AAWT Planning

A forum for discussing the Australian Alps Walking Track. This is a 655 km long track from Walhalla (Vic) to Tharwa (ACT)

Re: AAWT Planning

Postby walkon » Wed 20 May, 2015 11:23 pm

Suz wrote:Walkon, are you saying I take the blue pen line from grey mare to happy a hut? (From the pic)

Yeah basically it. I'd go through the Y in Grey, N in the Plains, C in Jacks and last on the creek H in Happy. The topo and the ground when your there will lead you. Away from the water the grass is shorter, more tussocks and long grass by the Creek.

Suz wrote:Ergh, Walkon I looked up prices at the General! You and I live in different price zones ARGH! Bushwalker99 thanks, I have emailed Leeton to see what the dealio is.

Back to my plan revision now.


Not really, I'm not jet setting around the globe like some people are. Not mentioning any names :) it's just priorities really. After just meeting my wife for the first time in a month a few days previously. It was nice to spend time with her somewhere a bit warmer and more comfortable than a tent for a bit.

Suz, despite the functionality & practicality of using a mobile phone on a long distance journey. How are your navigation skills? Are you more inclined to heavily use the gps in unknown areas or are you good with a compass and the limited maps from chapmans book. What sort of terrain do you normally need help with in navigating Are you aware of the effect that cold temps have in reducing battery life considerably and how have you planned to manage this if the device you are using is heavy on batteries anyway.
There are three people I know who have broken a phone on the aawt, two from this forum, who would have liked to think that they were careful with their gear. Most dedicated gps units are relatively robust whereas mobiles aren't. I'm not critiquing the brand of mobile just questioning the idea as its intended use.
Cheers Walkon

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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby madmacca » Thu 21 May, 2015 1:42 pm

Bushwalker99 wrote:Hi Suz,
When we walked the AAWT last November we stayed at Leeton Lodge at Hotham. Very good deal and very comfortable. We had a few people and they may not do a deal for one person but if they have others staying there you could be in luck. Worth a try.


Yeah, I stayed at Leeton as well as the most reasonably priced option at Hotham. Perhaps contact them in September when they are thinking about their off-season bookings.

For Thredbo, the YHA is probably the best budget option. They will also hold a package for you, meaning that is one less drop you have to retreive afterwards.

The other plus about spending overnight in a resort is that over several days, body moisture slowly builds up in your sleeping bag, reducing loft and performance - over a 50 day trip this can be a real issue. A night in a real bed allows you the chance to air it out. A sunny zero day could allow you to do this on the trail, but planned zero days do not always coincide with sunny weather.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Mark F » Thu 21 May, 2015 4:59 pm

On the map front I would suggest:
If using the Victorian 1:50k series you can avoid purchasing a heap of NSW 1:25K maps. You will need these Victorian maps (almost nothing on the Toolong sheet though)
Willis (Vic 1:50k) also covers from the border to the Pilot (NSW 1:50k map Suggan Buggan)
Tom Groggin (Vic 1:50k) also covers from Thredbo south to The Pilot (NSW 1:25K Davies Plain, Chimney Ridge, Tom Groggin),
Geehi (Vic 1:50k) covers Thredbo north to just below Mawsons hut (NSW 1:25k Perisher Valley, Geehi Dam, Toolong Range)
Toolong (Vic 1:50k) continues the Geehi coverage north to above Mackeys Hut (NSW 1:25k Jagungal)

Do be aware that the detail of these maps is fine but misses naming things like Mt Jagungal and shows some huts that were destroyed by fire some years ago. If doing this I would suggest checking and annotating the vic paper maps with the NSW Six site (maps.six.nsw.gov.au). A nice thing about Victorian maps is that they provide a small overlap with adjoining sheets unlike NSW maps and they also show the AAWT but may miss a few small reroutings..

I would also suggest that you could work quite adequately with Chapmans maps from Mackeys Hut through to Murray Gap without other maps.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Fri 22 May, 2015 12:14 pm

walkon wrote:Suz, despite the functionality & practicality of using a mobile phone on a long distance journey. How are your navigation skills?

Currently non-existent, but I'm capable of learning! I will get maps with for my Kungsleden trip which should be easy to follow (for the first week at least), and try and train myself in easy territory, the track becomes increasingly untravelled over time, should make for a good gradual introduction to map reading. In a way I am inclined to use a GPS when necessary, maps as a back up because I think they would consume more time in reading them to figure out the way, and frankly - just following the path when it's there :D I have never used either maps or GPS on hikes before, because I've never found them necessary - but on the AAWT it's clearly needed. So, thus far, I don't know what suits me best. I am aware of the effect of temp on batteries. I plan on having some sort of paper maps in conjunction with either an iphone or proper GPS. Just nutting out what combo will be a combo of effective and cheapest / lightest.

walkon wrote:There are three people I know who have broken a phone on the aawt, two from this forum

Ok, thanks - this is very helpful - I will defo buy a robust case then. No way I'm dropping and breaking $1400.

madmacca wrote:I stayed at Leeton as well as the most reasonably priced option at Hotham. Perhaps contact them in September when they are thinking about their off-season bookings.
That is what they told me to do too :) Staying at Thredbo YHA too and yep they said they are okay with holding my food box. Thanks for the advice on airing the sleeping bag. Will do that.[/quote]

Thanks MarkF for maps to purchase. Will put a notice in the 'market' section for WTB a 2nd hand set ;)
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby madmacca » Sat 23 May, 2015 1:49 pm

Given the Chapman book has a 1:50K strip map of the entire route, purchasing 1:50K maps seems redundant. It is important to have maps of escape routes and the like, but 1:100K is probably enough for this purpose, and a smaller number of maps.

When looking for a case, get one that has a bar or loop onto which you can tie a lanyard. A case does protect it from the shock of drops, but one that prevents it from hitting the ground even if it slips out of your hand is even better.

The screen on a phone and the GPS chipset are major power drains, and if you going to be using the phone as your primary navigation device and using it all the time, you need to think about powerbanks/solar panels to recharge your phone several times between access to 240v mains. A dedicated GPS is probably more energy efficient.

If however, you areprimaroly using the maps to follow the trail, and just getting a GPS fix in a whiteout or occasionally to confirm a specific track junction, then the phone probably is the lighter and cheaper option.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Mark F » Sat 23 May, 2015 4:33 pm

One of the simplest ways to try out your phone with maps etc is to download Avenza PDF Maps (android and ios available) - free. Purchase a pdf map for the area you will next walk in or just the area where you live and try it out with gps turned on.
Both Victorian and NSW map sheets are available for all of both states.
For NSW buy from shop.lpi.nsw.gov.au for $5.55 per sheet
For Victoria http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/forestry-and ... topoonline $4 to $8 per sheet.

I find these maps (exactly the same as the paper versions) far better than any of the gps specific mapping other than the need to change maps when you get to the edge of a map. If you want the entire state then these become prohibitively expensive but you buy them as you need them.
You can view them without the gps on or the gps can show your position etc on the map. If you are not needing a trace of your route then these and your phone (with Chapmans book as backup) will cover you for the AAWT. You can also easily view these in all their glory on any computer with Adobe Acrobat Reader and move them from computer to computer etc.

I have mucked about with several systems and I decided that this was the simplest and most effective system for me. I use a Samsung Galaxy S5 and get about 3 days normal usage with gps out of a battery charge when I am turning the phone on about once an hour to check position and study the route ahead with the occasional section of walking with the phone on and navigating on screen.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Sun 24 May, 2015 9:18 am

Okay thanks guys. I'll keep seeing how I go with the GPS apps and battery usage then I guess make a call from there about what back up paper maps to have. So maybe I'll get 1:100k maps then, but I'll wait to see.

I have just purchased online a phone case that is lanyard compatible :)
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby weeds » Sun 24 May, 2015 9:51 pm

I'm assuming there is not much of a canopy from the trees on the AAWT??.....my old ETREX H was next to useless on the weekend at Lamington National Park
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby north-north-west » Thu 28 May, 2015 2:53 am

weeds wrote:I'm assuming there is not much of a canopy from the trees on the AAWT??.....

It varies, but there are few places where it's an issue. The forest on the south side of the Baw Baw is often a tricky place to get a signal.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby madmacca » Thu 28 May, 2015 10:17 am

north-north-west wrote:
weeds wrote:I'm assuming there is not much of a canopy from the trees on the AAWT??.....

It varies, but there are few places where it's an issue. The forest on the south side of the Baw Baw is often a tricky place to get a signal.


That would make sense, with the mountain ash canopy being taller and thicker than snow gums, and I think GPS satellite orbits are more equatorial than polar.

Although personally, I had more issues getting an accurate signal on the north face of Baw Baw than the south. Although atmospheric conditions and cloud cover can alter reception on different days even in the same location.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby madmacca » Thu 28 May, 2015 10:18 am

weeds wrote:I'm assuming there is not much of a canopy from the trees on the AAWT??.....my old ETREX H was next to useless on the weekend at Lamington National Park


Steep and narrow gullies are probably more of an issue than tree cover on the AAWT.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby jobell » Fri 12 Jun, 2015 8:30 pm

Hi Suz,
I'm also planning a NOBO through hike on the AAWT this coming summer - my friend and I are planning on starting from Wahalla on 20 November 2015. I costed Leeton Lodge last summer at $45 but didn't note at that time if that was share accommodation or what at the time. Obviously will need to recost for this coming summer season but I'm imagining it shouldn't be too far from that figure. All the best for your walk.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Mon 15 Jun, 2015 7:33 am

Thanks Joanne :) Good to know! I will defo try and stay there. Might even see you on the trail!
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Mon 28 Sep, 2015 8:07 am

hey guys,

so i'm delaying my walk til Autumn. Obviously water is a bigger issue at that time of the year, does anyone know how you can keep track of the availability of water at known sources before heading on trail?

Also, is the beginning of March a good or bad time to start (from Walhalla)?
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 28 Sep, 2015 11:50 am

A lot depends on how dry summer is. In general, creeks will be drier, but you know this. It seems to me that you should mark water in three categories:
1 Totally reliable, major creeks and rivers.
2 Probably will be okay, depends on weather and how many people use the tanks
3 Marginal, cannot be relied on, good if they are there, if not, still okay.
Plan on the first two, may get the third.

You could ask here. Mmm, maybe a thread devoted to AAWT water is indicated, with parties posting details as they complete the AAWT or sections of it. Posts would only detail the second two categories above. What do people think about this AAWT water thread? Leave that with me, I'll see if it can be a sticky thread.

Starting in March means hitting the bigger peaks in early to mid-April, getting on for a higher chance of bad weather. Provided you have the gear, are prepared to wait out bad weather and have escape routes, I think it's viable.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Mon 28 Sep, 2015 7:27 pm

Oh that's well thought out - thanks lophophaps.

Do you think I should plan on starting earlier then?
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 28 Sep, 2015 8:11 pm

Suz wrote:Oh that's well thought out - thanks lophophaps.

Do you think I should plan on starting earlier then?


This is a tricky question to answer. You said 50 days, allow five rest days, so over 660 kilometres as per the Chapman route (not the official AAWT but good enough for most) this is 15 kilometres/day. This will be less on hard parts and up to, say 20 kilometres in flatter parts. Side trips may add another few days, so the average needs to be 17 kilomtres/day, or less rest days. You should have rest days as a buffer against running late or just needing a rest. Plan the rest days at the food dumps and/or reliable water.

So you need reasonably reliable water every 10-20 kilometres. Will this be so starting in early March? I think it should work out okay. The only place that may need care is the Barries. Plan to arrive at the tanks with enogh to get you to the next water - tanks may be dry.

Start at the end and work back. You want to be over Jagungal before the chance of bad weather is too high. Beyond that the rains may come but there's heaps of huts, good water, and it's too low for snow. twice I've been caught on the Main Range at Easter-Anzac time by snow, once being badly battered and once getting out on an escape route just before a major dump of snow; the weather looked bad. Starting in early March will see you over Jagungal by mid-April, and this should be okay. The heat of summer at the start will slowly diminish until around the Bogong High Plains.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 8:33 am

Okay, thanks! Maybe I'll leave just a little bit sooner then to be more safe, I will look again at my plan. I don't like walking in the heat, but better than being caught out in a snow storm. Might have to do some water drops too but that's ok. Only other concerns are - navigating well and bush fires.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 10:50 am

Suz, this is hard to balance: heat in Walhalla or blizzards on the Main Range. The weather should be reasonably kind for an early March departure. I think that you have to get used to the fact that for 50 days of alpine walking conditions will range from hot (but not for as long or as high as mid-January) to wet and perhaps even snow. As I said, once you clear Jagungal the terrain is lower, so while the weather may be unhappy you're unlikely to get snow. Of course they got snow in southern Queensland a few months ago, so who knows what will happen. If your navigation is good you should not get further north than Newcastle.

You must be able to navigate. It's not just a question of following a route, as you must be able to make a judgement as to which pad or spur to follow. Learn about things such as handrails and offsets.

The bushfire risk is lower from March. Have fallback plans, know what to do and keep this very clear. On any number of trips matters have gone astray and I've implemented fallback plans without conscious thought. I just knew. Have a list of "What ifs" for the entire walk. Writing them down will assist on such a long journey. Having 1:100 maps will give escape routes.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Mark F » Tue 29 Sep, 2015 7:03 pm

You may be slightly better off in autumn to go n-s so that the main range is passed in the second week of the trip but it is really in the hands of Huey as to whether you will strike snow. On my n-s attempt to 2005-06 I got snowed in for a day at Grey Mare in a blizzard that dumped 30cm on 21-22 December. I felt it unwise to do the main range the following day and so did the endorsed route via Munyang and the road. If I had a couple of days extra food it would have cleared.

One of the reasons long routes like the AAWT are difficult is the uncertainty of the weather etc and you need sufficient experience to make good judgement calls when conditions are bad. Another issue you need to consider is the various river crossings which may require you to wait for levels to drop. This almost became an issue on my trip with high but luckily just manageable water levels in all the crossings through to Thredbo.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 12:33 pm

Okay guys. I know it's a big undertaking and yep the navigation and weather - judgement calls are my weak point. I mean anyone can put one foot in front of the other and endure shoulder and hip pain. I sort of worry that i'm biting off more than i can chew but i need to challenge myself or whats the point of living?

It is really expensive but I'm thinking of taking a 2 day survival course in navigation on the central coast…it's like about $400-500 tho. Is that a terrible waste of money? Please comment opinionatedly!
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby aloftas » Wed 30 Sep, 2015 1:28 pm

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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby madmacca » Thu 01 Oct, 2015 12:56 am

Suz wrote:Okay guys. I know it's a big undertaking and yep the navigation and weather - judgement calls are my weak point. I mean anyone can put one foot in front of the other and endure shoulder and hip pain. I sort of worry that i'm biting off more than i can chew but i need to challenge myself or whats the point of living?

It is really expensive but I'm thinking of taking a 2 day survival course in navigation on the central coast…it's like about $400-500 tho. Is that a terrible waste of money? Please comment opinionatedly!


Join a Bushwalking Club that has navigation skills day/weekend coming up. WAAAY cheaper.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 01 Oct, 2015 4:37 am

Challenge is good. Howver, one must be prepared, and planning six months ahead is indicated. My strong view is that navigation cannot be learned or enhanced much in a weekend. There are simply too many sorts of what you may come across, and skill for these is best learned over months or years. My BW club regularly had navigation instruction days and this was backed up with punters taking over at the sharp end, not just navigation but leading. It's easy to follow, harder to be in front.

I suggest that you find a book on bush navigation and learn the following:
* magnetic declination
* handrails
* offset
* time (knowing how fast you walk in different conditions)
* walking a bearing using a series of markers
* catching features
* attack point
* obstacle negotiation
* back bearings
I started writing the list from memory and then looked at the book Bushwalking and ski touring leadership, arguably the best book of its kind in Australia.

Once you understand the concepts then you can put them into practice in the field. I see no point whatsoever paying to learn that which can acquired at much less cost. Similarly, as Madmacca says, join a BW club. Go on as many trips as possible and attempt the navigation yourself. Then see if you can navigate for a few hours. Then lead a day walk, then a weekend walk. Repeat. Experienced club leaders have so much to give and a beginner will pick up skills.

Nothing is gained without effort, and the more effort that is put in the better it will be for you. When you have the skills with a few navigation and leadership runs on the board it'll be easier to admit that you are bushed and take action. On one memorable ski trip that I was leading - mostly fog for nine days - I said that Big Hill was Mount Howitt. Oops. Sacked as leader for a while, with some justification. In the next saddle the rest of the party had the map out and I caught up. Teensy prob: the map was upside down. My replacements would have sent us the wrong way. I got my leadership job back. LOL. Howitt to Mac Springs in whiteout was hard, managed. Learn to look out for such things.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby madmacca » Fri 02 Oct, 2015 8:14 pm

Suz wrote:hey guys,

so i'm delaying my walk til Autumn. Obviously water is a bigger issue at that time of the year, does anyone know how you can keep track of the availability of water at known sources before heading on trail?

Also, is the beginning of March a good or bad time to start (from Walhalla)?


A good starting point is that Chapman's book generally mentions whether water is reliable, usually, or sometimes available at a particular source.

It is worth giving Parks Victoria a call shortly before leaving about the condition of tanks in the Barry Mountains.

Another thing is to post on these forums requesting any recent experience - the more specific you are in identifying the particular sources you are looking for information on, the more likely you are to get a useful response. Posting after the Australia Day long weekend would be good timing. It is really only the Hotham-Rumpff section that is an issue, as this is a ridgetop walk.

The plus side of going in March is that while some water sources may be dry, the cooler weather means you will not be using nearly as much water. On a long climb on a hot summer's day, you can sometimes need to carry 5 litres plus, but in March, 3 litres is likely to last you all day.

Mark F's suggestion of a N-S routing in March is a good one. But even with S-N, while you may have to wait out some bad weather, you are not going to be post-holing in thigh deep snow for kilometres on end.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 10:33 am

okay thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions. I will save my $400 for something else then. I have begun reading a free online version of Bushwalking and ski touring leadership and it's very good - thanks Lop. I am just in the process of joining a club too but they don't seem to offer any navigation skills trips. Shame. I understand magnetic declination in theory (i think) but just have never had to use it in practice. It appears there are many other things i need to learn too tho.

If I have to carry less water because it's cooler that's a big bonus to me, I hadn't thought of that. I drink a lot. Thanks macca. I will call Vic Parks too before setting off, good idea.

A N-S trip is probably more sensible but I would like to finish at Tharwa because everyone says the main range is the best bit and I would like to save it for near the end :)

So to build skills and confidence in navigating - i am thinking about doing some off trail walking near(ish) my home and only relying on map and compass. I will take my precious phone too tho in case i need its help ha ha - just as a back up.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 11:57 am

Madmacca, good point about using less water.

Mt Kosciuszko with the hoards is not a high point. If you can camp on Ramsheads and clear Kosciuszko by about 9 am you'll miss most of the masses. Once you pass Twynum the numbers and terrain drop, although there are still bumps. That said, the section from South Ramshead to Twynum, Dicky Cooper and Gungartan is brilliant. From Gungartan - surely a must-see - to Jagungal is lovely open walking on mainly high treeless ridges, and is better than the official route. Okay, you miss Valentines Falls and Grey Mare Hut, but that's all. Taking in extra climbing off-track close to the official route is still the AAWT. Close enough.

Reach Mackays Hut by early- to mid-April and there will be minimal chance of being hit by serious snow. Also, From Mackays Hut there are many huts, maybe every second day at most. These are good to hide in if the weather is bad. There are hardly any huts so close to each other except on the Bogong High Plains. If going N-S that time of year you are more likely to get bad weather from about McDonald-Skene.

You will hopefully find that while the club may not have formal navigation and/or leadership instruction, these are available on an informal basis. If there is no formal or informal way to develop leaders, how will there be more club leaders? A mirror compass with a magnetic offset will fix this aspect easily, Just make sure that the mag bit is 11 degrees or so clockwise of the true north. I adjusted mine the wrong way at first: 22 degrees out, a puzzlement.

In due course you will need a PLB, so why not buy one now? There are threads on PLBs, and some can be found second-hand from reputable outlets for a lower price.

If your employer gives you time off for good behaviour, think about spending a week or so around Jagungal. This suggestion may have been made before, and is still valid. See how your navigation goes, fine-tune the kit and menu, and become familiar with parts of the walk. Also, when putting in food drops, see if you can go on the AAWT for a short sojourn. Even 30 minutes each way is enough. The sense of brief familiarity will be good.
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Suz » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 4:05 pm

Lophophaps wrote:Madmacca, good point about using less water.

Mt Kosciuszko with the hoards is not a high point. If you can camp on Ramsheads and clear Kosciuszko by about 9 am you'll miss most of the masses. Once you pass Twynum the numbers and terrain drop, although there are still bumps. That said, the section from South Ramshead to Twynum, Dicky Cooper and Gungartan is brilliant. From Gungartan - surely a must-see - to Jagungal is lovely open walking on mainly high treeless ridges, and is better than the official route. Okay, you miss Valentines Falls and Grey Mare Hut, but that's all. Taking in extra climbing off-track close to the official route is still the AAWT. Close enough. yep planning on this route, ramsheads and gungartan both :)

Reach Mackays Hut by early- to mid-April and there will be minimal chance of being hit by serious snow. Also, From Mackays Hut there are many huts, maybe every second day at most. These are good to hide in if the weather is bad. There are hardly any huts so close to each other except on the Bogong High Plains. If going N-S that time of year you are more likely to get bad weather from about McDonald-Skene.good to know they are there, hope i don't have to use one. i know one of them is named after one of my mother's bridge friend's father - because he died there. :(

You will hopefully find that while the club may not have formal navigation and/or leadership instruction, these are available on an informal basis. If there is no formal or informal way to develop leaders, how will there be more club leaders? A mirror compass with a magnetic offset will fix this aspect easily, Just make sure that the mag bit is 11 degrees or so clockwise of the true north. I adjusted mine the wrong way at first: 22 degrees out, a puzzlement. yep i'll get one and learn it by myself if i have to…not sure how hard core the club i'm joining is, in fact i suspect its pretty soft core

In due course you will need a PLB, so why not buy one now? There are threads on PLBs, and some can be found second-hand from reputable outlets for a lower price.got one ;)

If your employer gives you time off for good behaviour, think about spending a week or so around Jagungal. This suggestion may have been made before, and is still valid. See how your navigation goes, fine-tune the kit and menu, and become familiar with parts of the walk. Also, when putting in food drops, see if you can go on the AAWT for a short sojourn. Even 30 minutes each way is enough. The sense of brief familiarity will be good.thinking about this - but feel i should 'save' it for when i'm actually on the track


Does anyone happen to have a GPX file of the complete AAWT that I could download?
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby madmacca » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 6:05 pm

Suz wrote:Does anyone happen to have a GPX file of the complete AAWT that I could download?


http://www.johnevans.id.au/Pages/KC/KCAAWT.html
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Re: AAWT Planning

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 03 Oct, 2015 9:32 pm

Suz wrote:yep i'll get one and learn it by myself if i have to…not sure how hard core the club i'm joining is, in fact i suspect its pretty soft core


To a certain extent navigation can be learned from a book or on your own, but it's better to be with an experienced person. This is where the club will hopefully assist. The pic below is how the offset should look, magnetic to the the right of true.
Compass.JPG
Compass.JPG (125.52 KiB) Viewed 8971 times


Suz wrote:thinking about this - but feel i should 'save' it for when i'm actually on the track


That's a valid point. However, I greatly look forward to visiting places I have been to before - it feels nice to be back home. Also, if the weather is bad on the second visit you may recall features, and you get an idea on the first trip of your speed. When you've been bushwalking for maybe ten years it gets a tad hard to find new places; I don't bother, and go whithersoever I choose.
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