Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli access

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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Son of a Beach » Wed 23 Jan, 2019 8:33 pm

iaindtiler wrote:From the Flora and Fauna assesment;

"The lessee of a historic hut on Hall’s Island, Lake Malbena, in the Walls of Jerusalem
National Park, is investigating the potential for guided tours to the island."

I thought historic Halls hut was outside the proposed lease. And certainly not under lease by Hackett already.
Going through the application for any false information!!


There is a second lease which was gifted to Mr Hackett just last year by the minister - effectively annexing it from the national park. This new lease covers the entire island (apart from the tiny area of the old lease which he obtained from the halls family).

You can see it all illustrated on the map at: Halls Island Map
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 23 Jan, 2019 8:58 pm

In 1982 the Franklin River Dam was all set to go when Bob Hawke was elected Prime Minister. No more dam. It's looking more likely that Labor will win the May 2019 federal election, and if so there may be a reprise of the dam decision.

I've been writing submissions for a great many years. Words that win are those that are yours. A submission that just copies the views of the peak conservation groups is much less powerful than one that expresses your views with passion. Certainly state the TWS, EDO and other peak body facts, but use your words. Say why you love the place. State the information of the proponents and refute the falseness. While it would be nice to do certain things to certain people, be polite, smiling in words as you destroy their arguments.

I've camped opposite the island and like much of the Central Plateau it's a lovely remote place. The picture of the helicopter is sad, annoying and soul destroying.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby peregrinator » Wed 23 Jan, 2019 9:53 pm

Lophophaps wrote:In 1982 the Franklin River Dam was all set to go when Bob Hawke was elected Prime Minister. No more dam. It's looking more likely that Labor will win the May 2019 federal election, and if so there may be a reprise of the dam decision.

I've been writing submissions for a great many years. Words that win are those that are yours. A submission that just copies the views of the peak conservation groups is much less powerful than one that expresses your views with passion. Certainly state the TWS, EDO and other peak body facts, but use your words. Say why you love the place. State the information of the proponents and refute the falseness. While it would be nice to do certain things to certain people, be polite, smiling in words as you destroy their arguments.

I've camped opposite the island and like much of the Central Plateau it's a lovely remote place. The picture of the helicopter is sad, annoying and soul destroying.


Thanks for some good advice.

The helicopter picture is all of what you said. Then add to that the helicopter sound. Another step up from 'annoying".
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Son of a Beach » Thu 24 Jan, 2019 8:51 am

The Halls Island Links page has a list of useful links to various internet resources.

Of particular importance at this stage, there are two links at the bottom which make it trivially easy to send emails to the Central Highlands Council with the recipients and subject already filled in. All you need to do is fill in the email body, and click 'Send'.

You have until 4th February (just over a week away). So get cracking!
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Son of a Beach » Thu 24 Jan, 2019 2:29 pm

Here's an interesting quote from a post on the FlyLife forum's equivalent to this BWA topic:

Jim86 at FlyLife Forums wrote:Daniel Hackett of Riverfly Pty Ltd calls the proposal a 'Standing Camp'. Under the Standing Camp Policy (Parks and Wildlife) it will have; “No significant detraction from the enjoyment or use of the reserve by other people” and be "mostly made of tent style materials"

The proponent has emailed people asking to go to the island said that the island is "closed". The public access plan for the development simply says that they may allow use in the future. If complete exclusion of the public (current situation) and a statement that the public may be allowed to go there (future situation) is not a significant detraction from the enjoyment or use by other people than it is hard to know what is.

The huts are made of cement sheet, steel and celery top pine. Which of these materials are "tent like"?!!!
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Son of a Beach » Thu 24 Jan, 2019 7:03 pm

This has probably already been posted, but in case others have missed it, here are the Wilderness Society’s long list of why this proposal does not meet the Central Highlands Council’s planning code

People should focus on the planning code violations when making submissions to council, as this is their primary concern. Of course, other items are worth mentioning, but this part of the process is all about whether it meets the planning code.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby bushwalker zane » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:41 am

Son of a Beach wrote:This has probably already been posted, but in case others have missed it, here are the Wilderness Society’s long list of why this proposal does not meet the Central Highlands Council’s planning code

People should focus on the planning code violations when making submissions to council, as this is their primary concern. Of course, other items are worth mentioning, but this part of the process is all about whether it meets the planning code.


Absolutely!

Also probably posted, but here is the email address you can send your submission to to at the Central Highlands Council - kbradburn@centralhighlands.tas.gov.au

I am currently doing mine. Letter writing for a better Tasmania.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 26 Jan, 2019 2:27 pm

There's a ghastly plan for huts and horrible infrastructure for the Bogong High Plains and Feathertop region, the Falls Creek to Mount Hotham Alpine Crossing, FHAC. Nothing makes sense. It's similar to the Halls Island proposal in that there will be new huts on crown land in semi-remote places, some of which will be serviced by helicopters. Parks Victoria were economical with the truth, and the fools in a private company that prepared the reports have no idea what they were on about. I'm still involved with this, attempting to get answers, but PV prevaricate and tell porkies.

One aspect I looked at very closely was the return on investment. The people pushing this had very suss maths and did not understand economic modelling. To give you an idea, the first report said it would cost about $20 million and the second report said about $33 million. The use figures were wrong – they said 4000 people estimated, I proved that the correct figure was close to zero.

The economics are further worsened by another aspect that was not mentioned in any reports in depth. If the proposal goes ahead then many current users will stay away, leading to much less spending in local communities. Like Halls Island, the proponents hope for small numbers of rich people, but the maths does not add up. It's far better to have a lot of people each spending less than the rich people. This is a very basic aspect of business management – have diverse income streams so that when one ceases there are others. Better to have a million customers spending $10 each than 10 customers spending $1 million each.

Further, the less affluent are going there because they want to, attracted by the natural character of the land. Compare this to a small number of people coming due to a commercial enterprise. Less affluent people like me will go there if the place is like it is now, no need to prod. But what if the market for the rich turns, or the company ceases to trade?

I totally demolished the purported economics, showing that rather than the 7:1 return the proponents say will result from the FHAC (Invest $1, get $7 back) the return is closer to 0.7:1 (spend a dollar, get back 70 cents).

I have not read all the Halls Island information but I cannot find an detailed economic analysis. If there is one, could someone please post a link or details?

In December 2019 the World Fly Fishing Championship will be in Tasmania. The cost for this will be minimal to government, and there will be a significant capital injection at local and state level. The return on investment is big, far bigger than the Halls Island proposal. There was something similar at Falls Creek. There was a bike race, lots of riders, support staff, family, friends, from memory some 3000 people each spending $125. The cost to local council was about $20,000.

I'd like to see figures for the fly fishing championship, bushwalkers, angers, anyone that uses the area now.

There's also the reputational loss, something I detailed in my FHAC submission. If Halls island goes ahead it will partly destroy Tassie's well-deserved reputation as a place to visit for remote trips. Even those touching the edges such as at Cradle Mountain may think twice if the reputation drops. It takes a long time to build a reputation, and this can be lost in an instant with one ill-advised action. Mr Joyce knows about this.

I'm deeply concerned about the aesthetics of the proposal. However, if the economics can be found to be flawed then there's more of a chance of success at having this proposal tipped into the deepest part of Lake Malbeena. Marginal Liberal electorates may have their member more amenable to opposing the proposal. The Central Highlands Council may listen to economic reasoning.

A small point. The huts in the designer's pictures seem to be mighty close to trees. The Central Plateau is under bushfire threat right now. Do the huts meet the relevant bushfire code?
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Warin » Sat 26 Jan, 2019 7:24 pm

Lophophaps wrote:A small point. The huts in the designer's pictures seem to be mighty close to trees. The Central Plateau is under bushfire threat right now. Do the huts meet the relevant bushfire code?


The BAL FZ? (FZ = flame zone)I not think so...
For example I think there is only one set of windows approved for that - all the others have to have automated shutters, and then the shutters have to meet BAL FZ...
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Son of a Beach » Sun 27 Jan, 2019 1:52 pm

Think of your favourite remote camp sites in any of our national parks. I know that I have a few that I use regularly. Some of them may be used by nobody else as far as I know, and others I'm sure are used by others, although I've never seen other people there.

If this is the new precedent, then what is to stop any (or all!) of your favourite remote camp sites being purchased by (or gifted to!) a private developer, and you and your children and friend and family being banned from them forever.

If the current situation can be repeated, then in theory, it is possible for me to be legally banned from ever visiting any of my favourite camp sites again. I will never be able to share each of them with my kids (thank goodness I've already taken them to one such place already).
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 28 Jan, 2019 6:23 pm

I'm attempting to write a submission but there's a big problem - there's too many contentious points. I have seen a lot of proposals for wild places but this one takes the award for the most breaches. I'll raise a few and cite TWS. It's important to say that you support TWS, AAT, EDO or the like, and use your own words.

I have a heap of Halls Island information, all gleaned from the above posts. Thank you for posting the details, very helpful. The following may have been raised above and if so my apologies. There's too many posts to check. There's a document dated 21 June 2010 from Riverfly "Western Lakes campouts – sustainable eco-tourism into the future". There are some interesting words:

"Our application is currently with the Tasmanian Parks and Wildlife Service, and is being assessed through a process called the Reserve Activity Assessment. This assessment ensures that all aspects of the World Heritage Management Plan are met by the proposal ...

"1 We will not be applying to fly customers into the Western Lakes. We believe that one of the greatest parts of the Western Lakes fishery is the remoteness, and the need to use your own energy and initiative to get there. This remoteness and solitude is further protected by the WHA Management Plan, which actually prohibits the use of helicopters to take anglers in/out of the WHA.

"2. We will not be building a private hut or lodge! One of the great enjoyments of our Western Lakes campouts is
indeed the camping. In a world full of stuffy-office blocks and hotel rooms filled with recycled air, we can see the
value and appeal of sleeping under the canvas. As such, our camp will remain as just that – a tent camp utilizing 2-
3 man canvas tents for accommodation. To ensure these values are protected in the Western Lakes, the WHA
actually prohibits the building of private huts or lodges in the World Heritage Area."

*** ends

This is far from their current position of 240 flights a year, building huts and more. What has changed?
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby north-north-west » Mon 28 Jan, 2019 6:33 pm

Lophophaps wrote:This is far from their current position of 240 flights a year, building huts and more. What has changed?


They are no longer lying (about those two points).
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby rcaffin » Mon 28 Jan, 2019 6:33 pm

There is a second lease which was gifted to Mr Hackett just last year by the minister - effectively annexing it from the national park.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 28 Jan, 2019 8:02 pm

The benefits of a tertiary education are still apparent.
I've opened an old-fashioned tea shop,
A regular palace of sin.
The principle girl is my grandma.
My God how the money rolls in.


I'm attempting to quantify the economics of the region, but cannot find any figures. There are two towns on the Central Plateau, Miena and Bronte, and a slew of shacks on the Marlborough Highway between them. This suggests that there are perhaps hundreds or thousands of regular visitors, enough to warrant the towns and shacks. Does anyone know how many people visit or stay at these places?

I'm also after OLT figures. There are 9000 people a year paying $250 or so for the permit plus the park pass plus staying before and after plus sundry local purchases. A figure of $4-600 a person seems to be about right, which is $3.5-5.5 million spent locally. There's also hordes of tourists at Cradle and Lake St Clair, bumping my local spend guesstimate to $7-10 million a year. Can someone please direct me to some better figures or comment on the veracity of the above?

I'm starting my submission with economics, how the wild nature of the region attracts. I will then posit that if the proposal goes ahead, these economics are at risk. Further, there will be reputational loss. No longer will visitors sing the praises of the WOJ wilderness. They will be complaining about being under a flight path.

There's another option. Helicopters must stay 4000 feet above the highest peaks and not land, dropping pax by parachute or zip line.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby tastrax » Mon 28 Jan, 2019 8:08 pm

Cheers - Phil

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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Son of a Beach » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 6:34 am

We’ve already seen that the Goverment are going to extreme measures to get this development happening. No doubt with a lot of prompting from big business backers.

So can’t help but wonder if this is part of the same coordinated plan: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-28/t ... s/10755796
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby north-north-west » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 7:44 am

Lophophaps wrote:I'm attempting to quantify the economics of the region, but cannot find any figures. There are two towns on the Central Plateau, Miena and Bronte, and a slew of shacks on the Marlborough Highway between them. This suggests that there are perhaps hundreds or thousands of regular visitors, enough to warrant the towns and shacks. Does anyone know how many people visit or stay at these places?


Miena is like all the small communities around the Great Lake area -it started as a shack site for shooters and boaters and fishers (I recall our family going up there when I was a kid,with a friend of my mother's). There is a pub/lodge and a lot more shacks and larger dwellings that are used on a more permanent basis. Bronte is a smaller version of the same thing although I'm not sure what's left of any business initiative since the pub was burnt down.
There used to be cattle and sheep grazing up that way - mainly around Liawenee-Barren Plains-Shannon area. Still a lot of old fences all the way from the end of the Great Pine Tier to Pine Lake and Adams Peak. I think it was never particularly profitable.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby tastrax » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 8:34 am

You can get some data on these areas from ABS quick stats - its from 2016 but that is the latest data Just use the search function for the town/area

http://quickstats.censusdata.abs.gov.au ... endocument
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Thornbill » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 8:38 am

Lophophaps wrote: If the proposal goes ahead then many current users will stay away, leading to much less spending in local communities.


I think the economics is a very important point to raise with the Council. I included this argument in my submission made last week. The potential negative impact on local communities should (hopefully, maybe naively) be a significant consideration to Councillors.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby bogholesbuckethats » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 10:36 am

I would encourage you all to also write to federal MPs if you haven't done so already. Due to the feedback I have received, I believe a number of labor MPs, including the shadow minister for the environment and water, aren't too keen on this proposal. There is a pretty good chance that they will be running the show in a few months time and should be made aware that this is a big issue for voters.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 11:30 am

Good thinking. The shadow minister is the Hon. Tony Burke
https://www.tonyburke.com.au/contact/
Keep it very short and he may read it. Stress economics and Mr Burke can use this against the Liberal Party. Briefly cite the TWS points about breaching TWWHA requirements and say that it seems that the minister supports these breaches.

If there's enough questioning of the Liberal's economic credentials then they may reverse their decision.

Write to the Minister for the Environment, The Hon Melissa Price MP.
https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Mem ... tent-panel
Throw economics at her and also the fact that the vast majority of people oppose the development. Briefly cite the TWS points about breaching TWWHA requirements. Ask if she supports these breaches.

Can anyone with a bit of time find out the voting results for Tasmanian state and federal electorates at the last election?
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Thornbill » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 11:42 am

Lophophaps wrote:Can anyone with a bit of time find out the voting results for Tasmanian state and federal electorates at the last election?


Should be able to get detailed Federal election results here: https://www.aec.gov.au/elections/federal_elections/Stats_CDRom.htm
and Tasmanian state election results here: https://tec.tas.gov.au/House_of_Assembly_Elections/StateElection2018/Results/Results.html
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby johnw » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 2:07 pm

I agree with Lophophaps and others about the best approach for drafting a submission to Central Highlands Council.
For those of us who may not be able to do justice to that level of detail before the 4th February deadline, The Wilderness Society has today emailed a draft submission template which can (and should) be customised with your own words, and any relevant data you can provide:
Email a representation to the Central Highlands Council to ensure your objection to private commercial helicopters and luxury huts is before them when councillors make their decision
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 2:57 pm

I'm somewhat busy with competing priorities, and attempting to master hundreds of pages of information for my submission, so if somebody could prepare a summary of the electoral aspects it would be nice for later tactics.

See this
https://www.environment.gov.au/system/f ... 181005.pdf
It is 174 pages of FOI, lots of facts. I may make a list of the entities that oppose the development.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby potato » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 2:58 pm

johnw wrote:I agree with Lophophaps and others about the best approach for drafting a submission to Central Highlands Council.
For those of us who may not be able to do justice to that level of detail before the 4th February deadline, The Wilderness Society has today emailed a draft submission template which can (and should) be customised with your own words, and any relevant data you can provide:
Email a representation to the Central Highlands Council to ensure your objection to private commercial helicopters and luxury huts is before them when councillors make their decision


Thanks for that and to everyone who has made a submission.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 3:27 pm

The FOI submissions refer to 2018/8177 Wild Drake Pty Ltd. Can someone advise of the relationship between Wild Drake and Riverfly?
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby tastrax » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 8:56 pm

Lophophaps wrote:See this
https://www.environment.gov.au/system/f ... 181005.pdf
It is 174 pages of FOI, lots of facts. I may make a list of the entities that oppose the development.


This link seems to be broken
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 9:12 pm

The link was from my browser. This is from the email I was sent
https://www.environment.gov.au/system/f ... 181005.pdf.
I've read the first 300 pages, 115 submissions, and all are against. Some go into great scientific detail, more than TWS and EDO.
While this is for the April 2018 proposal, it's very similar to the current one that is before the local council. Further, the number of people from all these peak bodies is amazing. The numbers will move politicians, votes.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby bogholesbuckethats » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 9:15 pm

Lophophaps wrote:The FOI submissions refer to 2018/8177 Wild Drake Pty Ltd. Can someone advise of the relationship between Wild Drake and Riverfly?


I believe RiverFly 1864 is just the name of the guided fly fishing business operated by Wild Drake Pty Ltd.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 30 Jan, 2019 9:28 pm

Thanks. I cannot get the URL to paste, so I have broken it in two
https://www.environment.gov.au/
system/files/FOI%20181005.pdf.
Might work when joined.
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