World Expeditions vs Peregrine (and others)

[flatfoot]

Now that I'm fit I'm keen to do a multi-week trek in the Himalaya. I'll be aiming for a trip somewhere in the Sept to Nov timeframe.

Does anyone have first-hand experience of treks with either of these trekking companies (or others)?

How well organized are they? How well do they deal with interruptions? (e.g weather conditions can affect flights in and out of Lukla)

Were there any hidden costs I should be aware of?

I'm also interested in general observations, including specific locations or experiences that you rated highly.

[Lizzy]

Hey Flatfoot,
Firstly I'll say that it is over 10 years since I have been to Nepal & secondly I didn't go with a commercial company....however if you are looking at all options & depending on where you want to trek I went over there by myself & firsly did the Annapurna Circuit & Santuary (about 22 days). For this walk I hired a local porter/guide who carried some of my gear & led the way. I stayed in teahouses I organised along the way... this was quite cheap & easy at the time- but saying that I didn't really like doing it this way- would have been better if I had been with another hiker. Amazing trek though!
The second walk I did was fly into Lukla & hike up to Gokyo Lakes- I did this entirely by myself & had a much better time (am very independent!). Once again I stayed in teahouse - there are heaps. This walk was amazing & had sppectacular views of Everest & alot of the other big ones. You end up walking right along the worlds longest (?) glacier which runs down from near Cho Ouy (World's 6th highest mountain). Ahhhhhhh. The days walks are not that far because you have to acclimatise- you get to about 5500m on both these walks.
The flights into/out of Lukla can be a bit problematic so just make sure you allow a few extra days- plently to do around Kathmandu anyway if you do get in on time.
Can't wait to get back there myself but will be a few more years I think....
Looking forward to hearing what you end up doing. I'm sure if you go with a trekking company ieverything will be organised & would probly be best if you are very time-poor but not $ poor -lol.
Cheers
Lizzy

[flatfoot]

Hi Lizzy,

Thanks for imparting some of your experience. I'm fairly time poor and the prospect of organising a trek like that myself sounds daunting. The prices to me seem reasonable given the inclusions. I like the idea of a relatively fixed cost. I think for a self-organised trip I would need to use much more of my available leave. At this stage I'm planning for 5 weeks off work to allow time for the trek, buffer time in Kathmandu and a couple of days at home before I go back to work. I'm glad that I've got some long service leave.

I need to arm myself with some knowledge of the area to select a trek so I've ordered myself a guidebook. I was in my local Borders store today and said guide book was around $43. I found the same thing online with free shipping for only $16.98! I've just got to wait for it.

A woman I know has lung damage as a consequence of a trek in Nepal so I'm definitely looking to do a slower-paced trek.

Thanks, flatfoot.

[Tony]

Hi Flatfoot,

This trekking Company Adventure Thamserku is worth a look at, my daughter and boyfriend used them 12 months ago and could not speak highly enough of them, they paid extra so they where the only ones on the trek and found that everything was inclusive of the costs which worked out actually cheaper than some other companies which charged extra for just about everything.

The other advantage of a private trek was that the guide and porter catered to their fitness and illnesses, if sick some of the other trekking companies would ship you out very quickly as not to slow the trekking party down.

Another thing that impressed us is that the owner is involved in this project Classrooms in the clouds


Tony

[flatfoot]

Tony - thanks! Looks very professional and interesting!

[DaveNoble]

I have recently returned from a couple of treks in Nepal. A great place! See -

http://www.david-noble.net/Asia/Nepal/2 ... Treks.html

We saw groups from WE and Peregrine. They seemed well organised and seemed to have a good time. However I would favour a smaller group size - and it is very easy to organise your trek from the multitude of trekking agencies in Kathmandu (which is what we did). This would certainly be a LOT cheaper than going through a company with an office in Australia. The advantages of a small party trek organised from Kathmandu (or other place within Nepal) would be -

cheaper - even for a party size of one (and a lot of people trek that way, one person, their guide and perhaps a porter)
the small groups can fit into smaller tea-houses - many of which are really great (the local people go out of their way to be hospitable)
more flexible schedule and route - you can dictate where to go and if you need rest days or acclimatisation days
more interactions with the local people

The way our trek was organised was -

We knew where we wanted to go (Three Passes Trek starting from Jiri) - picked from looking at guidebooks/web etc
At the airport at Kathmandu - when we were looking for a taxi, a "local" told us he could get a cheap taxi and help choose a good hotel etc.
This worked out OK
Then when we were organised at the hotel, he took us to a trekking agency (which we found later he works for)
WE sat down in the office and spoke to the boss, said what we wanted to do
A plan was worked out, costs discussed and we met the guide and talked to him about the route
We then decided amongst ourselves that it was a good deal - and accepted.
The company organised all permits (National Park and TIMS) and bus and air tickets
We spent a day in Kathmandu - buying a few odds and ends and a little bit of food (snack bars, drink powder etc)
Then our guide met us at our hotel and we went by taxi to the bus station for the bus to Jiri

Later, on the trek, talking to other trekkers, they had similar stories "met a guy at the airport etc...."

Our costs for the trek - about US$1350 (each) for 24 days trekking (guiding costs, 3 meals a day plus accommodation), bus ticket to Jiri, plane ticket from Lukla to Kathmandu, permits. We carried our own gear (clothes, sleeping bags, camera gear etc). Many other parties we saw (most) had a few porters.
Whats was not included was drinks (you do drink a lot of tea!) and desserts.

After our first trek - we used the same agency to organise a second trek near Annapurna. We bargained a better price for that trip - as we knew the system better - and were considering going independently (no guide). There is a link to our trekking company (Eagle Treks) on my webpage. It seemed quite good - but I could not honestly say if it was better or worse than other companies.

Dave

[flatfoot]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the fantastic info. I spent a great deal of time looking through all of your photos. It's a great way to get a perspective of the trail conditions and vistas to expect. Very useful info!

Walking in from Jiri sounds like a good thing to do. Did any of you experience any symptoms of high altitude sickness? Did you meet anyone that did?

Thanks, flatfoot

[Lizzy]

Dave,
As usual those photos are superb!! Makes me want to jump on a plane right now! (but would be a bit chilly....)
Thanks
Lizzy

[Jellybean]

Agreed, sensational shots Dave, thanks so much for sharing them!! (I agree Lizzy, makes me want to go straight back!!).

Flatfoot, the best (and most popular) two times to go to Nepal are reportedly around April and around October. I've been at both times and actually preferred the October time slot. While we copped a little of the last monsoon rains on the first few days of the walk it was also a lot less hazy (clearer views) and less dusty.

The first time we went to Nepal we did an Annapurna-Dhauligiri trek with Peregrine (approx. 2 weeks) in April. Peregrine were very well organised and all inclusions/exclusions were made clear from the outset. I understand that World Expeditions runs on a very similar basis. We had about 15 people in our party, from all over the world, but, while we had a great time it really was too many people. We tented it the whole trek (I enjoyed doing it that way), except for a few days in Kathmandu where we stayed at Hotel Shanker, an old Raj palace, just up the road from the Royal Palace and Thamel. We drove to Pokhara on a Peregrine bus (a hair raising experience and I recommend that you don't ever consider taking local bus services along this route - there were a number of bus wrecks off the sharp drops on the side of the road)(you can also fly there, which I would probably do if we went that way again), then walked from near there and spent a minimum of time on the main trails. This walk included quite varying and magnificent scenery from the lake at Pokhara and the lowlands, up through the flowering rhododendron forests to the sub-alpine and alpine areas. The highest point we reached on this trek was around 3,500m.

As soon as we finished this first walk we wanted to go back, albeit to do a more challenging walk with a smaller group of people. Our Peregrine trek leader from the A-D walk suggested we try Mera Peak, the highest trekking peak in Nepal at approx. 6,500m. He arranged our guides etc. and made all the relevant bookings for us for a fraction of the cost that Peregrine would have charged. This time only six of us went (three of us had been on the first walk and three other walking friends joined us) and we were away for the best part of a month. After a couple of days in Kathmandu, we flew into Lukla (an experience in itself!!) and then walked from there. On our return to Lukla we had two "bad weather days" up our sleeve (important to plan for this) so we decided to walk up and back to Namche (Bazaar), a fantastic side trip and in complete and fascinating contrast to the walk to Mera (pretty much all "remote" walking to Mera, whereas the walk up to Namche was all on main trails). With the exception of an overnight in the tea house right alongside the Lukla airstrip and an overnight in a tea house at Namche, we again tented it all the way on this trip. This was a much more challenging trip with quite different scenery to A-D but we loved it! (My profile pic was taken on the approach to High Camp on Mera Peak - 5800m).

We definitely want to go back to Nepal! Not only for the magnificent scenery but also for the beautiful people (so friendly, hospitable and happy despite living in very harsh conditions by our standards. Makes you consider what's really important in life). It is really quite a spiritual place. I also highly recommend that you allow some time both ends of your trip to browse around and enjoy Kathmandu and the Kathmandu Valley, a fascinating place.

Cheers,

JB

[DaveNoble]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the fantastic info. I spent a great deal of time looking through all of your photos. It's a great way to get a perspective of the trail conditions and vistas to expect. Very useful info!

Walking in from Jiri sounds like a good thing to do. Did any of you experience any symptoms of high altitude sickness? Did you meet anyone that did?

Thanks, flatfoot

The walk in from Jiri was very worthwhile - a lot less crowded with other trekkers than further on - and very beautiful and interesting country.

We went to higher altitudes gradually - and did find the first pass (5530m) quite hard - a lot of panting, mild headaches and a bit of head spinning - but nothing too bad. All the high sections after that were much easier. But we did meet people that were altitude sick - eg one guy that had not eaten much for 5 or 6 days. The night we saw him - he only ate about 2 spoonfuls of his soup.

We only had about 30 minutes of rain - on our first trek, and none on our second. No snow - but it had been snowing in different places. Our trekking company boss told us that we were in the best periods of weather for where we were going, ie best weather near Everest is late Oct/early Nov, then late Nov/early Dec is best for Annapurna region. We did have clear conditions, but there was often afternoon mists - this depended on which valleys you were in and what altitudes.

One thing to note is the Annapurna Circuit is now no longer the trek it was. New roads have reduced the walking part to about 5 days for many people (they hire jeeps on the roads). But still beautiful scenery - and it is possible in many places to walk along trails away from the roads.

Dave

[flatfoot]

Thanks Dave, JB and Lizzy. The info you have provided is very useful. I'm hoping that the LP guide book I ordered has detailed info on all the routes. I'm definitely interested in routes that include Gokyo Lakes and Gokyo Ri (Dave - your photos confirmed that). Everest Base Camp would also be an interesting place to visit. I'm assuming that this gives the best unobstructed views of Everest ... although are there other places on the trekking routes that give unobstructed views?

JB - the high-altitude trek sounds interesting. Not something I would try a first time but it would be a challenge.

Treks of around 22 to 25 days are what I will lean towards for acclimatisation.

I'm assuming we would need to prepare our own trail mixes and energy snacks for during the walk. A 3 week supply could get quite heavy. Can any of those items be bought easily at teahouses and other larger settlements on route? Did any of you carry this sort of thing through customs and into Nepal? Any problems?

[Lizzy]

Hi Flatfoot,
Once again my info is a bit historic (10 years old)- but the teahouses even back then were well equipped & you could buy a coke & Mars Bar along the trail (more expensive the higher/further you go). Big towns like Namche have the lot- including yummy bakeries- I took it upon myself to try every type of 'Apple pie/momo' I could find! You could also buy packets of biscuits etc etc. I think I took a packet of mini mars bars with me from home but that was about it & my 2nd trek into Gokyo I would have had only nepalese stuff- you can also stock up cheaper in Kathmandu .

In regards to altitude sickness- I made sure I took plenty of time on my treks and followed recommended rest days. On the rest days I climbed higher for the day & come back down to lower altitude to sleep to aid acclimitsation. When I went across the Thorung La (5415m) on the Around Annapurna I was ok- out of breath but good but did see others who were struggling/ dizzy/headaches. I had diamox with me too (medication). On the Gokyo trek I also took my time but was already acclimatised from the previous trek so felt great. However, there were heaps of choppers going up the valley to Everest or Gokyo to pick up trekkers who moved too fast- I think this can be a problem of travelling in a group where you are trying to keep up/ or on a schedule.

Attached are a few scanned photos pre-digital era.
The first shows the view from Gokyo Ri of Everest (the big pyramid one with the clouds gusting off the top). The second are the beautiful lakes at Gokyo & the 3rd the airstrip at Lukla- you can see why it is weather dependant- Mountains on the sides and drops over an endge at the start/end!

[DaveNoble]

Most of the teahouses sell snack food - eg mars bars, snickers bars, bounties, coke, fanta, sprite, pringles (and not much more than that except smokes) but more expensive than Kathmandu or Pokara. You can buy biscuits and sintilas (a type of orange/mandarin) from passing porters on their way to Namche. I carried some chocolate bars that I bought in Kathmandu - and ended up not eating them all (the local food is pretty filling). The teahouse menus include - momos (a type of dumpling - steamed or fried, and pretty tasty), dal bhat (what every Nepali eats - two meals a day, a big plateful of rice (bhat) with a curry (mainly potatoes) and/or greens (spinach or bok choy - very fresh - you see it picked from the garden) and a small bowl of dal (lentils) - and it is standard to get seconds. Potatoes (very tasty locally grown) - either boiled or fried (with egg, yak cheese or vegies), noodles, pizza (cooked on a hotplate rather than an oven - quite tasty), stews, pasta meals etc... We ate almost 100% vegetarian when we out of the cities.

One thing I did not mention - it is important to have travel insurance that covers medivac (take photocopies of your certificate) - the trekking companies seem to demand this in case you do get altitude sickness. I looked online and took out a policy with insure4less.com.au which covers trekking to 6000m

And a visa - we got ours on arrival at Kathmandu airport, for some reason they are a fair bit cheaper there than getting one from the consulate in Australia (although we did have to wait a while in a queue)

I took a steripen (purchased online from USA) - and used it to treat all drinking water for the three of us. It worked very well.

Most of the teahouses will recharge camera batteries for you for a small fee (you will need a European type plug for your charger)

Dave

[flatfoot]

Hi Flatfoot,
Once again my info is a bit historic (10 years old)- but the teahouses even back then were well equipped & you could buy a coke & Mars Bar along the trail (more expensive the higher/further you go). Big towns like Namche have the lot- including yummy bakeries- I took it upon myself to try every type of 'Apple pie/momo' I could find! You could also buy packets of biscuits etc etc. I think I took a packet of mini mars bars with me from home but that was about it & my 2nd trek into Gokyo I would have had only nepalese stuff- you can also stock up cheaper in Kathmandu .

In regards to altitude sickness- I made sure I took plenty of time on my treks and followed recommended rest days. On the rest days I climbed higher for the day & come back down to lower altitude to sleep to aid acclimitsation. When I went across the Thorung La (5415m) on the Around Annapurna I was ok- out of breath but good but did see others who were struggling/ dizzy/headaches. I had diamox with me too (medication). On the Gokyo trek I also took my time but was already acclimatised from the previous trek so felt great. However, there were heaps of choppers going up the valley to Everest or Gokyo to pick up trekkers who moved too fast- I think this can be a problem of travelling in a group where you are trying to keep up/ or on a schedule.

Attached are a few scanned photos pre-digital era.
The first shows the view from Gokyo Ri of Everest (the big pyramid one with the clouds gusting off the top). The second are the beautiful lakes at Gokyo & the 3rd the airstrip at Lukla- you can see why it is weather dependant- Mountains on the sides and drops over an endge at the start/end!

Great pics! I noticed from Dave's pics that the Lukla airstrip is sealed now. Gokyo Lakes looks like a spectacular place. When I was on the OT, a woman that runs a trekking company explained that side-trips to higher altitudes can help with acclimatisation provided you sleep back at a lower altitude. That sounds like good advice.

[flatfoot]

Most of the teahouses sell snack food - eg mars bars, snickers bars, bounties, coke, fanta, sprite, pringles (and not much more than that except smokes) but more expensive than Kathmandu or Pokara. You can buy biscuits and sintilas (a type of orange/mandarin) from passing porters on their way to Namche. I carried some chocolate bars that I bought in Kathmandu - and ended up not eating them all (the local food is pretty filling). The teahouse menus include - momos (a type of dumpling - steamed or fried, and pretty tasty), dal bhat (what every Nepali eats - two meals a day, a big plateful of rice (bhat) with a curry (mainly potatoes) and/or greens (spinach or bok choy - very fresh - you see it picked from the garden) and a small bowl of dal (lentils) - and it is standard to get seconds. Potatoes (very tasty locally grown) - either boiled or fried (with egg, yak cheese or vegies), noodles, pizza (cooked on a hotplate rather than an oven - quite tasty), stews, pasta meals etc... We ate almost 100% vegetarian when we out of the cities.

I saw your photos of some of your meals. They certainly looked hearty!

One thing I did not mention - it is important to have travel insurance that covers medivac (take photocopies of your certificate) - the trekking companies seem to demand this in case you do get altitude sickness. I looked online and took out a policy with insure4less.com.au which covers trekking to 6000m.

That's good advice!

And a visa - we got ours on arrival at Kathmandu airport, for some reason they are a fair bit cheaper there than getting one from the consulate in Australia (although we did have to wait a while in a queue)

It sounds odd that you can get the visa on arrival ... Although I travel internationally rarely so I'm not sure what's normal.

I took a steripen (purchased online from USA) - and used it to treat all drinking water for the three of us. It worked very well.

I have a steripen I bought online last year. I first used it on the OT a few weeks ago. They're great! Annoyingly mine uses a short fat battery that's difficult to buy. I also have the steripen brand filter which is a useful.

Most of the teahouses will recharge camera batteries for you for a small fee (you will need a European type plug for your charger).

I was wondering about that! My panasonic camera uses custom batteries. I bought cheapie clones online so I could carry three on the OT. The clones seemed to only have about 60% of the performance of the panasonic batteries.

[davidmorr]

I went to Nepal with World Expeditions in November 1997, out to Gokyo. I cannot say that I found anything unsatisfactory about the trip and lots to be pleased about. I have no reason to believe they would have changed significantly, and would go with them again. (I have just come back from a trip to the Middle East with them and found everything as well organised as in Nepal. They even rang everyone in the group up with a detailed questionnaire about our experiences, and tell us they will be changing some things as a result of the feedback.)

Here are a few notes you might find helpful:

1. WE uses local companies to run its trips, so their Nepal trips are run by a company based in Kathmandu, but with WE supervision/training/etc. So, for example, the trip leaders are brought to Australia to be trained to a high level in medical issues so as to be able to recognise and treat problems before they become serious. (Each trip carries a medical kit equipped with a variety of drugs which the leader will dish out as necessary. Apart from anything else, this saves you having to invest in a variety of medications - at Australian prices - that you will probably not use anyway.)

2. The Everest region is mostly populated by Sherpas whereas Annapurna is a different racial group.

3. WE uses tents except in Kathmandu. They were carried by the porters and pitched for us each night, usually in the yard of a teahouse. Meals were all cooked by WE staff, and served either in a room in the teahouse or in a dining tent they erected. No-one in our group got serious diarrhoea, and mild cases were dealt with immediately.

4. All the equipment they provided was good quality. Mountain Designs alpine sleeping bags. Down jackets. The tents were large and quite warm - my mate and I slept with the door half open even when the temp was down as far as -11.

5. WE is very careful to minimise the effect of their trips on the somewhat fragile environment in Nepal. To that end, they are careful not to use local resources and carry most stuff in with them from Kathmandu, and any waste out again. They do not stay at places, for example, that offer hot showers made by burning the local timber. (When I was there, one place had a solar hot water heater. I would guess that they are fairly common now - does anyone know?)

6. Everything was included on the trek except souvenirs and snacks/drinks you bought. I think some meals were not included in Kathmandu.

7. If nothing else, it is a chance to get to know some new people often with similar interests to yourself.

8. Some of the other people have commented that they felt the company groups were too big. I didn't notice that particularly, as people all walk at a different pace and tended to spread out a bit so that you didn't see most of them again until you got to lunch or camp. Maybe they are thinking of the difficulties in making decisions in large groups? Not a problem with WE as most of the decisions have already been made for you.

9. We chose to go with a company because neither of us had been trekking before, and knew few people to ask for advice. Now of course, the Internet provides a wonderful resource to seek information as you have been doing. That said, there are stories all over the place about independent trekkers getting good local guides and getting bad local guides. Maybe it depends on how good you are at negotiating, or recognising whether people are genuine or not, or how much research you have done in advance. Going with a big company is a safe and easy option, albeit more expensive than organising your own trip.

10. In November, the weather was pretty stable. Mornings were often frosty, warming up to a "pleasant" 5-10 degrees by 9am. It was sunny then until the clouds rolled in about 1-2pm, when the temperature would take a rapid dive to close to zero. It caught me once. At home, if it turns cold, I just carry on with what I am doing, and get warm when I go inside. In Nepal, I made the mistake of doing that and got quite chilled without realising it. I suspect I was well on the way to hypothermia before I put on some more clothes.

11. Some useful health sites:

http://www.ciwec-clinic.com/

http://www.himalayanrescue.org/hra/index.php (Very good section on altitude sickness)

12. One lady in our group got mild altitude sickness. She and her husband and one of the guides stayed two nights at one place, then caught up with the rest of the group the next day when the group stayed two nights at one place. (This is one case where you may have to pay more, as you have to pay for the extra night and the guide's wages until you catch up.)

13. I was fairly fit at the time, but found that even at Lukla (2860m - barely higher than Kosciusko), the thin air was noticeable. Exertion would have me puffing and panting. At higher altitudes like Gokyo, it was often a case of taking a step, taking 2 or three breaths, then taking the next step. It took a while to get used to this style of walking.

14. I know people who have travelled multiple times with WE and with Peregrine. There does not seem to be much to choose between them.

Hope this helps.

[davidmorr]

I was wondering about that! My panasonic camera uses custom batteries. I bought cheapie clones online so I could carry three on the OT. The clones seemed to only have about 60% of the performance of the panasonic batteries.

I took hundreds of photos in three weeks, and these were slides where I had to pay for them. With digital, I would probably have taken three times as many.

BTW, don't trust batteries you buy on the track. I bought some that turned out to be way past their use-by date.

[flatfoot]

David thanks for the detailed info on WE / Peregrine. A few comments below.

1. WE uses local companies to run its trips, so their Nepal trips are run by a company based in Kathmandu, but with WE supervision/training/etc. So, for example, the trip leaders are brought to Australia to be trained to a high level in medical issues so as to be able to recognise and treat problems before they become serious. (Each trip carries a medical kit equipped with a variety of drugs which the leader will dish out as necessary. Apart from anything else, this saves you having to invest in a variety of medications - at Australian prices - that you will probably not use anyway.)

I was not aware that they used locals to run their trips. It probably makes sense to try and keep their costs down.

5. WE is very careful to minimise the effect of their trips on the somewhat fragile environment in Nepal. To that end, they are careful not to use local resources and carry most stuff in with them from Kathmandu, and any waste out again. They do not stay at places, for example, that offer hot showers made by burning the local timber. (When I was there, one place had a solar hot water heater. I would guess that they are fairly common now - does anyone know?)

I think I read somewhere (maybe here) that this is more common now.

14. I know people who have travelled multiple times with WE and with Peregrine. There does not seem to be much to choose between them.

WE seem to run trips that are a little longer in duration than the Peregrine trips (comparing trips that encompass Gokyo). I think I prefer WE over Peregrine for that reason.

I'll probably go to a WE info night later in the year but will also look more closely at other options.