Bushwalk Australia

My well loved Mont Moondance 2 has a leaky floor and is on the way out. When the money is there I'll be looking to replace it with something that's lighter and more spacious for 2 people.

One of the numerous options that I'm considering is a mid, but I'm quite ignorant about them and need to learn more.

Most of my walking is done in the 3 seasons that aren't winter. I occasionally snow camp and would love to do so more often but if I'm realistic then I'd say that 4th season use isn't a major factor.

My doubts about mids:
- It's rare that I don't need mozzie protection when camping. If I have to use an inner almost all of the time then I lose a lot of the weight benefits.
- Condensation. How well do top vents work to prevent condensation build up? Do you also need a decent gap at the bottom?
- Cold weather use. If it's really cold and you do need a gap to prevent condensation, then wouldn't it get rather cold and breezy inside?
- What's the go with cooking inside a mid? Okay with a small flame stove? Or a good way to coat the walls in moisture?

I imagine that a bit of condensation is part and parcel of this type of shelter. Fine if you have plenty of space inside but a pain if it's cramped and you're constantly rubbing against wet walls.

My partner and I are thinking of a trip to Peru next year and could be independently doing some high altitude walks (perhaps Huayhuash Circuit, Ausangate Circuit). I think a mid would be good for this (no bugs up there so could really minimise weight) but wonder about cold breezes under the walls on -10 mornings! Something spacious for long, cold nights would be great.

Thoughts appreciated.

I've only got a couple nights in my mid, but here are a couple of thoughts. You are correct when it comes to bug netting and weight, but I suspect a few tweaks could get you a decent setup, and don't forget not much else will get you as much center height as a mid, so it might be a reasonable trade-off. Condensation doesn't stay in the tent unless you touch the walls, so you won't get pooling on the floor, and realistically, wall contact is a problem with any tent. Venting: any gap is actually a lot of square inches of space, and any thermal convection is moving air, unlike many tents that have a small vent that doesn't have an inflow and outflow. As for temps, I'd say that they probably don't hold that much heat, due to the venting, so you'd need to be sure of your insulation. I'd take chilly dry over warm wet (as much as I am not a cold weather person) but not everyone is the same.

Hope that helps, I'm a mid rookie, but I figured that might help your perspective.

I have an extra wide Borah Gear cuben bivy (170 grams) in a MLD Trailstar so its a similar setup. But I wish I had a cuben DuoMid. Anyway with a bivy...

- It's rare that I don't need mozzie protection when camping. If I have to use an inner almost all of the time then I lose a lot of the weight benefits.
>Not an issue with a bivy

- Condensation. How well do top vents work to prevent condensation build up? Do you also need a decent gap at the bottom?
> Who cares, you are in a bivy. Open the door a little as well to help.

- Cold weather use. If it's really cold and you do need a gap to prevent condensation, then wouldn't it get rather cold and breezy inside?
> Not in A bivy

- What's the go with cooking inside a mid? Okay with a small flame stove? Or a good way to coat the walls in moisture?
> Moisture - who cares, you have a bivy and unparalleled head room.

I started researching for my first cubenfibre Mid about 4 months ago and looked at the HMG Ulta Mid4, the MLD Super Mid, Zpacks shelters and the LocusGear Khafra. I wanted a somewhat spacious, ultralight, 4season/4person cubenfibre mid that I could confidently use up on the MainRange/HighPlains in winter and that can take a decent wind and snow loading. I will only be using it for 2 people but I wanted something roomy in case I was boxed in crap weather/blizzard. I finally narrowed it down to either the HMG UltaMid4 or the LocusGear Khafra. A difficult choice (I actually REALLY wanted the HMG) but the LocusGear Khafra won out as HMG could only offer one full size mesh inner option whereas Locus offers a range of sizes, variations, colours and materials for their inners. I asked Mike Pierre at HMG if a custom 1/2 inner could be made for the Ulta4 but a solid 'no' was the answer which then obviously sealed the deal with LG.

Was advised back in May by Yuki that he could only fulfil my special request/order (a seamless, fully bonded, black Khafra) in early Sept. Received an email from Yuki (LG) yesterday to advise he's now ready to fulfil my order - so today I finally put my $cash$ down for the Locus Gear Khafra (4season/4person) in Black, CF3-B cubenfibre, fully bonded (seamless), black zip, extra ridgline tieouts, guylines, bag and weighing in at only ~450grams. I was considering getting Yuki to add a custom black CF snow skirt around the base but decided not to at this stage. Wait time ~6weeks. Communication with Yuki at Locus Gear has been absolutely brilliant - he's very attentive to his emails unlike HMG which at times took weeks and weeks for an answer. Free shipping to Australia is a bonus with Locus Gear too!

I will be experimenting/matching the Khafra with a Ruta Locura 18mm carbon fibre, 4 piece, custom cut, adjustable pole that weighs in at ~170gm.

Most of the time I will use a MLD Superlight Bivy but will have the option of a Locus 1/2 inner for some trips - which I will purchase later.

As an aside - last week I was watching a video of someones Everest summit climb back in April/May 2016 and I noticed in amongst all the heavy duty, 4 season expedition tents way up at the Everest Advanced Base camp in the Western Cwm (below the summit) a lone, largish, white Mid (looking like an HMG Ulta Mid4?) - not bad I thought!


VVV Below is the smaller 320gram LocusGear Khufu mid (black cubenfibre) - together with optional snow skirts and half mesh inner VVV

Evan at Terra Rosa Gear has a mid he is working on so it might be worthwhile contacting him when the time comes.

This video was posted last week - looks pretty sweet for a mid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnGr1MnTLlg

My mid experience is limited to a series of Chouinard/Black Diamond Megamids.
Personally I think a bivvy is almost mandatory except in the height of the dry season, Megamids never had venting until recently so condensation is something you learned to deal with.
Never had a problem cooking inside but as always care is needed, the centre pole is a space stealer and a Megamid was a palace for one and adequate for two and an emergency shelter for 4 to 6.
Floor-space-wise I think I would go for a pentagonal floor next, rather than square. Think GoLite ShangriLa
Large mid with solo liner the way to go for me if I was looking seriously and if for winter a small stove and a much bigger tent

Thanks for all the replies people.

Evan at Terra Rosa Gear has a mid he is working on

Yep, I've been keeping an eye on his progress on the mid. Looks good but maybe a bit smaller than I'd like. I might go and have a look in the flesh soon.

This video was posted last week - looks pretty sweet for a mid.

Does look good. But it brings up another doubt I have about (most) mids - having to climb over your tent partner to get in and out!

PedroArvy - you're right that most of those issues can be solved with a bivy, but I've never really liked the idea of the things! I want to be able to relax, move around, sit inside my tent and be free from mozzies. Not to only be able to escape mozzies once I'm lying down in bed. Also, cuddles with my tent partner are important! I haven't ever used a bivy though, so I shouldn't dismiss it until I've tried it I guess. I could of course use a lightweight mozzie net instead of a whole inner.

Condensation doesn't stay in the tent unless you touch the walls, so you won't get pooling on the floor, and realistically, wall contact is a problem with any tent.

My concerns about condensation stem largely from my experience using a MLD Cricket. I haven't used it heaps, but I've found that despite the very large opening it gets a lot of condensation (perhaps due to the lack of a vent at the top?). It's also a quite small shelter, so I find it difficult to avoid getting my sleeping bag wet from wall contact, and to avoid knocking water down when I inevitably bump something while clambering in or out.
Wall contact isn't a problem on all tents - only single skin shelters. Or maybe only cramped single skin shelters.

Stew63 - I looked at your mid thread with interest and checked out Locus Gear. Looks very nice. I'd prefer to buy locally if possible.

Drew wrote:I'd prefer to buy locally if possible.

Good luck with that - not much here/available right now in mids that I know of - but I could be wrong.

Not to only be able to escape mozzies once I'm lying down in bed. Also, cuddles with my tent partner are important! I haven't ever used a bivy though, so I shouldn't dismiss it until I've tried it I guess.

If you get an inner tent the muck around factor on setup and total weight makes a tarptent like a StratoSpire far more convenient and probably roomier. For 2 its far better than a mid IMO.

Good luck with that - not much here/available right now in mids that I know of - but I could be wrong.

Probably just Terra Rosa's offering. As Evan does custom jobs though something bigger than his mid might be possible.

If you get an inner tent the muck around factor on setup and total weight makes a tarptent like a StratoSpire far more convenient and probably roomier.

Yep, you might be right - and that's what I'm trying to figure out. The Stratospire is high on my list of non-mid shelters. Good that like a mid it can be used without an inner for a very light shelter. Not as bombproof of course.

Bearing in mind that this is the UltraLight forum - some other things to take into consideration between the Mids and Tarptent SS2 - obviously other peoples needs or requirements of a tent will differ to mine but below are things that are important to me. The comparisons and advantages (advantages for my use) of a cubenfibre Mid over the SS2:

Huge floor area: Khafra 7sq/m UltraMid4 8sq/m SS2 3sq/m
Headroom: Khafra 172cm UltaMid4 191cm SS2 127cm
Weight: Khafra *800gm UltaMid4 #1365g SS2 1300gm

*including an optional half mesh inner for 2 persons (many variations/options from LG available here)
#including an optional full size mesh inner fits 4 persons - no other inner options available with HMG.

Poles: Only a single ultralight/adjustable 19mm carbon fibre pole required for the mids @170gm compared to a pair of telescopic trekking poles weighing in at 300~400gms for the SS2. (Many peeps don't hike with trekking poles)

Internal height: The mid Khafra has 172cm of headroom and the mid UltaMid4 a massive 191cm so you can easily standup (to get changed etc.) in the mids. The SS2 at a mere 127cm - you cannot standup - very low headroom and not so spacious as claimed.

Strength: Mids provided they're are pegged correctly in the first place are bombproof and will take a huge wind and snow loading. (The SS2 I just wouldn't have confidence on the MainRange in a blizzard)

Weight: This is a no brainer for me as I try to achieve ultralight nirvana - the cubenfibre is WAY lighter, stronger and does not absorb any moisture when wet compared to nylon. The SS2 is 1/2 kilo heavier (plus telescopic trekking poles) for a much smaller tent compared to the spacious LG Khafra. When my pack base weight is only ~2.6kgs an extra 500gms++ is too much to ignore.

Setup: In a blizzard or windstorm - only 4 pegs, one ultralight pole - and BAM - it's up and it's already 80% bombproof - followed by several further tieouts and couple of extra pegs to add strength and make it 100% bombproof.

Stew63 wrote:Setup: In a blizzard or windstorm - only 4 pegs, one ultralight pole - and BAM - it's up and it's already 80% bombproof - followed by several further tieouts and couple of extra pegs to add strength and make it 100% bombproof.

This benefit has to be experienced to be appreciated. The speed and simplicity compared to anything else that I have used is extraordinary.
Strangely, I don't recall set up speed featuring in other discussions of mids.

I am a little wary of zip quality in this type of shelter as if the zip fails, you have a much bigger problem than if a zip fails in a conventional tent.

Speed is important
Stability in a wind is the other benefit
These outweigh the disadvantages IMO
In winter remember to add in the weight of the support pad tho and perhaps a pole extension if you use a pit to increase internal room.
Mids used in winter would benefit from valances although I never did add any to any of mine
The major benefit to a mid tho is to be able to stand up and stretch out and that needs a bigger size mid than the UL smaller versions

Surprised no one has tried to talk you into a Tarptent yet.

The floor area in a mid is not comparable to a Stratospire as the edges are far less useable in the mid.
Add an inner and it becomes even smaller.

See http://sectionhiker.com/the-problem-with-pyramid-shelters/

The problem with many pyramid style shelters (such as the MLD Duomid, the Solomid, and the Trailstar to name a few) is that they suffer from low angled walls which reduce the amount of usable interior space inside.

See also this recent review regarding space http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=23121

Plus the cost, Ultramid 4 is USD 850
Plus inner USD 475
Ouch!

I actually own a Trailstar and usually pitch it really high at 145cm in the middle and 140 at the door which removes the loss of space issue. I'd never use it with an inner though, too messy to pitch. If that was my preference I'd use a tarptent.

I am not personally familiar with the SS2 in really high wind but there's a thread here about it http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=21071.

I think you should be buying a tent whose main features cope with 95% of your situations (lubby-dubby + ease of use factor) with the ability to deal with the other 5% without perhaps excelling in them.

"Surprised no one has tried to talk you into a Tarptent yet."

Thank you for mentioning the brand ...
Gives me the opportunity to explain some differences between the typical 2 person mid , single or double pole.
People looking at mids often focus on the weight and cost of fly only.
Then they add an inner/hanging net/bivy to keep the bugs out.(pegs,groundsheet and pole or pole adaptor for some...)
At that point cost and weight goes up and if opting for a full inner , space is heavily reduced .
The SS2 was designed with the inner as part of it but of course it can be used without.
This is what you can do fly only:

That fly is 700g , $230USD. At that is pretty competitive for weight/usable space/cost.
When you add the inner you have a large 2 person enclosure or a tight fit for 3 but still without pole/s in the middle.
A family of 4 did the full Appalachian Trail inside the SS2 with inner , that is more than many will do in a lifetime. (3500 Km, the Overland x53))

with the fly on you have two large vestibules that can take two large packs and 2 pair of boots in each half ,getting in and out of the shelter the floor and your gear in the vestibule are still outside the drip line.

So compere features (usable space/drip free floor/no poles in between) with weight and cost (1300g, $349) and you will find that it may not be a bad choice.
BTW, I mentioned before that the SS2 is not particularly easy to visualise however there are plenty of photos and video clips to help there.

Thanks for the interesting discussion guys.

The usable space issue is a big one. I'm thinking now that if I did get a mid, I would definitely want it to be one of the larger/taller ones. Evan at Terra Rosa has told me that he's almost finished work on a bigger model mid. I'm going to delay my visit to his workshop until he's got it done. Not sure of its exact size yet though.

Plus the cost, Ultramid 4 is USD 850
Plus inner USD 475
Ouch!

Cost is definitely a factor. There's no way I'll be spending that much. I haven't really looked at the costs of the Locus Gear options so not sure how they compare.

I think you should be buying a tent whose main features cope with 95% of your situations (lubby-dubby + ease of use factor) with the ability to deal with the other 5% without perhaps excelling in them.

Good advice! Realistically I'm unlikely to be using it in a blizzard in exposed spots on the Main Range. Most of its use will be in reasonably sheltered sites in the Vic Alps. And I'd happily take a bit less bombproofness if it means we'll be more comfortable the vast majority of the time. One of the things spurring my research though is the idea of a high altitude walk in Peru. From what I've seen of people's trip reports it doesn't look like high winds are likely to be a factor, but my gut tells me that I should be well prepared for anything at exposed campsites 4500m high! Hopefully I can get some more info about this...