Sadly another person dies in NZ

[wildwalks]

I'm sorry he died and i'm saddened by it and for his loved ones.
but Forget about what you've seen from Peter Jackson movies and scenic photos and videos of NZ.
come over to NZ and stray off track you better know what you are doing and have your wits about you and know how to assess risk and act accordingly or you could end up like this man..
the terrain here kills several people a year, needlessly
I know someone who disappeared in the alps, permanently. A trained rescue dog couldnt find any trace of him, despite knowing where he went..

Missing tramper likely drowned in gorge
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6469833 ... lkin-river

[GPSGuided]

Water and altitude are bad news there.

[wayno]

Coromandel ledge fall claims life of Australian tourist
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11382231

Lost climbers rescued near Queenstown
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/ ... Queenstown

[Strider]

Thread title is a bit insensitive mate. Someone here could know or even be related to this person.

[JohnStrider]

Thread title is a bit insensitive mate. Someone here could know or even be related to this person.

Agreed.

Are most of these fatalities in alpine/mountain areas?

[corvus]

Post deleted

[walkon]

Like the Transport Accident Commission adds that were on tv, I think Wayno is trying to highlight a point that from past posts he's sick of the same old recurring again and again. How many people as they read an article say to themselves that 'it wouldn't happen to me I wouldn't have done that' when the truth of the matter is we see people doing these things all the time. If this heading gets the attention of someone to stop and consider their actions then I'm all for it.
I can think of two funerals that I've been to in the last few years that could have been avoided had less 'diplomacy and tact' been used.

[earthgrace]

To put things in a better light, is it worth discussing what *are* the risks for a newbie? I'm aware of the risks of where I hike locally. But I would need to learn more about conditions elsewhere. Per wayno's point I perceive NZ as a far less dangerous environment than my local surrounding, but that is because I am ignorant there. (Of course, this may well be another thread. Not trying to take it off topic.)

[gayet]

...I think Wayno is trying to highlight a point that from past posts he's sick of the same old recurring again and again. How many people as they read an article say to themselves that 'it wouldn't happen to me I wouldn't have done that' when the truth of the matter is we see people doing these things all the time. If this heading gets the attention of someone to stop and consider their actions then I'm all for it.
...

Agree completely.

[wayno]

Thread title is a bit insensitive mate. Someone here could know or even be related to this person.

I'm sorry he died and i'm saddened by it and for his loved ones and my condolences to them, but i'm also i'm sick to death of reading about people dying in the NZ wilderness for want of some common sense. let stories like this serve as a warning, educate yourself and upskill yourself, but dont just wander off on a whim with your sense of danger turned off.
these stories are from this week alone.. i see people who are their own worst enemies in the mountains all the time and so do a lot of other experienced NZ trampers, a lot of the time you can't tell them anything, i've had arguments with people who were going way out of their depth, and nothing would get them to change their minds, if you get a plan in your head , be prepared to alter it at any time if you smell danger or things arent going as expected... their focus is about adrenaline and adventure without any balance for understanding how to go about being safe in the outdoors...
he won't be the last to die like this.
not even the kayakers or SAR would go down that gorge. no one should have gone into that gorge, he cant have come across any information about the gorge before hand because no one has ever attempted it because its too risky. he went in on a whim because he saw something exciting to do, and there was only ever going to be one conclusion, death...
like the death on the milford track last year, the comments of the people who survived the river crossing was, "we couldnt turn back" well that was a lie. there was nothing stopping them turning back, they had one plan in their head, cross a flooded stream to get to the hut they wanted to get to and one of them drowned,
they could have waited to see if the river went down, they could easily have turned back but didnt think walking back the five hours to the hut was an option, plenty of options are better than persisting through a flooded stream thats beyond your experience and ability.
when i was brought up with bush craft we were given a lot of tough love and serious warnings about the mountains, they kill people regularly through inattention, inexperience and bad decision making... theres a doco put out called "a stupid way to die", at present there are people being rescued from nz mountains several times a week, and little of it gets into mainstream news. you can look at some of our mountains like Mt taranaki, and there have been 80 people die there and countless injuries and rescues there. countless rescues from the tongariro crossing. someone was rescued last year from there, she was so off course and hypothermic and under clothed it wasnt funny, and it was clear weather, didnt know how to navigate, blindly followed a group going a different route then lost them and lost herself. and on and on the stories go... doesnt take long to get out of your depth if you dont have the experience to extricate yourself from difficult situations. and alot of people on this forum do know how to extricate themselves but it comes through experience and skill and they can make it look easy. bear grylls made the most stupid programe in NZ it was an apalling display of how not to behave in the NZ mountains he made it out to be a fun adventure and as usual he somehow escaped serious injury from a series of stupid stunts
i was on the kepler , a no of people were so panicked by the weather they abandoned their packs to get to the hut faster. your pack is your life boat, thats like getting out of a life boat in the sea.. even our great walks can catch people out. if i see people tramping above the bushline with jeans I dont beat around the bush, i tell them, those jeans could kill them one day... and i'm not polite about it and I make no apology, sometimes tough love is in order, safety first.
I hve experience going off track in NZ but i dont assume that will translate automatically to me being able to go off track in other parts of the world, my first trip to tasmania I stayed on documented tracks that i had read about that were known published walking tracks, i read up on potential dangers, , we dont have much in the way of poisonous animals in NZ so i read up on potential risks in Tas and briefed my girlfriend, be aware you may come across a poisonous snake..
experience is still a relative thing

[JohnStrider]

To put things in a better light, is it worth discussing what *are* the risks for a newbie? I'm aware of the risks of where I hike locally. But I would need to learn more about conditions elsewhere. Per wayno's point I perceive NZ as a far less dangerous environment than my local surrounding, but that is because I am ignorant there. (Of course, this may well be another thread. Not trying to take it off topic.)

I think this is a great idea. Wayno, would you be willing to discuss the risks when it comes to NZ? That is assuming you haven't already in its own thread?

Your previous post is spot on. I'm fairly new to this, but even I know you never going hiking in jeans or anything cotton for that matter. A little bit of care, common sense and extra attention can go a long way.

[wayno]

To put things in a better light, is it worth discussing what *are* the risks for a newbie? I'm aware of the risks of where I hike locally. But I would need to learn more about conditions elsewhere. Per wayno's point I perceive NZ as a far less dangerous environment than my local surrounding, but that is because I am ignorant there. (Of course, this may well be another thread. Not trying to take it off topic.)

I think this is a great idea. Wayno, would you be willing to discuss the risks when it comes to NZ? That is assuming you haven't already in its own thread?

Your previous post is spot on. I'm fairly new to this, but even I know you never going hiking in jeans or anything cotton for that matter. A little bit of care, common sense and extra attention can go a long way.

it depends where you going, the terrain can vary so much, google is your friend, research where you are going, and if you can't find information about people going where you want to go, that should ring alarm bells. because perhaps no one has gone there for a good reason because its dangerous..
the poor chap who perished attempted a difficult canyon without taking any specialist gear with him, normal clothes in water that is near freezing year round. let along the physical dificultites of the gorge.
its unlikely anyone has attempted this gorge let alone made it alive.
its not like there is a wet and dry season in NZ. its not like there is a guaranteed time of year water will be in low flow. it can be random. but from what SAR were saying even the entrance to the gorge had a strong water flow even though it was only calf deep.
what are the potential issues you could strike where you are going? terrain, weather. obstacles... do you have the experience for the issues you will strike? is there anyone in your group that does?
I"d be a duck out of water in the desert. my years of experience in NZ would count for very little and wouldn't translate well.
always do your homework on where you are going even if you have been there before... because there was a bridge across a river last year doesn't mean it will still be there, the track may have been perfect last year but this year could be a mission. we get massive slips in NZ. the dart river track ended up under water after a lake formed from a slip, a new track was cut and the lake keeps rising and eroding it... what you knew last year may not be relevant this year...
I don't tend to go where I cant find a reasonable amount of information about the place I want to travel. by the time I have done a trip, I've often been thinking about it and gathering information for weeks months or years in advance. It's no good getting all excited and deciding in a flood of adrenaline that you want to do a trip... if you feel that way about the trip then research it thoroughly first, then have a think about whether you still really want to do it... trips can be minefields of hidden issues. maybe you need to modify your plans as more information comes to light, a trip is like a sculpture to be formed to fit you and your group.
I've researched plenty of trips that I have never done and probably will never do, I may have intended to do the trips originally but on researching then some information may have put me off. I have researched trips with an open mind about whether I would or wouldn't do it till I was happy with the information I had to make a decision... I've researched trips that I didn't intend to do simply out of interest, and turned around and gone and done the trip after my research...
be flexible and its never too late to back out of a trip or change your plans... well almost never.
yesterdays weather forecast means, nothing, get the latest forecast and don't treat it like the gospel. be prepared for the weather to vary. sometimes the forecast my be completely inaccurate. equip yourself for the time of year and not for a fine weather forecast...
a month after I completed the cascade saddle having waited for perfect weather and good conditions underfoot, snow and ice free on a dry slope, to undertake the trip, a fan of peter Jackson movies went up the track in running shoes, there was snow and ice on the ground, he had no traction and slipped, he went over a bluff and he didn't survive the fall, he was the sixth person to die there in similar circumstances in ten years... theres signs at the bottom warning people not to proceed in unfavourable conditions that people have died there, they've replaced the sign with an even bolder more strongly worded one

[JohnStrider]

Will definitely be picking your brains during this year prior to my intended hike this December/January in the North Island.

I've been sitting on Google researching my route for the last two months. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, weather is unpredictable in NZ and can be hot one minute and freezing cold the next. Impossible to prepare for that, but it does help if you come with gear that is suitable for the conditions you may face.

Or at least that's how I see it.

[wayno]

read all the links in the New Zealand forum threads

[wildwalks]

Hi all. Thanks for the reports about the thread title. I have now updated the title to still be clear but hopefully more respectful. Thanks and keep up the positive conversation about improving safety.
Matt

[north-north-west]

Couple of great posts there, Wayne. With you 100%

[stry]

I didn't notice the original title, but I doubt that anyone would take issue with the amended title. We all respond differently to different things. Pragmatism can be misinterpreted as insensitivity.

NZ can be a dangerous place. I've seen it wild and angry, but not been hurt by it.

Commentary and info from locals like Wayno can only be a positive. First trip I had the benefit of local company, without which I would have had some difficulty making a couple of decisions in such unfamiliar terrain. And yes, I had done heaps of research, was well prepared, and regard myself as being a reasonably good thinker under pressure.

[JohnStrider]

What were the decisions that had to be made, stry?

[wayno]

why are so many dying in aspiring national park
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6473867 ... ional-park

[stry]

What were the decisions that had to be made, stry?

To enter rivers or not would be the most common for me. To scramble/drop down bluffs or not (easy to get bluffed going DOWN and then find you cant get back). Simply getting across a steep gully head or the top of a rock chute. Easy to go for a big slide, even on tussock, and a rapid stop - less spectacular than a free fall and a splat, but same result. Rotten stone - do you punt on having as much contact as possible and hope it holds, or retreat/go a different way ?
Ice on rocks.

It's a great place, but it's not Australia !

[wayno]

RIVER CROSSING
do I cross depends on,
how fast is the current running
how bouldery is the bottom
how deep does it get.
how many of us are there
can I see the bottom..
is there a safe runoff area if I get swept away?
do I have much experience in this sort of crossing
how experienced are the rest of my party in this sort of river crossing
do I use a rope (only for the experienced)
should I wait for the river to drop more.
have I made a thorough check of the area for potential places to cross.
should I keep going and try and find another area to cross.
has the gear in my pack been sealed in waterproof bags
if I'm crossing have I undone the belts on my backpack for quick removal if I get swept away
do I know how to pack float
should I turn around and go back...
do I have enough food if I divert away from the crossing, if not when should I set off my beacon

TRAVERSING ROUGH COUNTRY
how well do I recognise dangerous types of terrain and ground and vegetation underfoot, for steepness. looseness, slipperiness
under what types of weather will the ground and vegetation underfoot become dangerous
how experienced and informed am I traversing the terrain under the weather conditions that will be encountered.
how easy will it be to back track if need be.
be prepared to divert course by hours or days to avoid dangerous terrain
what gear to I need to negotiate the terrain for the conditions.
where can I get information about the current conditions for the route I'm taking and the best weather forecast

[JohnStrider]

Cheers for that, Wayne.

[wayno]

and, how far out of your comfort zone are you. if you're way out of your comfort zone, chances are you're not going to identify risks correctly and or not react correctly when things go wrong if theres no one else more experienced than you to lead the trip.
whats your plan B? don't go anywhere without one...

[wayno]

walking poles are great for helping stability rough, steep terrain and rivers, I usually only use one... two can a pain on rough terrain and narrrow tracks

[JohnStrider]

Debating whether or not to get some for a variety of reasons. Have used long sticks in most of my walks at home and they have been of great help when walking steep ascents. I think I will end up getting a pair and just stow one if need be.

Re: Mt Nguarahoe I have read people saying you need them, while others have said don't bother and just take it easy going down. Thoughts?

[wayno]

also how slippery is the river bottom
how stable is it underfoot in the river bottom.
how cold is it? are my legs going numb,,, the longer youre in a cold river the weaker you will get and the harder it will be to cross. its not uncommon to go numb, inland water is usually a few degrees above freezing in the south island

[stry]

Trekking poles are magic !!! Even a single is a big help when boulder hopping streams, or picking your way over rock falls etc.

If you get a pair that are light and telescope to a reasonably short length, you can tie/strap one onto the outside of your pack on those occasions when you may not want to use both.

[earthgrace]

Thanks, wayno. Exactly the sort of detail I'm keen to learn. I apply a similar sort of analysis to my own terrain.

[whitefang]

My trekking poles were a godsend today descending Mueller Hut Route. I misplaced one step on the scree slope and started to slide and was able to stop myself from falling face first. If I didn't have them Wayno may have been making another post about a death in NZ.

[wayno]

good to hear mate. the odd person has walked off a bluff up there in cloud, japanese lady was never found...