no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

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no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:27 pm

even if the minister of conservation approved the routeburn tunnel, it would have been dragged through the courts for month

the minister has pointed out the monorail is quite a different proposition, unlike the tunnel. it doesnt go through a national park, it does go through a DOC forest.
it doesnt go near a high importance walking trac.
so he's not ruling out bowling a 40km corridor through native beech forest to stick a monorail through it.
i'm guessing the proposal is for a monorail to get a monopoly, otherwise all you'd need to do is put a dirt road through and save the money of the monorail..

http://www.wildernessmag.co.nz/view/pag ... -monorail/
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby Clusterpod » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:44 pm

Amazing.

I just can't grasp the logic.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 12:56 pm

national government = make money from conservation estate

the monorail isnt offering anything other than a quicker trip between queenstown and milford sound where the bulk of day visitors to milford sound come from.
the vast majority of not all the people taking the monorail will be on a day trip through the area.
travelling through a beech forest is hardly a unique experience in he south island or in that part of the south island... although the monorail will be a novelty... the govt can clip the ticket from all the people travelling through doc land.... or at least charge an annual fee to allow the tourism operators to operate on govt land.

the govt can say well they arent rubber stamping all concession requests on their land since they have devlined the milford tunnel next to the routeburn track.
This is protected forest, you can't mill it, you can't buy it. but you have a chance to fell it to put a monorail through it.
hunters will become excluded from the area if it goes through...
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 2:17 pm

Given that tourists can't be stopped and is in increasing numbers, If the monorail can replace these ever more fossil fuel burning tourist buses along traditional highways, would that not be a good thing, a more sustainable arrangement?
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 2:23 pm

well its being replaced by a fossil fuel gas guzzling catamaran, 4wd shuttles and the monorail... debateable how much fuel it is saving at all. its going to be more expensive to take the trip which points to more fuel consumption...
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 2:50 pm

Yes, a perpetual argument, all driven by tourism dollars. The question is, how much does NZ need that money and whether a majority of the electorate hold that view?
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby Hallu » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 2:54 pm

I don't see how cutting trees that are by essence carbon traps is better than using fuel powered vehicles. It's true that electricity production in NZ is pretty green (well, after having destroyed many ecosystems thanks to a huge number of dams), but destroying a forest isn't. Besides, there's an obvious way out : just develop Te Anau as well as Queenstown, put an airport etc... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the surroundings of Te Anau are quite flat and not forested : it's mostly farmland on the East and South. The government should buy those farms and develop Te Anau. What practicality is there in having to take public transports from Queenstown to go to Milford ? I know that most people take the cruise and that's it, but the best part is exploring the mountains. And Queestown is quite congested in summer and the ski season, letting some pressure go to Te Anau would probably be a good thing for everyone.

Their "trip" with 3 different types of transport sound really crazy... It looks like something done especially to suit the needs of wealthy Chinese tourists, who don't want to walk at all. But if you appeal to your common sense, it's a very expensive complicated trip to the middle of Milford (from Te Anau downs you need to take another shuttle to Milford Sound...), is Kiwiburn that good ? I'm convinced that in less than a decade, the needs of Chinese tourists will have evolved dramatically, and that they'll need what we all want here : wilderness, solitude, pristine environments, wildlife, scenic roads, authentic food, unpretentious friendly accommodation, and not just a fast expensive bang for the buck photogenic crowded trip.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby Clusterpod » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 2:57 pm

GPSGuided wrote:Yes, a perpetual argument, all driven by tourism dollars. The question is, how much does NZ need that money and whether a majority of the electorate hold that view?


Begging the additional question of how much will the initial construction cost NZ, what the real return will be.

Its private construction.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:06 pm

off the top of my head its going to cost a mere $170 million
http://www.fiordlandlink.com/project_mo ... ummary.htm
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:21 pm

Clusterpod wrote:Begging the additional question of how much will the initial construction cost NZ, what the real return will be.

The financial justification will all be in the numbers. What's Tourism NZ's projection? As for the bigger picture, the conflict b/n economic benefit and environmental protection will always be there. A decision the NZ people will have to make. The only true way to reduce environmental impact on this planet is population reduction. Contraception, single child policy, war amongst others... But even those are being opposed by sections of the society. :roll:
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby Hallu » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:31 pm

Well it's not like NZ's roads are clogged up all year long... I've been to the South Island right around New Year,supposedly THE peak season and there were no traffic jams... I knew I had to avoid Abel Tasman NP, but other than that, it wasn't crowded. Milford Sound feels like a train station sure, but the rest of Fiordland NP was fine. At Punakaiki, the pancakes rocks were packed, but you could take a walk a couple of kms further and be pretty much alone. That's nowhere near the American NPs or Europe's mountains at summer.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby Clusterpod » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:34 pm

GPSGuided wrote:
Clusterpod wrote:Begging the additional question of how much will the initial construction cost NZ, what the real return will be.

The financial justification will all be in the numbers. What's Tourism NZ's projection? As for the bigger picture, the conflict b/n economic benefit and environmental protection will always be there. A decision the NZ people will have to make. The only true way to reduce environmental impact on this planet is population reduction. Contraception, single child policy, war amongst others... But even those are being opposed by sections of the society. :roll:


Sure. "The G20 has agreed that boosting growth and jobs is the near-term priority for the global economy as it faces a "fragile and uneven" recovery." The big cheeses say Growth and Jobs before anything else, and a monorail construction will certainly provide some semblance of that. Growth demands more people.

My point is, by my understanding, its a private construction through DOC land. So the people of NZ are being asked to subsidise the construction even if no actual dollars are being paid. So the real return has to take into account more than just tax revenue from the monorail operator
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:35 pm

Hallu wrote:Well it's not like NZ's roads are clogged up all year long... I've been to the South Island right around New Year,supposedly THE peak season and there were no traffic jams... I knew I had to avoid Abel Tasman NP, but other than that, it wasn't crowded. Milford Sound feels like a train station sure, but the rest of Fiordland NP was fine. At Punakaiki, the pancakes rocks were packed, but you could take a walk a couple of kms further and be pretty much alone. That's nowhere near the American NPs or Europe's mountains at summer.

Let's keep it that way. By the time the roads get clogged, it'd be too late.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:41 pm

Clusterpod wrote:Sure. "The G20 has agreed that boosting growth and jobs is the near-term priority for the global economy as it faces a "fragile and uneven" recovery." The big cheeses say Growth and Jobs before anything else, and a monorail construction will certainly provide some semblance of that. Growth demands more people.

My point is, by my understanding, its a private construction through DOC land. So the people of NZ are being asked to subsidise the construction even if no actual dollars are being paid. So the real return has to take into account more than just tax revenue from the monorail operator

Awfully complex financial calculations there. Like so many projects, once the calc goes to potential support jobs at the 2nd or 3rd tier levels, it's way more than what most of us can fathom. To the government and many in the electorate, jobs are what matters. Now, only if people are willing to stay with their present standard of living and not demand for higher wages, more jobs, more material goods... Tough one.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby Hallu » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:50 pm

Well then NZ should give up some of their tourists to Tasmania, they're badly needed there anyway. But I think the solution is simply to stop people from taking their vacation at the same time. How, I don't know, as it's mostly due to school holidays around the world that are always at the same time (July/August, Easter and Xmas/NY). I wonder if a government has ever tried it before...
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:56 pm

there are conservation management plans to say what can and cant be done on conservation land
but they have become irelevant... companies can apply for concessions to get around the plans. but the dept of conservation just dish out concessions left right and centre, they allow large project like this for consideration, the applications for concessions are getting bigger and more frequent....
the monorail may be a sign of whats to come, the govt have indicated they want more commercial activity and sponsorship involved with the conservation dept and on conservation land.... if national stay in power , schemes like this will get approed sooner or later
the tunnel was a more environmentally and financially risky proposal. if it failed to be completed it would have cast a long shadow over subsequent concession applications for large projects. the minister of conservation may just be looking for more of a sure thing to approve and use them as examples how the consents can benefit the local businesses and tourism...
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 3:59 pm

Didn't the French start it all? Workers rights, 40 hours weeks, annual leave etc? Ummm... When people worked 16 hours a day, 365 days a year, tourism wasn't a problem then, apart from those Kings and Queens who decided to transform an area with their monuments of desire.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 4:02 pm

long working hours were a thing of the industrial revolution, in the middle ages, you could have up to 80 religeous holidays on top of sunday off....
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 4:13 pm

wayno wrote:long working hours were a thing of the industrial revolution, in the middle ages, you could have up to 80 religeous holidays on top of sunday off....

We can forget those religious ones too. Just get people to "work"! Those with the skills will be sent to repair bush tracks. ;)
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby Hallu » Mon 22 Jul, 2013 4:32 pm

GPSGuided wrote:Didn't the French start it all? Workers rights, 40 hours weeks, annual leave etc? Ummm... When people worked 16 hours a day, 365 days a year, tourism wasn't a problem then, apart from those Kings and Queens who decided to transform an area with their monuments of desire.


It's 35 hours now =) Although it doesn't work that well, only in the public service do people work 35 hrs a week. Most work 40 or more. And yes we do have more holidays, about 8 weeks a year, but we usually only take 4 or 5 (Christmas and August) because we don't have enough money to go on holidays for 2 months a year, and the weeks we don't take aren't paid back to us, unlike in Australia (no idea about NZ).
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Tue 23 Jul, 2013 1:24 pm

intresting article here about the tunnel and monorail decisions

http://www.scribd.com/doc/154393802/Furore-in-Fiordland
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Wed 30 Oct, 2013 2:57 pm

Fiordland monorail plan gets official support

The official advice, from the Department of Conservation and Hearing Commissioner recommends he "approve the project subject to extensive conditions.'' That is the opposite of advice that saw Smith reject the Milford-Dart tunnel because of its impact on Fiordland National Park.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11148936
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 30 Oct, 2013 4:38 pm

Bummer!
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Wed 30 Oct, 2013 4:45 pm

not fait acompli yet, the minister still has to make a final decision,,, i'm not hopeful... question is, if they put it in, how much will it affect business in te anau...
i dont think any of the reasons he gave for turning down the routeburn tunnel apply to the monorail... not to the same extent, no one other than opponents have raised flattening a massive corridor of trees through the forest as an issue.
if the minister doesnt see that as an issue and he thinks the developers have the resources to complete the construction, then theres little reason for him to deny the proposal
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 30 Oct, 2013 4:54 pm

How much business does Te Anau receive from Milford Sound traffic? Guess it'll be like all country towns that get bypassed by a new freeway. I enjoyed Te Anau when we were there and can see how it can continue to survive by its own character and charm, let alone accesses to surrounding areas. It's those 1 day Milford Sound visitors that'll be missed and they don't stay at Te Anau anyway.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Wed 30 Oct, 2013 5:10 pm

the only road into milford sound goes through te anau....
most people going on buses to milford, come via queenstown for the day. i'm not sure how many of the buses stop...
but theres still a lot of people who go to milford sound who stay at te anau..
it won't kill all the business, but its a more novel way of travelling and faster. so it will have some impact, it will be more expensive to do.
the vast majority of visitors who stop at te anau will be going tou milford sound... the rest will be tramping
the monorail offers people another way to get to the milford track, bypassing te anau... although you're supposed to go to te anau to pick up your tickets. you can let doc know you won''t be collecting them and use a printed booking confirmation instead to get on the track... i'll stay in te anau the night before a tramp but i usually go back to queenstown the day i come out of the bush. far better choice of places to eat at queenstown, its part of my ritual to eat out after a tramp. the selection at te anau is pretty basic. its the poor cousin to queenstowns upmarket image.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 30 Oct, 2013 5:46 pm

The pizza joint at Te Anau wasn't bad. ;)

Yes, that's what we did too when we went to Milford Sound. Te Anau was a very interesting town and I loved the surrounding environment. Would definitely stay there a bit longer and explore the surrounding area. The proposed monorail would be quite boring for me but would definitely suit some tourists.
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Tue 12 Nov, 2013 5:32 pm

news video clip on the monorail. may not be viewable from aus

http://www.3news.co.nz/Where-would-the- ... oHYCfkmclI
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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby wayno » Fri 30 May, 2014 8:04 am

from the land of the long white clouds...

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Re: no milford tunnel. decision on fiordland monorail next

Postby GPSGuided » Fri 30 May, 2014 8:16 am

Sigh of relief!
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