Bushwalk Australia

I'm looking to lighten my pack down, and the pack itself (Osprey Exos 48 no lid 1036gms) is one of the big items I can save on.

After refining my kit following my recent OLT trip (ie throwing money at my Lighterpack list), I'll be around 10kg including 7 days food/water for the Overland Track, and similar for a Larapinta load out including 3L water.

https://lighterpack.com/r/fdgnbu

I've been looking at the Wilderness Threadworks Luxmore 48, and the Zpacs Arc Blast 55.

Luxmore is frameless 210D Gridstop, Zpacs external frame DCF.

I've read some good things on here about the Luxmore, read of some reliability/quality issues with Zpacs in general.

Luxmore made in Aus is a big advantage.

Luxmore is 1.09gm saved/$, Arc Blast is 0.77gm/$.

I'm leaning to the Luxmore, and really want to support a local company, but I'm worried about going frameless as a very new hiker. The Exos was great in Tassie, even carrying almost 14kg on day 1 down and up that track to Scott-Kilvert, but it's heavy.

Those of you with the Luxmore, or who've gone to a frameless pack of any brand, how was the transition?

I'm torn and can't make a decision, so keep giving up and sticking with the Exos. It's infinity gms saved per dollar spent and I know it works ok.

I'd say stick with the Exos, especially if it worked well for you and was comfortable.

I started out frameless and have a number of packs of that type, down to as low as ~350g. I've just bought a framed pack about the same weight as your Exos to replace them all. Double the weight, and I'm looking forward to it

Frameless becomes a real pain when you get the main items out and it loses all structure as a result. In camp I got sick of always fighting with my pack to find, access, and stow gear, and on a recent trip I finally cracked it when the pack spent all night lying in the mud and rainwater in my vestibule because it couldn't stay upright against the pole without my tent in it...

I've decided that I'd prefer the extra weight for the ease of use and convenience if nothing else. We're meant to be enjoying it when we're out and about and, if something is a constant frustration, it should go I reckon.

That said, heaps of folks are frameless and love it, so knock yourself out if you are driven by weight above all else. If you go frameless I'd avoid Zpacks on reputation alone.

coimon wrote:I'd say stick with the Exos, especially if it worked well for you and was comfortable.

if something is a constant frustration, it should go I reckon.

That said, heaps of folks are frameless and love it, so knock yourself out if you are driven by weight above all else. If you go frameless I'd avoid Zpacks on reputation alone.

Thanks coimon, real world experience can't be beat.

I guess the main driver for dropping weight is with the aim to make it so I hardly know the pack is there. Which is pretty much how my Exos felt on the last couple of days of the OLT, at around 9kg all up.

If it's uncomfortable or annoying that defeats the purpose. I'm not planning on long fast hikes or anything, just want to enjoy the time I get to spend hiking.

Zpack option is expensive landed here in Aus. If it tore or came unstitched or whatever there'd be no point chasing warranty. It's a risky choice in any case.

Are you looking for a rucksack that will do both a weekend and a week? Also I have a feeling you may have underestimated the weight you will be carrying with a weeks loadout looking at your lighterpack. I reckon you might need a combo sack that has some sort of frame for bigger carries that you might remove to go frameless for three to four day trips providing it will compress and keep it's shape. I wouldn't want to lug around seven days without a frame myself, I don't think. WTW also have the beefed up Luxmore with a removeable frame sheet?
HMG might also do the trick. Tried and true.
I reckon if you will always and only be doing the big trips and carries-over four to five days and the Exos works think about keeping it. If you plan on doing some shorter trips as well around the one to four days perhaps get a frameless 30L Sonder maybe, for them. I use a WTW Sonder frameless. With your Lighterpack you would get 3-4 days easy in that. Good hunting.

Thanks Lamont.

I live in Mildura so any hiking trips are going to involve a minimum 5 hour drive or a flight, so I'm thinking it will mostly be bigger trips of a week or so. Although the Grampians aren't far away so some 4 day weekends there are likely.

My lighterpack list linked above is basically what I took on the OLT a couple weeks back, substituting in a lighter tent (Notch Li, yet to purchase), lighter pad (Neoair) and lighter down jacket and mid layer (Macpac Uber light and Macpac Nemo Nitro), as well as a more accurate food carry (I bought a fair bit of food home) and some general refinement. I had heat, rain, wind, light snow, slept in the tent every night, walked around the lake so full 7 days. It wouldn't be far off, maybe I'd take a bit of extra just-in-case food.

Having a WTW Sonder for shorter trips is a good idea. That will give me an indication if I like frameless or not.

No worries. As you haven't bought the Macpac Uber think about a Cumulus Primelite.

ZPacks Arc frame is very delicate and under tension which creates some issues. First, it is a potential point of failure that makes it very uncomfortable if that happens. Second, it can deform under heavy loads, also making it uncomfortable and unstable. Third, if it does break, you have to send it to the US for repairs and Zpacks is known for sometimes patchy customer service.

I have a few packs but my fav is a Hyperliite Mountain Gear Southwest 3400 paired with their packing pods and a pack liner if it’s going to be really wet. It cinches down for a sturdy day pack, is great for a weekend hike, can fit and carry up to 7 days food and gear, is narrow enough for ski touring. It has 2 removable aluminium stays but I leave them in all the time.

An advantage the Arc has is it’s off your back so it’s well ventilated compared to the HMG.

Lamont wrote:No worries. As you haven't bought the Macpac Uber think about a Cumulus Primelite.

Already have the Macpac Uber and Nitro in my hiking wardrobe so I'm not going to look at the Cumulus.

Not going to look. I'm not....

Tino B wrote: Hyperliite Mountain Gear Southwest 3400 .

At 910gm according to their website it's not enough gain over my Exos at 1036gms, but when the Exos dies I'll keep it in mind.

Good feedback on the Zpacs, it's off my list.

Do you have a windshirt yet? Or an UL synthetic vest?
Can't help with the pack question as I'm a dinosaur where packs are concerned except to say that a frame helps a lot when the load gets even moderately weighty.

Moondog55 wrote:Do you have a windshirt yet? Or an UL synthetic vest?

No, I don't and I keep reading about them but haven't seriously considered getting one yet.

I was fine on the OLT but I wore my rain jacket (OR Helium2) a lot of the time - it rained from Windamere most of the day, rain/snow/hail from Kia Orah most of the day. Wet otherwise apart from days 1,2 and 7 which were relatively warm (29 on day 1). Macpac Tui (over long sleeve Merino shirt) under the rain jacket leaving Kia Orah in the snow/hail.

So there wasn't much time when it was cold and windy, but not wet. I assume that's where a wind shirt is an advantage over a rain jacket? Very new to this so happy to listen to any and all advice.

timh I think you have a gear junkie addiction With the HMG South West (which would be a good scrubber) and the Exos (airspeed ventilation), you have two good options already. Personally I'd rather carry a couple of extra 100gs than be uncomfortable.

And that's the real problem, if you could load both up and try them on, I think you'd know which one is most comfortable and go for that.

As much as I like WT, I'd go the Arc Blast and sell the Exos. The advantage of the Luxmore is it will survive the scrub better but you already have a great pack in the HMG South West.

Otherwise buy both and take a shower on the pack(s) you sell. Done that before, bought a Sonder and an MLD Burn, kept the Sonder.

crollsurf, I don't own the HMG, that was an option suggested by someone further up. I only own the Exos, my first and only hiking pack.

Yes, I have a problem with buying gear I am addicted to picking up packages from the post office and saying "wow, that's really light".

Actually, I'm happy to buy duplicates of a few things so I can get some friends to come along. So if I buy a new pack/tent/jacket etc I intend to keep the older one and loan it out so others can get addicted... err... learn to enjoy hiking... like I do.

timh wrote:Actually, I'm happy to buy duplicates of a few things so I can get some friends to come along. So if I buy a new pack/tent/jacket etc I intend to keep the older one and loan it out so others can get addicted... err... learn to enjoy hiking... like I do.

Same, always good to have a few spares hanging around for family and friends.

Seeing as you don't already have the HMG, I'd change my recommendation and go the Luxmore. I don't think you'll need the extra carrying capacity of the Arc. Plus the Luxmore is Australian made and will handle the scrub way way better, i.e. Tassie.

Something to consider also if you haven't already-the Luxmore will be considerably smaller than the Exos. About 8-10 litres difference.
Osprey include the whole internal capacity only in their specs-so even with the bowed back it is pretty close to 48-49 litres internal. The Luxmore will be 40L internal, the rest, eight litres is made up of outside pockets. I had the 38 Litre Exos some time back for about 4 days worth of stuff and it fit quite a bit inside.
Cheers.

No affiliation, but there is a business called lighter faster hire that rents UL packs out. The possibly have both of these for you to try out. Might be worth it just to try a frameless pack.

The arc blast will feel more familiar than the luxmore.

The wilderness threadworks has the advantage of more bomber construction, locally made and there is some scope to get it modified/Change fabric etc if you want to.

I didn't realise the size difference, never even considered it. Very useful information. My Exos (48L minus pack lid so about 43L I guess) was comfortably full on day one of the OLT, including stuff in side and front pockets. Some of that was excess food but I'd struggle with much less room.

Hiring one would be great to see if frameless works for me, will follow that up.

Thanks all.

Hi,

Run...well hike with an arc blast.

Great, comfortable, does what it is supposed to.
The previous comments about broken frames etc are hypothetical? an arc user?
It is not bombproof, no pack is, well at these weights they are not.
So yes you have to look after it and not throw it around.
I use a lot of light, compact gear and the pack has seen me through about 5 years plus so far.
Tend to load at at between 10 - 13kg for multi day trips and decided years ago that was the most I want to put on my back.

I think you have to look at the frame / no frame aspect.

Frameless is a very different proposition.

YMMV

I have an Arc Blast, and find it very, very comfortable.

But I also sense its delicateness, especially in situations like putting it in the boot of a car, or squeezing it between a row of bus seats. The way the frame, frame attachment points, and hip belt attachment points are exposed, make it very easy to snag on things and get overstressed.

It doesn't seem so delicate when actually out hiking with it.

If you're the careful sort you'll be ok with it.

Have you looked at Atom packs?

In this current climate, and if you have the capacity, now is the time to support an Australian small manufacturer, this is a tough time for small business and it is likely to be that way for some time. I have spoken to Dan recently and he would definitely appreciate the support.

I have two of his packs, the Sonder and Ossa, and his workmanship is exceptional.

If people want a cottage industry in Australia they need to support it, if they want it to grow they need to support it.

simonm wrote:If people want a cottage industry in Australia they need to support it, if they want it to grow they need to support it.

I agree but people shouldn't be shamed into buying something that isn't really what they want.

I have an older model WTW Luxmore made out of very thin cuben fiber (it seems they no longer use this material) and used it on the 3000km Te Araroa trail; the pack now has about 3500km on it total. While the cuben fibre has a few small holes worn it (im rough on the gear and regularly overload it) its still servicable and the workmanship of the pack itself is impeccable!

If you pack a frameless pack correctly it can have quite a solid structure (I roll my foam sleeping pad inside it like a barrell, others fold their inflatable mat and lay it down the back). I can be good to support an Australian product and it works out cheaper than american cottage industry. It can be tough choosing a new pack, specially if you cant see them in person and try them on!

I saw a couple of Z-packs on the TA that had worn out/failed on the frame connection points.
In saying this i got carried away and ordered an Atom+ 40L in sexy desert tan to replace 'cheesy'. I think its a tad small for my needs, so its for sale, or ill swap for a HMG if anyone is interested send me a message

Ahh similar position I was in last year - I had used the Exos for a few trips and really liked it, but I didn't need the full 48L. Pulled the trigger on a Sonder 36L and the craftmanship is amazing. I have fit 5 days worth of food in it with minimal tetris-esque packing.

I was tossing up between the Sonder and the Zpack Nero/Arc Blast. Few things swayed my decision:

- Reviews I read on this website and Oz facebook groups all said that the Zpacks didn't last long in the Aussie bush (put me off DCF packs in general)
- Zpacks customer support is reportedly terrible (Reddit goes on about this ALOT), so I was worried if I had any issues, trying to organise warranty overseas wasn't going to be fun
- Dan from Wilderness Threadworks is a top bloke and to have the option to throw money at an Aussie company was too good of a chance to not pass up

I stumbled uponthis site and this thread by accident. I was in the same boat thinking about WTW, Hyperlite and Atom Packs. But it sounds like WTW is going to win. Plus their pricing seems really good, especially for a cottage local product. Awesome. I'm leaning to the Ossa 48L myself. I was just wondering if anyone knows if they offer a larger pack at all. Around 60L. But I would like to think that I can get a 48L to work for me.

AndyG wrote:I stumbled uponthis site and this thread by accident. I was in the same boat thinking about WTW, Hyperlite and Atom Packs. But it sounds like WTW is going to win. Plus their pricing seems really good, especially for a cottage local product. Awesome. I'm leaning to the Ossa 48L myself. I was just wondering if anyone knows if they offer a larger pack at all. Around 60L. But I would like to think that I can get a 48L to work for me.

He used to-The Blackburn.
Perhaps ask him if he still does.

Just my $.02....

I have had the WTW Sonder 36L for about a year now and ill say that the pack has really inspired me to be a better, lighter hiker. I had an Exos and found myself filling it for the sake of it as i knew it was set up for the higher weights, once i switch to the frameless Sonder i had to rethink many things and i am happy to say it has made my time on trail much better. I started to consider HOW i was packing and WHAT i was packing for trips as space is really important. My base weight when i first got the Sonder was about 7KG and it was a bit heavy, im now down to 4.5kg and sometimes i forget im wearing it.

I take some great pleasure in knowing it was handmade here in Australia and that i am supporting this community. Its not the only factor, but it's one.

So yeah, i vote for the Luxmore

And another $.02... s worth... Like the comment above it all comes down to how much you are carrying with the frameless setup. I hiked with an Aarn Peak Aspiration for three years including the balance pockets and really liked it. Tarptent Pro Trail as well so was not to heavy. I now have a Luxmore from WTW and had to relearn how to pack a backpack. I got the optional pocket on the inside and load it with my Tyvek footprint wrapped around my Thermarest neoair (1 or 2 breath inflation) as the sweat does not penetrate the Tyvek. I use a bin liner for the rest of my gear and start by putting all my light bulk down the bottom... spare clothes, thermals, socks etc. Middle layer is my tent in a loose water resistant stuff sack in case of wet packing it. Then cooking gear, water (if needed for long dry days) food, electronics etc... then but my sleeping bag stuffed around the top and sides to fill out the pack ... I have to say that since shedding a few kilos through better quality gear, sleeping bag, self made cooking gear (ie kojin and wind shield) and the Luxmore weighing in at 600 g... It is by far the most comfortable pack and style of walking I have done. Sweat is not an issue with the 20 cent bin liner. Getting the base weight down to 4-4.5kg has just made life so much easier as far as long hauls go. I cannot fault the quality, price and customer service from Wilderness Threadworks. It took me half a day of playing around with the packing of the new style of backpack and changing how I think about packing. The side pockets I use for my platypus foldable bottles and a Powerade bottle for ease of use and easy to get to drink. I keep a bunch of stuff in the front large pocket for day to day use. Snaplock bag if it is raining. Really enjoy the weight reduction and hence less wear and tear on my body. I would consider a framed backpack again if carrying really heavy loads but do not see it in my immediate future. Hope this helps with any decisions.
https://www.thehikinglife.com
Have a look at this guys site for packing tips etc for frameless. Impressive amount of info ... changed how I walk.. Enjoy

I can only comment on my experience with the zpacks arc frame system. On the AT I had Arc Haul and the two bottom and one top metal rods penetrated the webbing holding it to the pack. The pack became useless. The first broke in the first 200 miles and I called the walk at 1540miles because the only way I could get them to repair it was to wait 2 weeks. They did repair it and say it is now stronger but I got rid of the pack and would never buy another. It never had more 13kg in it and it was rated for 18kg. No phone number and their customer service was crap, via emails, from the east coast of the USA so I don't know how you'd go from Australia. For info I replaced it with a ULA Circuit which may get a run SOBO on the PCT or CDT this year, but loving it at the moment.