Should I buy the guidebook

A forum for discussing the Australian Alps Walking Track. This is a 655 km long track from Walhalla (Vic) to Tharwa (ACT)

Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 12:43 am

How useful /important do you think this guidebook would be for this trail for me:
(I mean the new edition of the book by John Chapman, Siseman and Monica sorry i can't remember all the names properly.)

a) travelling alone
b) somewhat experienced walker - 10 day hike on the south coast track of tassie with others from bushwalking club, 5 day hike in ladakh with donkey and guide, numerous solo bike camping tours.
c) comfortable in the bush but not from interstate.
d) not a lot of compass work but i am bringing an etrex 20 and a compass and probably one map.

My concern about the guide is the weight of it. I don't think it will be too much use if i don't bring it with me. For some reason i thought they were selling it also as a ebook which would have been good.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Mark F » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 2:34 am

You won't get very far without the guidebook if you only are bringing one map. The NSW/ACT section is straight forward if you have the guidebook and follow the official route. You would need proper topo maps if going via Jagungal and across the Main Range.

For the Victorian section you really need both the guide book and topographic maps.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby walkon » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 9:20 am

Hi Stroller

I did the AAWT mostly solo. I personally would recommend the guide book and frankly I had a laugh at the thought of one map doing the entire walk with a gps or not. If you are worried about the weight then rip the book up and put the relevant sections in with your food drops. Apart from water and suggested campsites the book gives info on side trips to interesting points of interest along the way. The walk is a journey that is all the better for these. I took maps, relevant parts of the guide book and a gps which I hardly used.

From the side of the safety/rescue point of view. There is a large amount of rescues that take place through electronics failing. For some reason people seem to think that it won't happen to them.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby GBW » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 10:02 am

Stroller wrote:My concern about the guide is the weight of it. I don't think it will be too much use if i don't bring it with me. For some reason i thought they were selling it also as a ebook which would have been good.


You could scan it or print out the important sections on lightweight paper....like I did. If you're going to attempt this walk you should get this book and as walkon has said there's plenty of useful info. Carrying just one map is cutting it a bit fine and relying only on a GPS not recommended.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 9:03 pm

Firstly, i thought the point of having a gps was so that you could avoid all the maps. Otherwise why do i need a gps at all? I am actually buying mainly for this hike, although it will save me having to buy and carry about a lot of road maps for the other parts of my tour as well.

Anyway its good to know that you all agree i need the book. At least I do'nt have angst over it anymore.

But please explain why i need lots of maps if i have a gps. It doesn't need a mobile coverage either.

How many topo maps do i need? What sort of investment does this represent? all up?

Anyway here's how i understand and then you can tell me how i'm going wrong. The gps tells me where i am and i can plot that on my single map. I think my gps in combination with the instruction in the book will show which way i need to go next. I can't remember the name of the gps maps i would use but I can find out.
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Should I buy the guidebook

Postby oyster_07 » Sun 17 Jul, 2016 10:01 pm

Stroller wrote:Anyway here's how i understand and then you can tell me how i'm going wrong. The gps tells me where i am and i can plot that on my single map. I think my gps in combination with the instruction in the book will show which way i need to go next. I can't remember the name of the gps maps i would use but I can find out.


When you say you can plot your location on a single map, please consider what actually constitutes a useable map scale.

This image shows the whole route: the upper section is Victoria and the lower section is New South Wales. These are my planning maps and are printed on A3 sheets at 1:100K. This is not at all a detailed enough scale for on-the-ground navigation; for that 1:25K or 1:50K is needed.
Image

Or, do you plan to have a single large sheet map at any given time (by picking up the subsequent map along with your food cache)? That may be workable depending on your daily stages, placement of caches, and coverage of each sheet.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Mon 18 Jul, 2016 11:10 pm

Are you saying i need to buy 11 topo maps? yes if I had to buy that many, i think it would be a great idea to put some in my food caches.

Perhaps I can find someone to sell theirs that they no longer need because this sounds like a big expense.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Mon 18 Jul, 2016 11:21 pm

I feel the need to vent: i just went to order the book and discovered that he's gone on holiday and can't process an order until 24 September. That's extremely inconvenient i must say. I wonder why they couldn't just sell them to the retailers to deal with like booktopia and the other online one.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby GBW » Mon 18 Jul, 2016 11:40 pm

The full set of maps for the AAWT comprises 26 maps which can be purchased as a set or individually. I think there's a set somewhere that includes Chapmans book.

http://themapmarket.cart.net.au/Austral ... c-Map-Pack

For Tharwa to Kiandra I used a couple of 1:25K for Long Plain area and 2 Rooftop maps ...

Kosciuszko Northern Activities Map - (Rooftop)
Namadgi - ACT South Activities Map - (Rooftop)

For Kiandra to Thredbo I used the 1:25K set plus Kosciuszko National Park Forest Activities Map - (Rooftop).
You can distribute them in your food drops.

They are a bit expensive but you can always resell them...better to be safe than sorry.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby FootTrack » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 12:06 am

Stroller wrote:I feel the need to vent: i just went to order the book and discovered that he's gone on holiday and can't process an order until 24 September. That's extremely inconvenient i must say. I wonder why they couldn't just sell them to the retailers to deal with like booktopia and the other online one.

Just buy it from a bushwalking store. It's a pretty widely available book and most stores stock a copy. Alternatively you could get one off eBay - I just checked then and there's heaps being sold...
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 10:36 am

re the book, there's a new edition. There's no bushwalking shops where i live. I doubt the booked is stocked up this part of the country.

Back to the etrex, please comment on this point - the person who put me onto it rode through the same area of the country using it. Said it was great. They didn't hike though, stuck to the 4WD tracks. He also didn't carry a bunch of maps. So while the risk of getting hopelessly lost would have been slightly less, he would have had all the other same issues to deal with as me. REmember I've got a solar battery charger - i think its a good one and it will certainly have time for testing on the earlier parts of my year long tour.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 10:49 am

walkon wrote:Hi Stroller
I took maps, relevant parts of the guide book and a gps which I hardly used.

From the side of the safety/rescue point of view. There is a large amount of rescues that take place through electronics failing. For some reason people seem to think that it won't happen to them.


Why didn't you use the GPS? I mean if i take all the maps and the guidebook, it would still be easier to use the GPS than a compass wouldn't it? From the way i understand it, you get a fix, plot it on the map, then you know where you are. If you have your route described on the map, you can see where you are in relation to the route at all times. I mean i'm not afraid to use a compass but the gps sounds like such a great gadget. you can put your route in as well. albeit I do'nt think the maps in it show contours adn other such detailed info.

When you say the gps's failed. That's only really relevant if they etrex 20 isn't it? I mean this is supposed to be a good gadget. And as mentioned above, i know someone who used it through the area and all the way up to Cooktown on the bicentennial national trail which you may know doesn't always follow roads.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby FootTrack » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 12:18 pm

Like any piece of electronic equipment, a GPS is prone to failure. It could take a drop, water could get into it, it might just die for some unseen reason...It all depends on how comfortable you are with the risks and consequences relating to GPS failure. And like Walkon said, the risks are real. Relying solely on a GPS would be like living on borrowed time in my opinion. It's certainly not something I would be comfortable with.

Your solar charger falls into the same electronics category. What happens if your GPS is flat and it's rainy, cloudy weather and the sun doesn't come out again for 3 days? What do you do then? These are all scenarios you need to be thinking through carefully. I would also be testing your solar charger out thoroughly before you relied on it too heavily - I have one myself and charging a device can be a slow process (and seemingly impossible at times).

If your friend was on a bike, I would imagine the tracks that he/she would have followed would have been relatively obvious and tame compared to the AAWT. A search of this forum will return photos of what the track is like in parts. It can be poorly maintained, unmarked for large sections, or unrecognisable due to thick regrowth following fires. It's certainly not a garden path and is a different kettle-of-fish to your everyday bike routes. As my understanding goes, the BNT and AAWT are not on the same level in terms of required navigational ability.

A map and compass are relatively bombproof in terms of things going wrong. And if something does go wrong, it's unlikely to be 100% catastrophic like a GPS failure i.e. a map can be used without a compass, a tear can be joined back together etc. The full map set does cost a lot of money (something around the $200 mark for all of them new), but it's a lot cheaper than a GPS when you consider what level of GPS you would need to buy to get the same set of features/details that a map gives you. A map and compass also weigh considerably less than a GPS (presuming you would be putting your future maps in food drops).

Two last points for your consideration. I think people can easily get tunnel vision from just following the arrow on a GPS. I know from using one that I am somewhat oblivious to my surroundings when I have one in hand, compared to a map. You have a much heightened spatial awareness when using a map and compass (which is a GREAT thing, especially when digging yourself out of trouble when #$%&@ does, inevitably, hit the fan. If you've just been following an arrow for the last hour and something happens with your GPS, and the route behind you looks unfamiliar, you might be working yourself into a sticky situation). My second piece of advice would be to become a gun at navigation before doing this trip. If you don't know how to use your map and compass, you may as well leave them at home. Rogaines are a great, relatively safe way of honing your skills. Watch YouTube videos, ask questions on here. Especially for a route like the AAWT, navigation is something you want to be very proficient at, and something a lot of people come unstuck with.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby peregrinator » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 12:38 pm

FootTrack wrote: . . It's certainly not a garden path and is a different kettle-of-fish to your everyday bike routes. . .


Or even walking routes.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 4:32 pm

On a bike, The tracks are probably tame to find but not so to push up a loaded bike from what i could tell from the blog i read of a guy who did it. In fact one of the reasons i've chosen to hike is because I think biking that region with a loaded bike looks rediciulous - the roads are so steep, and rough and a loaded bike is a lot heavier than a pack. Yes I expect the bnt is probably easier to navigate even though the guide book notes are hopelessly out of date and inaccurate.

Anyway i've got the idea now. Although i hadn't expected to be blindly following my gps gadget. I thought i would stop adn take a fix every now and but i do get it how being able to do the rout with the compass would be so much more rewarding.

I'll get fully acquainted before i head out.

I ordered the book it looks like there is not a new edition after all. something gave me the idea that there was a new edition just out.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby north-north-west » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 5:01 pm

Anything that has changed in the book since the last edition came out will be noted on the website.

Part of the reason real maps are a good idea is that you don't know the areas you'll be travelling through. In some sections, the maps and notes in the book will be sufficient. In some, the Rooftop maps will suffice. In others, VicMap or CMA topos (preferably 1:25k) are virtually essential for a newbie. And having the actual maps to study well in advance will help you to set certain aspects of the route in mind, and also give you more options in terms of alternative routes and sidetrips.
I've covered a lot of this terrain without refering to either paper maps or GPS, but only once I'd learnt my way around. And I never went in without carrying the relevant map/s even if they weren't looked at.

I'm tempted to lend you my maps if you'd pay the postage there and back, but it's a wrench parting with them even temporarily. And the postage wouldn't be cheap. And they're a rather mixed bag anyway - 1:12,500, 1:25,000, 1:50,000, from Rooftop, Vicmap, CMA . . . some of the Rooftops are laminated, some of the more frequently used held together with tape and still rather fragile, all of them a little battered and the worse for wear . . .
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby scoha » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 9:02 pm

The Chapman & Siseman guide is a must have IMHO - it pretty much defines the walk and has done for many decades in various forms. Its a valuable (and sometimes dryly entertaining) guide with heaps of additional useful info. I bought a seconds copy from John and Monica and split this into my various food drops as by itself it was quite a weight. I questioned John on this and he indicated that the heavier paper is part of the balance between a guide that lasts and a prints well. I also bought a new copy for my research and reading and for leaving with my wife to refer to as I was on the track. John & Monica put a huge effort into keeping the guide current and pick up where John Siseman left off. I understand they walk the trail every few years as part of this effort. The only return they would get from that is book sales.

That guide plus updates on this excellent forum (which you can save as offline version document on your phone) and a backup GPS for when it just doesn't make sense out there should be all you need. Side trips and diversions over the Main Range aside (for which you definitely should carry detailed maps) this should be adequate.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 11:23 pm

Oh no do i have to chase down updates too after buying a book. Oh damn!

Is there much to add to the 2009 addition? And where are the updates?
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 11:25 pm

Incidentally, if get all the maps, should i mark the route on them before I leave home like the guy above has done? Is that what everyone does?
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Strider » Tue 19 Jul, 2016 11:28 pm

If buying a book and a few maps is so much effort for you, what exactly are you expecting of this walk?

Fail to plan = plan to fail.

Good luck.

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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby alanoutgear » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 4:03 am

Hi Stroller, there's a bit of difference between a "10 day hike on the south coast track of Tassie with others from bushwalking club, and a 5 day hike in Ladakh with donkey and guide" and attempting the AAWT solo. This is a serious undertaking and neither of the examples you've given IMO provide much help.

You definitely need to be a competent ground reader, and map and compass user, and you need to know where you are at all times.

If I carry a GPS, it's only as a failsafe, and it sits in my pack with batteries out.

Everyone else is right - get Chapman, get good maps, and dare I suggest, get a PLB!

Although much of the AAWT is a walk in the park (literally), it isn't a walk in the park (metaphorically).
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby oyster_07 » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 7:06 am

Stroller wrote: Is there much to add to the 2009 addition? And where are the updates?


Much of the area was hit but bushfire in 2013 (as well as other previous fires). This causes a change in the vegetation that means what was once relatively thin suddenly becomes very dense with regrowth. It also changes where water can be found and how it can be accessed. Based on this, it is completely reasonable to seek updates, and you can find them at http://www.john.chapman.name/aawt-upd.html

I urge you, Stroller, to seek some reading on the AAWT and what you intend on undertaking, lest you go in unprepared.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 8:50 am

FootTrack wrote:Like any piece of electronic equipment, a GPS is prone to failure ...Especially for a route like the AAWT, navigation is something you want to be very proficient at, and something a lot of people come unstuck with.


+1. This is a good summary. I lost the route coming off the Viking, led astray by an old AWT marker that was perhaps 200 metres from the new alignment. Oops. A GPS would have shown this, but what if the GPS was dead? I used my map and compass to get back on track.

The 2009 edition is dated, so read John's website, the three stickies here, other posts, and ask questions. Have fallback plans. The AAWT has continuous climbs and descents, so it's challenging and stamina is needed. As mentioned in a few posts, it's acceptable to vary the route, such as going over Cobberas, Pilot, the Main Range, Gungartan, and Jagungal, and going to Happys Hut then straight up the hill north. These are brilliant places that should not be missed. Navigation is required.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 12:09 pm

I have actually done some orienteering with map and compass, albeit not for two months on the trot and as I said, not for some time. And yes any fool can see that there's a difference between this and the hikes i mentioned. The point of mentioning the hikes was so that you could appreciate that i can carry a fully loaded pack for days on end up steep and difficult terrain. Mud and tree roots and so on. My pack was 22kilgrams also and i'm 165cm. And also that i'm ok in the bush. The TAsmanian bushwalking club is also probably one of the most proficient in the country. Before my 10 day hike, which was my first with the group, i had to take my fully loaded pack to the hike leaders house and show him what i had in it. He didn't like me bringing my 1kg camera or a pair of running shoes (in addition to my hiking boots - they were to give my feet relief) He didn't like it on the hike, that i tried to keep the mud out of my shoes as much as possible. And on the hike he didn't like it that I stopped often to take photos. Those people just like to tear along at breakneck speed with their nose to the trail. One of them nearly gave herself a heart attack. But then two of us went off one day to climb Preciptious bluff which was fun. It took us 13 hours. Before this hike starts, I will have been on the road with my bike at least three months so I will be very fit already.

The most helpful comment with regard to the difficulty is from those people telling of their own issues with navigation. This best helps me appreciate the difficulty. But anyway so far I have fully grasped the need to be proficient with map and compass.

As regards the changes made to the book. Is it clear on that site which are the updates? I have looked at that site before and they did not leap out at me at all. Do i have to go through the book with a fine tooth comb before leaving home and augment it with notes from the site updates? Is that what i have to do. Please answer this clearly and unambiguously.

I have just ordered the book. Now I understand why i have got it for half price. I am disappointed that there isn't a new edition to buy after all.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby scoha » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 7:58 pm

Stroller - the updates aren't too numerous and are a simple list by successive page number as you work (walk) through the book. Very simple. You can print this out and take it with you, or mark up the book, or take it as a file on your phone. Also get some of the even more current route updates from this forum - theres plenty of people who have preceded you and taken the time to update the forum [which is why this place is sooooooooo great!]

Its such a big undertaking, you do not want it spoiled or impacted by unnecessary geographical embarrassments.

Good luck and enjoy - let me know if you want gear and food lists etc which Im happy to share
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:20 pm

scoha wrote:Stroller - the updates aren't too numerous and are a simple list by successive page number as you work (walk) through the book. Very simple. You can print this out and take it with you, or mark up the book, or take it as a file on your phone. Also get some of the even more current route updates from this forum - theres plenty of people who have preceded you and taken the time to update the forum [which is why this place is sooooooooo great!]

Its such a big undertaking, you do not want it spoiled or impacted by unnecessary geographical embarrassments.

Good luck and enjoy - let me know if you want gear and food lists etc which Im happy to share


Ok good about the updates. I can cope with that I think. I hope i can remember that's all...

I think i'm pretty good with gear. I think i'm also good with food. I have much experience with food without fresh veg available. And i have all the gear i need already. Cycle touring is more demanding in this area than hiking. The only thing that's different is the boots and luckily i spent a fortune on those years ago, kept them and will post them to victoria for this walk. I'm even taking my backpack on my bike tour with me cause i want to do some short hikes in New zealand. I will probably have about 30kg on my bike (all on the back wheel) plus me, and will aim for 20kg or less on my back for the AAWT.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Uncle Rumple » Thu 21 Jul, 2016 5:08 am

I've only come to this thread late, so apologies in advance if I'm repeating what someone else has already said but large scale maps are absolutely essential to enable you to appreciate the sense of scale of the AAWT, and, even more importantly, to enable you to plot an exit in the event you are beset by injury, fire, or 'drought or flooding rain'. It's impossible to follow the tracks on a teeny tiny GPS screen to see which ones head to safety and which ones go nowhere.

Of particular interest is the story of how the survivors of the plane crash at Cowombat flat walked out to safety at Benambra by following old logging roads and bush tracks. They wouldn't have been able to do this with just a Garmin GPS

Stroller, i recommend you take paper maps, a GPS preloaded with the AAWT track (Google Karen Cody to download these), a PLB and the guidebook pages for the section you are doing. If you can't carry all this, then leave something else behind. Otherwise you might as well just do 600km around the nearest Westfield Carpark. You'll have just as much fun and be less of a burden to the S&R guys.

Good luck. You'll need it.
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 21 Jul, 2016 7:25 am

Uncle Rumple, agree. For a discussion about maps see
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=23678
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby YowieDude » Sun 04 Sep, 2016 8:54 pm

yes
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Re: Should I buy the guidebook

Postby Stroller » Mon 05 Sep, 2016 5:11 pm

There is no need for further comment on this thread. Consider it closed.
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