the standards will be voluntary and will rarely apply to amateur groups.
Rarely....Yeah right. Typical bureaucratic weasel words that are used later to justify ever encroaching regulation.
the standards will be voluntary and will rarely apply to amateur groups.
the standards will be voluntary and will rarely apply to amateur groups.
Australian AAS will reduce red tape
There are no proposed changes to existing public land arrangements in Victoria
.There is no requirement for formal training courses or qualifications in the Australian AAS
Xplora wrote:Tick a box qualifications are more about protecting people from liability so when something does go wrong the insurance companies will pay out.
rcaffin wrote:Has an AAS been in existence already for a number of years? Yes.
Errr... Really?
I am not aware of this happening in NSW. Maybe in Vic?
Cheers
Roger
PS: I cannot imagine many NSW walkers taking the slightest notice of this idiocy. We have a long history of ignoring 'authority' in NSW.
Mark F wrote:
The courts will often ascribe a greater duty of care to people with qualifications compared to those without in the same circumstances. A bit of a conundrum. Land managers want the quals to enable access so their butts are covered but in the event of a pear shaped outcome quals may come back to haunt the holder. I expect insurance companies will also want the quals once they exist as it provides a more reliable and more easily controlled (read tick box) solution rather than have to evaluate claimed experience.
rcaffin wrote:Hi Xplora
We seem to be approaching this whole matter with two completely opposite mind-sets.
rcaffin wrote:First of all, we do NOT see bushwalking as an 'adventure sport'. It's a recreation, something we do to enjoy the bush. We do not want 'adventure' at all. There is a huge difference between this and what a commercial adventure group does.
rcaffin wrote:Second, we do not place anywhere near the emphasis on 'leadership' which you are expecting.
rcaffin wrote:A group of friends go on a walk together, with each person being entirely responsible for him/herself. To be sure, sometimes one person may organise the route or the logistics of the walk, but that person does not put themself forward as an 'expert' and does not accept the liability for the whole party the way a commercial guide does. Every person on that walk is an independent volunteer.
rcaffin wrote:Most clubs do in fact have some assessment processes, gear recommendations, and may even have a walk briefing checklist. But I think you will find that there is still that difference in mind-set between a formal bureaucratic checklist and what a club does. Ticking boxes ... is just so useless. All these people are VOLUNTEERS out for their own enjoyment.
Xplora wrote: I have commercially guided people before and led groups of individuals. I have trained people and assessed their skills, written training lessons, risk assessments, emergency strategies and liaised with authorities and insurance providers. My experience has also led me to court for civil and criminal matters as a witness..
.... snip .....
ALL clubs should have an assessment process etc. This is not a bureaucratic checklist but it does formalise the process so we are all on level ground with the same rules. It is a guide to help you form your own assessment process and a standard which can be applied to everyone. You leave one club and take your accreditation with you.
....
JohnStrider wrote:Conversely, I truly don't believe it will get up. It might mean the end for a lot of these groups, but I guess it might weed out those who aren't all that serious about it. Should it pass, I would expect the government to offer the volunteer groups something in return by way of assistance. What that might look like I'm not too sure.
Xplora wrote: but the insurance companies and land managers are already adopting the current guidelines.
Xplora wrote:Some land managers are already stipulating incorporated associations agree to comply with the current standard for their state as a condition of entry.
From what I understand, all NP's are requiring commercial operators, schools and TAFE to comply with the standard for each state and Parks Vic have included the likes of clubs on official club walks such as Nuts has indicated. It is not something enforced on clubs but if they do not comply then PV has some recourse. There is more to the standard than just leadership. Group size, toileting and waste, minimal impact etc. all of which clubs do now in the main. I suspect PV are more interested in clubs doing the right thing in the park and looking after it than leaders having formal qualifications or the club having risk management and emergency plans but again it is there to cover their butt. Generally PV take a second seat when it comes to search and rescue as the SES now have control of that.tom_brennan wrote:Xplora wrote: but the insurance companies and land managers are already adopting the current guidelines.Xplora wrote:Some land managers are already stipulating incorporated associations agree to comply with the current standard for their state as a condition of entry.
You've mentioned this a couple of times. Which land managers are already enforcing compliance with the current standard?
Xplora wrote:From my discussions today it will not be hard or expensive for clubs to comply.
rcaffin wrote:Has an AAS been in existence already for a number of years? Yes.
Errr... Really?
I am not aware of this happening in NSW. Maybe in Vic?
Cheers
Roger
PS: I cannot imagine many NSW walkers taking the slightest notice of this idiocy. We have a long history of ignoring 'authority' in NSW.
wildwanderer wrote:
Can you give more information on why you believe it wont be expensive ?
wildwanderer wrote:From my perspective. If the proposed AAAS requires competences that are based on the current TAFE outdoor
wildwanderer wrote:rec standard then for a club to certify and be in compliance with the proposed AAAS they will need to
a) pay for a certified (commercial) trainer to come in and train a couple of senior members up to certified instructor level. (so the club instructors can then certify their walk leaders). This will surely cost many thousands of dollars especially if your including canyoning/abseling in the certification to instructor level.
or
b) pay for a certified (commercial) instructor to assess and certify each walk leader. (again likely several hundred, maybe a thousand+ dollars per leader).
Nuts wrote:Parks Vic Group Activity Form
Xplora wrote:... and Parks Vic have included the likes of clubs on official club walks such as Nuts has indicated. It is not something enforced on clubs but if they do not comply then PV has some recourse.
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