Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderation)

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Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderation)

Postby Nuts » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 12:10 pm

Split from marketplace add. Re; advertising (and moderating) porter/ guide services- If you have a business you really should mention the association here on the forum. If not (in this case- have a permit from the park service) then everything you do will also be technically illegal, even portering and even food drops.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Strider » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 12:43 pm

Nuts wrote:If you have a business you really should mention the association. If not then everything you do will be technically illegal, even portering and even food drops.

Perhaps against forum rules, but illegal? There is nothing stopping him from offering these services, to my knowledge.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby frenchy_84 » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 12:46 pm

it is if its in a national park
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Nuts » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 12:51 pm

Illegal (at a state/ regulation level) to make profit or reward (as usually worded) from any activities on reserved lands without a concession, parks, hydro, forestry.
Guide book authors or photographers are largely exempt (so far).
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Strider » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 12:58 pm

Nuts wrote:Illegal (at a regulation level) to make profit from any activities on reserved lands without a concession, parks, hydro, forestry.
Guide book authors or photographers are largely exempt (so far).

Ah - I thought you were speaking from the perspective of requiring an ABN (which she does not). Thanks for clearing that up :)
Last edited by Strider on Mon 04 Mar, 2013 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby frenchy_84 » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 1:01 pm

Solohike74 is a she not a he strider
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Strider » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 1:10 pm

frenchy_84 wrote:Solohike74 is a she not a he strider

Woops! :?
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Nuts » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 1:16 pm

Strider wrote:
Nuts wrote:Illegal (at a regulation level) to make profit from any activities on reserved lands without a concession, parks, hydro, forestry.
Guide book authors or photographers are largely exempt (so far).

Ah - I thought you were speaking from the perspective of requiring an ABN (which he does not). Thanks for clearing that up :)


Well, technically 'yes', to get a concession you need to have a registered business (or operate as a sole trader but that would not be a good idea), therefore an ABN.

To get a concession, she would also need proof that she knows what she is doing, iir there is no such thing as a 'porter', you infer responsibility. If your with them, your a guide!
Insurances, permits, safety equipment, minimum guide numbers, restrictions on type of tracks and access and advertising... the list goes on..

As you can imagine there is a certain level of sour grapes in an industry expected to contribute to a sustainable future.. but this is not the main reason for (me) discussing this (here). I really don't want to make a big deal of the topic but feel these things do need to be mentioned, if not for the Solohike' then for any prospective clients. I'll leave it to someone else to moderate (if they choose).
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Strider » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 1:23 pm

Nuts wrote:Well, technically 'yes', to get a concession you need to have a registered business (or operate as a sole trader but that would not be a good idea), therefore an ABN

A sole trader and a registered business are two unrelated things.

Sole trader just means the business is not a partnership or company. It is simply a type of business structure.

Registered business means it has an ABN. However, an ABN is not required for hobby businesses, except in this instance as you have pointed out.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Nuts » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 1:31 pm

Yes, more to the point (in this case) it defines the level of personal responsibility you (and any personal assets) have to your operations. May differ in NSW & VIC but I could imagine the regs around offering services being even more restricted (not less). As I said, many people might not care (may not have much to loose) but 'clients' should at least be aware of the other assurances of a proper concession, what they get for their money.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 04 Mar, 2013 7:51 pm

I wouldn't be worried about the legal technicalities here, after all it is a personal service that very few people in OZ will ever use, most of us are too tight to pay anyone to carry our bags unless it is at Nepali rates and I can't see SH74 working for $5- and a bowl of rice a day.

SH74 if you are willing to work that cheap I have a job for you soon
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby KANANGRABOYD » Fri 08 Mar, 2013 8:19 pm

I thought people would say " great good on you for doing this" - Not trying to put down this person/service and point out technical aspects, whic in all honesty, I don't see the state or Federal Govt persecuting.
Good on you for offering this Poerter service!
Are you big brother Nuts??? - Kind of wondering why you posted your comment, in all seriousness??????? Do you really care if someone is willing to carry gear into a place for a few extra bucks???
Sheesh!
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Miyata610 » Fri 08 Mar, 2013 8:49 pm

KANANGRABOYD wrote:I thought people would say " great good on you for doing this" - Not trying to put down this person/service and point out technical aspects, whic in all honesty, I don't see the state or Federal Govt persecuting.
Good on you for offering this Poerter service!
Are you big brother Nuts??? - Kind of wondering why you posted your comment, in all seriousness??????? Do you really care if someone is willing to carry gear into a place for a few extra bucks???
Sheesh!


Some people on this forum DO go to the trouble of getting the required permissions and insurances to do this kind of work. It's a difficult and convoluted process requiring lots of documentation and justification. There are also many many rules and regulations to comply with.

A friendly reminder that these processes are necessary seems a very reasonable thing to do.

Edit: yes they do pursue it. Certainly in Tasmania.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Picaro » Fri 08 Mar, 2013 9:01 pm

The girl offered portering, not guiding. Someone else converted the thread to guiding.
If she has the wherewithall to carry a pack...fine.
Lets not get all namby pamby nanny state Pc about a lass trying to get along. All things being equal, I'd rather go bush with someone with guts rather than a certificate.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Miyata610 » Fri 08 Mar, 2013 9:11 pm

Picaro wrote:The girl offered portering, not guiding. Someone else converted the thread to guiding.
If she has the wherewithall to carry a pack...fine.
Lets not get all namby pamby nanny state Pc about a lass trying to get along. All things being equal, I'd rather go bush with someone with guts rather than a certificate.


Believe me, you very much need exactly the same BS to be a porter (or food dropper) as you do to be a guide.

The TAS PWS will and do pursue it.

I know.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Nuts » Fri 08 Mar, 2013 9:17 pm

Yep, guide/porter Picaro, that was me.

Miyata610 wrote:Some people on this forum DO go to the trouble of getting the required permissions and insurances to do this kind of work. It's a difficult and convoluted process requiring lots of documentation and justification. There are also many many rules and regulations to comply with.

A friendly reminder that these processes are necessary seems a very reasonable thing to do.

Edit: yes they do pursue it. Certainly in Tasmania.


Exactly Phil.

'In all seriousness'???? KB, well- Yes!
To add to what Phil said, I (for one) regard guiding people into national parks and wilderness a profession, i would take it as seriously as would any other professional and i'm unapologetic in defending it as such. For the purposes of stating so, 'portering' is no different.

As far as bothering to mention the 'technicalities' each time it comes up on here, as i said, i really don't want to make a big deal of the topic, in an ideal world someone from parks would be on here doing so (ok..perhaps not this time on a friday night lol). So yes, it was intended as a friendly reminder.

'Technically' offering this here is also a breach of forum rules, 'do I 'Really' care? that it's still here kind of speaks for itself so far... It hasn't been moderated, i don't expect we'll need a section for weekend amateur guides but it hasn't -so far- become a big deal.

I can say that if we have to go through the 'big brother' sledge or other challenging scenarios I request anyone to take it to a private message, we are all polite and friendly on here.
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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby andrewbish » Fri 08 Mar, 2013 10:19 pm

I had a quick look online but couldn't find anything on regulations regarding guiding and portering in national parks. Can anyone direct me to a link? It would be good to get the source, if it's freely available.

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Re: Porter in South Eastern Australia

Postby Onestepmore » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 12:06 am

On a different, but related note, if you gave a lift to someone to a walk start (or wherever) and they contributed to the petrol costs, does this mean (by the same arguments offered above) that they would be subject to the same regulations? I mean you could technically say that the car was being hired, or the driver was being employed as a private chauffeur.....
I'm playing devil's advocate here I know

Poor Solohike74 - I bet you're sitting there going 'why did I ever post that?'
/huggles
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby Nuts » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 5:22 am

Or someone sitting in the waiting room offering amateur consults at a reasonable price :roll:

I feel the irony in now splitting this topic, if you 'midnighters' read back through you may as well?
Anyhow, not much choice really.. At least now it's open to discus moderation or legislation, (or hitching or whatever)...

Good morning.
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby doogs » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 8:23 am

I am sure Solohike74 wasn't trying to put anyone out of a job with her offer or wanting to make a profit, merely some funding her forays into the wilderness areas. I can see the trekking and food drop folks getting a bit cheesed off with this proposition and I do understand their positions but there are examples of this sort of thing happening on the overland track on a regular basis. Should it be illegal for more inexperienced walkers to buy their more experienced friends an overland track pass to do the walk with them, surely this is a form of payment?
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby matagi » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 8:37 am

doogs wrote:I am sure Solohike74 wasn't trying to put anyone out of a job with her offer or wanting to make a profit, merely some funding her forays into the wilderness areas. I can see the trekking and food drop folks getting a bit cheesed off with this proposition and I do understand their positions but there are examples of this sort of thing happening on the overland track on a regular basis. Should it be illegal for more inexperienced walkers to buy their more experienced friends an overland track pass to do the walk with them, surely this is a form of payment?

You can understand people getting a tad cheesed off when there are a number of guides and food droppers on the forum, none of whom advertise their services in public posts (although they may well do so via PM).

I don't know about elsewhere, but on the Overland Track, everybody knows everybody so if someone tries to start doing food drops or porterage or even guiding without the appropriate documentation then it will come to the attention of Parks and they are suprisingly tenacious in pursuing the matter.
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby stepbystep » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 10:09 am

matagi wrote:
doogs wrote:I am sure Solohike74 wasn't trying to put anyone out of a job with her offer or wanting to make a profit, merely some funding her forays into the wilderness areas. I can see the trekking and food drop folks getting a bit cheesed off with this proposition and I do understand their positions but there are examples of this sort of thing happening on the overland track on a regular basis. Should it be illegal for more inexperienced walkers to buy their more experienced friends an overland track pass to do the walk with them, surely this is a form of payment?

You can understand people getting a tad cheesed off when there are a number of guides and food droppers on the forum, none of whom advertise their services in public posts (although they may well do so via PM).

I don't know about elsewhere, but on the Overland Track, everybody knows everybody so if someone tries to start doing food drops or porterage or even guiding without the appropriate documentation then it will come to the attention of Parks and they are suprisingly tenacious in pursuing the matter.


Well I've had friends come to the state, pay me for food/fuel etc and in exchange I have guided them on walks and supplied tents/gear etc. So sue me :D There is no way they would have used services provided by nuts or miyata.

I think Solohike, IF she doesn't have the appropriate permits was just being a touch naive, how about benefit of the doubt guys? Perhaps a case of the old 'she'll be right' Australian attitude, rather than chastise her publicly a subtly placed PM would have been more tactful. As it is you've probably chased someone off the forum who probably had no ill intent.
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby matagi » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 10:38 am

stepbystep wrote:Well I've had friends come to the state, pay me for food/fuel etc and in exchange I have guided them on walks and supplied tents/gear etc. So sue me :D There is no way they would have used services provided by nuts or miyata.


You have no idea of the bureaucratic can of worms which exists in Tas regarding this matter. Parks has some very interesting interpretations regarding duty of care if you are being paid for services, which are quite broad in their application and even extend so far as responsibility to individuals who are not part of your group. :shock:

stepbystep wrote:I think Solohike, IF she doesn't have the appropriate permits was just being a touch naive, how about benefit of the doubt guys? Perhaps a case of the old 'she'll be right' Australian attitude, rather than chastise her publicly a subtly placed PM would have been more tactful. As it is you've probably chased someone off the forum who probably had no ill intent.

I do agree a quiet PM would have been more appropriate, perhaps pointing out she could not legally do what she is offering to do in Tas and perhaps suggesting she check the appropriate regulations in NSW and VIC, which were the other places she mentioned.
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby Nuts » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 11:01 am

Matagai is right, a can of worms.

Here, the other way to handle it would be removing the post and a private pm. Or....as I thought happened, make a simple comment for the benefit of the OP.. and others to come. My initial post was accounting for the possibility that she does have a permit.. :? in which case it needs to be declared if advertising kosher services, simple :? I hardly see that as being 'chastised' :?

If anyone seriously believes that freelance services should be able to be advertised here and that the forum owner should ignore the possibility that these services will be illegal... perhaps pm them. I'm sure if you read back and can still maybe suggest a well-thought-through procedure for dealing with such things- really, I at least am all ears.

Until then i'll assume iv'e dealt with it in a fair manner, why iv'e even opened a topic to include discussing moderation action.. tough crowd lol :|
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby stepbystep » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 11:18 am

matagi wrote:
stepbystep wrote:Well I've had friends come to the state, pay me for food/fuel etc and in exchange I have guided them on walks and supplied tents/gear etc. So sue me :D There is no way they would have used services provided by nuts or miyata.


You have no idea of the bureaucratic can of worms which exists in Tas regarding this matter. Parks has some very interesting interpretations regarding duty of care if you are being paid for services, which are quite broad in their application and even extend so far as responsibility to individuals who are not part of your group. :shock:


Oh I am well aware of the red tape involved. I have friends and associates on all sides of this one! I was of course being a touch facetious, and was referring to the age old system of fairs, fair when traveling with friends.

Somehow I don't think you'd be all over it if you weren't involved in the biz nuts? Just think a moderator should deal with these matters privately, but hey I'm probably wrong, I'm used to that :wink:
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby Nuts » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 11:36 am

stepbystep wrote:Somehow I don't think you'd be all over it if you weren't involved in the biz nuts? Just think a moderator should deal with these matters privately, but hey I'm probably wrong, I'm used to that :wink:


I can't help it if your wrong :wink: I do try to agree with you where I can :)

There may be some effect of knowing the industry. Here I was just stating the site rules and legal implications, there isn't much confusion. Business wise I really didn't consider this an issue (or I may have been tempted to try plan A...) For the forum (perhaps also in some hope for the industry) I thought it worth a mention, public cause the effort (to me) is more for future reference than for the OP.

I have a bit of spare time but i'm just repeating things in different ways, it's not really my conversation, still just trying to redeem the good day folks could otherwise have. Still interested cause some involved here often have input worth reading.
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby andrewbish » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 3:17 pm

Nuts As the most vocal person on this topic and as I understand it someone who makes a living from guiding and portering in Tas, are you able to provide links to the applicable Tas regulations?
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby Nuts » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 3:34 pm

Lol, i'm trying not to be, i seem to have trouble being understood sometimes.

The Op mentions Tassie, there will be similar in your Vic legislation. Apologies I may have assumed everyone would know that you can't just set up shop:

TAS

National Parks and Reserves Management Act 2002 (No. 62 of 2002)
Requested: 9 Mar 2013
Consolidated as at: 16 Aug 2004

38. Prohibition on certain activities without business licence

(1) A person who is not the holder of a business licence must not, in reserved land that is also Crown land –

(a) sell or hire out, offer or expose for sale or hiring out, or have in his or her possession for selling or hiring out, any article, material or other thing; or

(b) provide, offer to provide or hold himself or herself out as willing to provide any service or facility for any monetary or other consideration; or

(c) take or cause to be taken any photograph or cine, video, movie or television film for or with a view to any monetary or other consideration.

Maybe I should delete subsection C from here??? :)
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby andrewbish » Sat 09 Mar, 2013 4:38 pm

Thanks. Yes, (c) is interesting for this forum though the vast majority of nature photo buffs here will be (rank, in my case :) ) amateurs.
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Re: Advertising Freelance services within parks (& moderatio

Postby Nuts » Sun 10 Mar, 2013 10:16 am

I was surprised to see that change, haven't heard of it being enforced here, perhaps it's a regulation in place for future use. Guidebook authors might be a different story, maybe they should be required to hold a permit so parks has some say in what they put out?

Anyhow.. probably outside what needs to be a concern on the forum (in regards to advertising, safety, legalities so on)?
The original post is in the mod section for discussion, I can't see how we can have such posts here (keeping in mind that they either 'aren't at all' or 'open to everyone'). I don't know whether it would be open for discussion (not my call) but if some of those brushing off concerns.. earlier in the topic have something to add please post.
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