XL, or HMG Ultamid 2 (all are cuben), I'm happy to pass on details to the folks that came out the woodwork with toys to sell!

earthairfire – definitely interested!