Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

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Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Aushiker » Sat 23 Sep, 2017 5:22 pm

I was sorting through my kit today in early preparation for a 10 day bikepacking trip and I realised that I had managed to crush some what my Trail Designs 12-10 stove. Of course the cost of replacement is seriously expensive {postage is a killer] so I have decided to look at my options. If I stick with the alcohol stove are there other good options for a stove? Would say the Evernew EB-254 be a serious contender putting aside its weight of 36 g (a gain of 20 grams)? Price wise it is around the same as the 12-10 if I get it with other stuff from http://ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk.

Looking at my fuel usage, stove, calder cone kit etc my alcohol system weight is coming in at around 900 to 1,000 grams for the 10 days.

Alternatively I can go with a gas canister system and assuming I can use two 110 g canisters over the ride I am looking at 523 grams plus the weight of the stove. Even if I was super conservative and went with three canisters I would be at sub 750 grams so still in front. I carry the canisters from the start as it is not likely I can get new canisters on the ride. This is one of the reasons I generally go alcohol as I can source that easily.

I would likely use 110g canisters due to the very limited packing options on the bike but if I can pack a 230 g canister I would be saving more weight. Will not know until I get to the packing stage.

Anyway if I go the gas canister route, what are the best in terms of pack size and lightest weight stoves today? Packed size is the first priority here. Is the Fire Maple Hornet FMS-300T at 44g a serious contender? Other options

At the end of the day I may still setup myself up to go either alcohol or gas depending on the trip so open to thoughts on both options.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Mark F » Sat 23 Sep, 2017 5:45 pm

I am currently using a BRS-3000t which has proved cheap (around $15), reliable and very light (25 grams) although there are occasional reported issues with quality. I bought 2 just in case one had problems but both are ok. I do strip down ANY new stove to make sure there is no dust or metal filings left in it from the manufacturing process and ensuring nothing is done up so tight that I cannot strip it down in the field. I also carry a couple of spare o rings and a short bit of electrical cable with an end stripped off that acts a pricker. Only ever needed to use it once and not on the BRS but over the years I have also replaced a couple of O rings in stoves that can be damaged by poorly formed threads on a canister.

My setup with pot (Evernew 900ml), storage bag/cosy, stove, windshield and lighter is 160 grams with room for the stove and a 230 gram canister to fit in the pot.

Edit - for an extra 36 grams I can also pack my cut down jalna joghurt pot mug/bowl in the pot as well. Jalna yoghurt pots fit perfectly over a 230g canister.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby South_Aussie_Hiker » Sat 23 Sep, 2017 8:17 pm

I will never go back to alcohol stoves.

Gas is lighter, more convenient, and safer.

How much gas you’ll need will depend on whether you need to boil drinking water.

If you have safe water access and only need to do food, here’s a rough guide for two people for six days;

Two cups of tea per day plus rehydrating a commercial meal like backcountry ... one 230g wasn’t quite enough.

If you do ten days on your own a 230g might just cut it if you’re careful. You could take 1x 230g and 1x 110g canisters plus a stove and still be around 600g total weight - well in front of alcohol, plus redundancy of two canisters and oodles of gas.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Aushiker » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 12:12 am

South_Aussie_Hiker wrote:I will never go back to alcohol stoves.


That is not always a practical option for me, especially when remote bicycle touring/bikepacking. Gas canisters are not always easily sourced once you get out of major centres here in the West or away from popular bushwalking routes hence why I would like to consider both options. I also do like the chilled approach to a cuppa that the alcohol stove brings:)

Getting back to the gas usage I did some more accurate maths and I am looking at 7.75 days of usage so the 230 gram canister should be okay with say 110 gram as an emergency backup according to Hikin Jim's gas calculator. That also ties in with what you are suggesting.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Orion » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 2:35 am

The BRS-3000t is probably the lightest canister stove at ~25g. But, like your alcohol stove, the BRS-3000t is fragile. I accidentally bent the pot supports on mine on one trip and had to wait until I got home and could use some tools to straighten them out. A couple of times I couldn't get a canister to screw in and seal. Everything looked fine but for some reason they wouldn't seal. So now I test every canister with the stove before a trip. One other thing, there seems to be an inevitable loss of a small amount of gas every time a canister is screwed on or off, more than with the other canister stoves I've used. And the pot supports are pretty dinky. All this kind of makes me wonder sometimes if I'd be better off with a stove that weighs 50g more. The weight of the stove isn't that big a contributor to the total weight of the cooking system. That said, the stove works really well. Best low simmering control of any stove I've ever owned. Weighs so little and folds up so small you could easily lose it. I've tossed it into the ditty bag as a spare stove on a few longer trips.

Whenever I've considered alcohol stoves and did the math I've always concluded that there was no real advantage in terms of weight, and certainly not in terms of usability. But there are many who feel otherwise.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby ChrisJHC » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 8:30 am

I've converted to only using an alcohol stove - in my case a DIY Tuna Can. It is slower than gas but I'm usually in no hurry when I'm out bush.

I budget on 100 mL of metho per day which gives me a hot rehydrated meal each night plus a couple of coffees/soups each day. Metho weighs 0.8 g/mL so 80 g per day.


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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Aushiker » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:03 am

@Orion thanks for your feedback on the BRS-3000t. After mark mentioned it I did a bit of reading around on it, particularly here and I was a little turned off the idea. I am happy to comprise on weight/packability a bit to get a reasonable degree of reliability. I am not as focused (or skilled for that matter) on gear maintenance as say Mark so not so handy at resolving or avoiding potential issues.

I am now seriously considering an Fire Maple FM 116T (or maybe a Kovea Spider) as a balance between weight, reliability and packability for a gas stove. I like the low cooking profile as I use a narrowish pot, a Toaks Titanium 850ml.

Still need to resolve my alcohol stove problem but. I will touch base with Trial Designs and see if they can come up with a reasonable postage cost.

@ChrisJHC thanks for the information on metho weight. I did more accurate maths and I am pretty sure I will need ~ 800mls which works out at 640 g + bottle(s) weight, say 50 grams.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Orion » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:30 am

ChrisJHC wrote:I budget on 100 mL of metho per day which gives me a hot rehydrated meal each night plus a couple of coffees/soups each day. Metho weighs 0.8 g/mL so 80 g per day.


I've been making a cup of coffee, a cup of soup, and a rehydrated meal, plus sometimes I pop some popcorn. It works out to something over 1 liter of boiled water a day. I'm using less than 20g of fuel per day. When you include the weight of the container (the metal canister) it's closer to 35g per day, and of course some of that weight I have to carry out.

But I still think I'm ahead with respect to weight when compared to ethanol. Sometimes I see comparisons where the opposite conclusion is reached.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Aushiker » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:41 am

It looks like I can get a Starlyte modified burner (stove) for a reasonable shipped price so may have sorted my alcohol stove problem (of my own making). With the gas side pretty much sorted I have options ... chilled "cooking" or not chilled cooking :)
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Mark F » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:47 am

Andrew - everybody has to find their own level of comfort with essential gear. I am sure you are quite adept at fixing bicycle problems and upright gas stoves are far simpler than any derailleur. :D My philosophy is that I should be able to maintain any essential gear in the field or at least be able to cobble up an alternative.

Metho and gas really come out at about the same weight with different scenarios giving different outcomes. I prefer gas for the simplicity and potential to use it inside a tent vestibule. I find that I use about 20g of gas a day with a cup of coffee in the morning and soup, main meal and possibly a hot chocolate in the evening. I usually allow 4 days for a 100g canister and 8 or 9 days for a 230g after allowing for a little extra.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Franco » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 10:56 am

For gas stoves, if you choose to go that way, and if you get a remote type, you can than get an adaptor so you can use the butane BBQ type canisters.
adaptor.jpg
adaptor.jpg (10.03 KiB) Viewed 32168 times


BTW, at BPL I meant to link to Dan's Fancee Feest not the other but I have also seen good reports on the Caldera Cone StarLyte combo .

Primus butane/propane 230g 395g
Generic butane (BBQ) 220g plus adaptor 350g
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Mark F » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:26 am

Just a warning for anybody contemplating using BBQ style canisters with an adapter. Inside the canister is a metal tube aligned with the notch on the canister rim. When the notch is upright the fuel feed is gas drawn from the top of the canister. If the notch moves far from vertical or the canister is stood upright then the fuel feed becomes liquid and dangerous unless you have a stove with a pre-heating tube. Not all remote stoves have a pre-heat tube.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Franco » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:32 am

Good point Mark.
Much safer with the pre-heat (the Kovea Spider does) and no, not safe at all if used upright.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby jeremyw » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:00 pm

Curious, why not esbit? You can make a brian green esbit tray pretty easily (BGET) that will be compatible with the caldera cone as well - http://briangreen.net/2011/11/titanium- ... stove.html

I find the soot left from esbit (brand) to be minimal, its only really a problem if you use the cheap brand esbit stuff like colghans?

Re alcohol:

How does a fancy feast stove fit under your caldera cone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz-3IX6inZw

I found the carbon felt on aliexpress for mine and it works really well. But I suspect the price probably came out more expensive than shipping a zelph starlyte via a reshipper would have.

Re gas stoves:

BRS 3000T - 25g, has some grunt, cheap, folds up very small, QA issues regarding pot stand meltdowns

Kovea Supalite - 60g, bit more grunt than the BRS, quite a bit more expensive, holds up very small like BRS, known issue with thread pin length on some cans - haven't ever had an issue myself and I hear you can tighten it a couple extra cranks to solve the issue
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Mark F » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:27 pm

I know Esbit is popular in the states but here it is harder to find than canisters. A 14g tablet costs about $1.50 ($9 for a box of 6) and people think gas canisters are expensive.
No gas stove requires more "grunt" unless you want to waste a lot of gas. All need to be run at quite low settings to obtain maximum efficiency.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby ChrisJHC » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 1:55 pm

Plus Esbit (or the more available in Aus "Hexy" leaves a sticky residue on your cooking gear.

"Hexy" = Hexamine = what the Army uses for cooking


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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Aushiker » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:34 pm

Mark F wrote:Andrew - everybody has to find their own level of comfort with essential gear. I am sure you are quite adept at fixing bicycle problems and upright gas stoves are far simpler than any derailleur. :D My philosophy is that I should be able to maintain any essential gear in the field or at least be able to cobble up an alternative.


Fair point ... :)

Metho and gas really come out at about the same weight with different scenarios giving different outcomes. I prefer gas for the simplicity and potential to use it inside a tent vestibule. I find that I use about 20g of gas a day with a cup of coffee in the morning and soup, main meal and possibly a hot chocolate in the evening. I usually allow 4 days for a 100g canister and 8 or 9 days for a 230g after allowing for a little extra.


Great information. I must admit I do enjoy the zen of cooking with alcohol ... the silence, the potting around whilst the pot boils ...

My routine would see me boiling two cups at brekkie (coffee and porridge); cuppa at lunch; cuppa at camp on arrival, then dinner (one+ cups) and maybe a hot chocolate. Maybe a couple of cups more boiling than you. For me that equates to around 90 mls to 100 mls per full day out and about.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Aushiker » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 4:35 pm

Mark F wrote:Just a warning for anybody contemplating using BBQ style canisters with an adapter. Inside the canister is a metal tube aligned with the notch on the canister rim. When the notch is upright the fuel feed is gas drawn from the top of the canister. If the notch moves far from vertical or the canister is stood upright then the fuel feed becomes liquid and dangerous unless you have a stove with a pre-heating tube. Not all remote stoves have a pre-heat tube.


Thanks for the heads-up. The FM-116T does not have the pre-heating tube so something to keep in mind for sure.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby wildwanderer » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 7:18 pm

Also remember that its fairly easy to use up all the gas that ignites at colder temperatures on chilly mornings. I use the MSR Isobutane canisters and I always have gas left over that I cant use because Ive used up all the "chilly air" gas of the canister mixture for my 7am coffees while its close to zero degrees. During winter I now go with 100grams for 3 nights. If I do 4 nights I find i run out of gas while boiling my first cup of coffee on the morning of the 5th day or very occasionally during dinner on the 4th night. Not a happy camper in that scenario. :(

Apparently warming the canister mitigates this problem to some extent but I always forget to put the canister in my sleeping bag when I wake up.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby jeremyw » Sun 24 Sep, 2017 11:10 pm

Mark F wrote:I know Esbit is popular in the states but here it is harder to find than canisters. A 14g tablet costs about $1.50 ($9 for a box of 6) and people think gas canisters are expensive.
No gas stove requires more "grunt" unless you want to waste a lot of gas. All need to be run at quite low settings to obtain maximum efficiency.


Re price, agreed, and for the reason below I avoid the cheap stuff too. I guess I don't get out enough for it to bother me - especially when I look at my $600 sleeping bag and $500 tent...

Thanks for calling me out re grunt, you are correct.

ChrisJHC wrote:Plus Esbit (or the more available in Aus "Hexy" leaves a sticky residue on your cooking gear.

"Hexy" = Hexamine = what the Army uses for cooking


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Esbit really isn't that bad in my experience, a bit of scrubbing post trip takes most of it off.

I have noticed the cheaper versions leave a lot more residue than esbit, they also splatter a lot more too which probably explains it.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby rcaffin » Sat 30 Sep, 2017 8:04 pm

Apparently warming the canister mitigates this problem to some extent
And so does a remote inverted canister stove. That's what most skiers use in the snow.

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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Nuts » Sun 01 Oct, 2017 4:42 pm

I have a 12-10 that has never been used, likely never will be (I replaced it with a modified Kovea Spider and that Zelph stove). Happy to post at cost.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Davidf61 » Sun 01 Oct, 2017 9:08 pm

Never ending argument, for me I really only want to boil water, quite happy with meths and Trail Designs in various sizes.

Usually pull up, may get stove out, light up then dawdle around and put up tarp, organize sleeping arrangements and so on.
Try very hard not to think about TIME it takes to do stuff, usually out in the scrub to get away from that persistent annoyance in my life......
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Aushiker » Mon 02 Oct, 2017 12:38 am

Nuts wrote:I have a 12-10 that has never been used, likely never will be (I replaced it with a modified Kovea Spider and that Zelph stove). Happy to post at cost.

Thank you for your kind offer but I have a Zelph stove on the way to me. Maybe someone else could benefit from your generosity.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Nuts » Mon 02 Oct, 2017 12:38 pm

Sure. I'd rather someone got use of it. Send a message (someone).
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby Nuts » Mon 02 Oct, 2017 6:24 pm

That was quick :) I think I have another somewhere (they came with the TD kits) if someone can use it i'll be motivated to keep an eye out.
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Re: Revisiting my stove options ... alcohol or gas or both

Postby enlightened0ne » Thu 30 Nov, 2017 5:40 pm

I use a homemade version of a Zelph starlyte and a TD caldera. 30mL of metho per day gets enough hot water for drinks for 3 of us, plus cooked dinner and breakfast. The TD 24-10 is a nice quick boil but it's very fuel inefficient and it can spill. If you're interested in trying a starlyte-style stove without paying $US and postage costs, I've been making extras and selling some to people on this forum.
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