Jetboil Flash Disaster

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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 11:01 am

Ok, understood.

Though I doubt he'd be the first questioning whether the instructions were a good enough fail-safe in this case. At the very least it wasn't the users first consideration to blame the appliance. We'll have to disagree it wasn't a reasonable follow up thought to have (in anything but hindsight..)

This warning is on this stove because of the unexpected ease of destruction not because it's just any stove or pot ..or even a faster option.
I agreed, primarily user error, but there's nothing more to learn by all agreeing to be dismissive.

The first lawsuit this company looses will suddenly prove their design wasn't good enough (to everyone)? No further consideration needed?
(Unless others have more to add) A clear precedent was set with the ongoing cartridge stove recall, where instructions on use weren't enough.. here in Australia, despite all the happy users?

My new angle grinder now has a guard that can't be removed without a specialist driver. For a time instructions to not operate the grinder without a guard (removed with a screwdriver) must have been good enough.
"The guides are all complaining there's mobile reception and hot showers," Godfrey laughs.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Warin » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 11:25 am

Label on packet of nuts: Warning. May contain nuts.

Possibly some would want the warning label to be bigger than the product label that says "Peanuts".

(Fly United .. and you used to be able to see this, don't know if they still do.)
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 11:28 am

haha, yes, exactly, choose a packet that doesn't ;
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby slparker » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 11:30 am

Well i agree that an item of equipment should not be of an unsafe design and I would say that the jetboil isn't an unsafe design. In terms of whether the design should be changed - that is a problem for the market to decide - if jetboils get a reputation for fragility, or fail under normal operating conditions the market will correct the problem.

The fusing of the cup to burner is not a 'problem' of jetboil design it is a consequence of misusing the equipment - these are two different things.

Should the device have a failsafe where it cannot be operated with fluid in the cup? I think not - such a failsafe is neither practical nor warranted in specialised equipment. I think that it is reasonable for the manufacturer to provide instructions as to the operation of the equipment as the means to prevent potentially unsafe or destructive operation.

is it reasonable to expect the operator of a potentially hazardous piece of equipment to read the operating and safety instructions? i think so but what i think is not what the courts think so i have no doubt a litigant will eventually be offended that their jetboil has been destroyed because they did not read the safety instructions and become a successful plaintiff. But, the test in a court is usually what a reasonable person would do or expect in the circumstances.

i am still unsure what more needs to be done. The operating instructions are very clear - but perhaps the OP is right, perhaps jetboil need to explain why running the cup dry is unsafe just in case people decide to ignore the safety instructions. Some redundant warnings do seem to appear here and there - such as 'improper use may cause death' on a climbing harness and 'warning may contain nuts' - on peanuts. Either way - i am certain that many people would 'take the chance' and try and dry out their jetboil or sterilise it anyway... perhaps that would require a third warning "we really mean it when we say that operating the jetboil dry will rapidly destroy the f&^%king thing". But, again, Some people see this as a challenge like a button that states 'do not press' or an angle grinder that says 'do not apply to face'.

But no amount of design or brightly coloured warnings will deter people from not reading or paying heed to instructions. I am well aware of human factors and safety but some things cannot be designed away without rendering a device impractical. But what annoys me is the (seeming) intransigence of the OP to admit his contribution to the error - as if it is the manufacturers fault that he did not read the instructions- which clearly stated...oh, nevermind.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 11:44 am

I'm sure R&D at Jetboil have a continuous choice on materials to use with 'how lightweight they can get away with' (without limiting their market) as a primary concern in their latest run of cups, stoves and heat exchangers (and the cozy.. not able to be put on the cup while on the stove?)

Anyhow, I'm happy to be relieved, all is good, my thoughts are obviously exhausted..
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby north-north-west » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 12:48 pm

It is a sad fact that it is impossible to idiotproof anything. Or maybe not so sad - at least some of these idiots remove themselves permanently from the gene pool.

And it is a sad commentary - more than sad -- upon the human species that we find it necessary to add warning after warning after caution to everything because some people are too stupid or too lazy to think about the potential consequences of their behaviour, and too arrogant to accept those consequences.

Wonko the Sane was right. I'm considering emulating him.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Moondog55 » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 1:00 pm

north-north-west wrote:I
Zonko the Sane was right. I'm considering emulating him.

OK I'm going to have to Google that. I know I should know it but I can't recall the reference, it just sounds so familiar.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Moondog55 » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 1:03 pm

By any chance did you mean Wonko from THHGTTG??
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Franco » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 1:09 pm

Toothpick_may_hurt_finger_warning,_Chopsticks,_conveni,_Tokyo,_Japan_(13890751664).jpg
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 1:26 pm

north-north-west wrote:It is a sad fact that it is impossible to idiotproof anything. Or maybe not so sad - at least some of these idiots remove themselves permanently from the gene pool.

And it is a sad commentary - more than sad -- upon the human species that we find it necessary to add warning after warning after caution to everything because some people are too stupid or too lazy to think about the potential consequences of their behaviour, and too arrogant to accept those consequences.


Let us not get carried away. Who's question are you reading? (and isn't the corporation mindset as equally disturbing.. if that's your thing?).
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 1:28 pm

Franco wrote:
Toothpick_may_hurt_finger_warning,_Chopsticks,_conveni,_Tokyo,_Japan_(13890751664).jpg



Great! the spare struts for our scarps?
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Franco » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 1:32 pm

It was a reference to Wonko The Sane.

"It seemed to me," said Wonko the Sane, "that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a package of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane." - So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish (Douglas Adams)

I added a warning to it....
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 1:49 pm

all sillyness aside..

Species.

My suggestion would have to start with a stove that has an Australian Standards tag fixed.
There aren't a lot but a few that would be far more carefree than this. I did see a story on similar with an MSR reactor.. (which I believe can also be bought locally) - the guy had been distracted (would you believe) and after 20mins he noticed smoke etc from the warping pot.. if you wanted to try similar.

I'd just stick to a simple can-top or remote canister stove and lash out on a titanium pot, titanium wont melt, bigger buffer, and you'll have far less stress (or need to mention problems). whack your beanie around it!
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby photohiker » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 3:36 pm

Nuts wrote:My suggestion would have to start with a stove that has an Australian Standards tag fixed.


Nuts.

I have read many about you for many years. You have done a lot of stuff, and help a lot of hikers. I like you.

However, your opinion about the Jetboil Standards is incorrect.

Because you have been a bit nasty about the Jetboil, today, I rang the Jetboil Australian supplier 'Sea to Summit', and asked if the Jetboil is tested at correct Standard by the Australian Gas Association. The supplier from Sea to Summit says that every Jetboil sold by Sea to Summit and supplied to the general retailers, is tested by the Australian Gas Association and is correct. Sea to Summit would not sell any Jetboil if they were not tested by the AGA. There is one new version of the Jetboil Flash Hiking Stove coming soon which is not available in Australia yet waiting for testing to the standard. That new version apparently has higher power than the std versions.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby north-north-west » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 3:55 pm

Moondog55 wrote:By any chance did you mean Wonko from THHGTTG??


Yeah Wonko. Whatever. You know what I mean.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Franco » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 4:02 pm

Years ago a US cottage manufacturer sent me some stoves to see if any shop here was interested in selling them.
I then find out that they could not be sold retail without that testing/certificate so those stoves were never sold here .
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Moondog55 » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 4:12 pm

north-north-west wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:By any chance did you mean Wonko from THHGTTG??


Yeah Wonko. Whatever. You know what I mean.


Zonko had some sock to it tho
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby johnrs » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 4:33 pm

Just love this thread!
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Lamont » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 4:46 pm

"Yeah Wonko. Whatever".
I don't know if Wonko and Zonko are the same thing.
Knew a kid named Zonko once....good dancer, but I digress.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby north-north-west » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 5:06 pm

Lamont wrote:"Yeah Wonko. Whatever".
I don't know if Wonko and Zonko are the same thing.
Knew a kid named Zonko once....good dancer, but I digress.


I've read Harry Potter more recently than H2G2 and the brian was having an off day, so names got a little mixed up.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Mark F » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 5:28 pm

nnw - does brian do all your remembering for you? :roll:
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Bill P » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 5:32 pm

Hi Species,

Unfortunately i can sympathise with you as I have done something similar with my jetboil. On a kayak trip i was demonstrating (showing off) with how quick the thing is. Mate hands me his trangia bowl full of milk and says "here smartarse do something useful and heat this up will you" so i put the trangia bowl on top of the burner, in lieu of the finned cup and very shortly, to my surprise, :shock: set the jetboil orange plastic support strut on fire.

Too much heat was refelected back off the flat pan bottom. It still works ok and Ive since learned that the ultralight enthusiasts cut off the plastic support strut anyway so all is not lost!

The jetboil is a great unit for a limited application but its not as idiot proof as a trangia. And yes i have burnt few trangia o rings over the years.
:D
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 5:48 pm

Kovea Spider is a great little stove, i'm not sure they are still sold in Australia, if so they would be good option. It wasn't clear whether metho or gas but something like this would be a bit more user friendly step up from a trangia, perhaps? Metho trangia to a Jetboil would have to be tortoise V hare.

I cut the legs off mine, so it's AS is probably null and void :)

(Thanks Michael)
If only allowed two words they would have been 'operator error'. I didn't intend to be nasty at all to the stove.. :? lol I'd have one but know myself, have to clear an area and put the ground and wind shields in place etc. the titanium pot is a chore to keep clean but at least all this can stand up to a short inevitable distraction.

So, I understand the JB is sold in stores and expected that Species's may be tagged, it's possible to buy online and there may even be a cheap copy but at least a bricks & mortar store here should have the real mcoy and back it up. I'd have no ethical dilemma taking it back, even for this, at least having the question posed whether that warning was good enough (for the retailer).

I can say, closer to the coalfront, maybe the conscience, that like some other light gear for other reasons, neither this stove nor the MSR even need further consideration as suitable for general hire (shrug), even with a demonstration. I'd simply expect some, even otherwise very smart, people could very well make a mess of it. And so move on.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Lamont » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 5:55 pm

'Wonko, Zonko and Brian', weren't they a glam rock band from the 70s?
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby north-north-west » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 7:23 pm

"brian" is - or was -- one of those interwebby misspellings that became standardised usage on a cricket forum to which I belonged for a good many year).

H2G2 is -- or was - standard fanboy shorthand for The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

I think you're thinking of Wonky, Zonky and Bahrain, the Middle Eastern architects.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Species 8472 » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 1:51 pm

Hi all just a note to say I didn't get a refund from Rays because I didn't ask for one. The sales assistant said they would contact STS for a response, but have not heard back.
The reason I did the 2nd burn was to melt off the remaining insulating sleeve which had melted onto the cup. There is a warning ( which was easy to read ) that the product contains products known to be carcinogenic and that this warning was issued by California. I assumed that was referring to the sleeve. Whilst doing this the stove melted very quickly.
I have heated my trangia empty for sterilization purposes. It only requires a few seconds and the heat on the metal is sufficient to kill bacterial spores ,something that boiling water doesn't do. Boiling water for disinfection takes more time and fuel. Heating the naked metal floor with a flame takes seconds and less fuel. That was the reason for my empty burn.
Yes I stuffed up
No I didn't expect a refund.
However Jetboil should in their normal warnings about using a burner ( carbon monoxide ,fire and explosive) should highlight the warning about using it on empty MUCH MORE. As I said before I found the print on the user guide very small even with my reading glasses.
Yes I didn't read the user guide completely.
And therefore I didn't expect a refund.

In the end I ended up buying a Soto Windmaster and using the smaller trangia pot. With the 100g gas canister the total weight was under 400g.( a saving of about 800g compared with my trangia )
I tested this stove with a fan and cooling the canister with ice and I've calculated that I can get through a 5 day walk on this setup.
So for me it's worked out quite well.
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