Scarp vs 2nd arrow

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Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby wildwanderer » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 9:12 am

Looking at both these tents.

https://www.wildernessequipment.com.au/ ... een-apple/

https://www.tarptent.com/product/scarp-1/ us dollars.

I like the scarp due to its lower weight. However I have mate willing to sell me a 2nd arrow for less.

Looking for a tent suitable for alpine conditions in Tassie, New Zealand and Kosciuszko.

Mostly shoulder season with occasional snow use. High wind is likely to be my most commonly encountered hazard. Will just be me in the tent.

Pros and cons for my use case?
Likely won't be bringing the scarp crossing poles unless really bad weather is forecast.
Is the 2nd Arrow overkill?
Which is quicker to pitch?
Do both do ok on tent platforms?
Which is better for small off track sites?
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Hiking Exped » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 9:36 am

Not used either so cannot comment on specifics. However, worth considering vestibule size too. In bad Alpine weather i have learned it’s good to have a safe dry space to cook in and hang wet clothing. Safety crucial, so many vestibules are just inadequate for this. The Arrow seems good in that regard. Just a thought.
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby JohnnoMcJohnno » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 10:35 am

I have a Scarp 2. Good tent, heaps of room, feels robust, needs extra guys in windy conditions. I've never had it in snow weather, but I wouldn't trust it without the crossing poles if snow was about. The areas either-side of the hoop pole just feel like they would allow substantial snow build up. The conundrum is always whether to take the risk or carry the extra 500g. I believe the Scarp 1 is more robust than the 2, and being smaller (with a bigger diameter pole) you may get away with not taking the crossing poles except in the very worst conditions.

I find the Scarp 2 simple to pitch without the crossing poles. With the crossing poles it's not difficult, just more fiddly and takes a bit more time. I've never pitched it on platforms, but I can't see it being an issue - you would just anchor one end then pull the tent taut, then anchor the other end. It is very similar to a tunnel tent (like the 2nd arrow) in that regard. It is pretty much free-standing with the crossing poles so if you take those it certainly won't be a problem.

The 2nd Arrow looks to me like it would handle snow better. Less fiddly to erect than the Scarp with crossing poles. Weighs about the same as the Scarp 1 with crossing poles. It's front entry which is sometimes a bit easier to find a tent site for.

Dunno. Tough choice. I lean towards the 2nd Arrow for purely Alpine conditions. Don't think you'd really go wrong with either.
Last edited by JohnnoMcJohnno on Sun 23 Jan, 2022 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 11:10 am

Never used either but my experience says that the bigger the vestibule the better the tent is for bad weather and you cannot guarantee good weather above the snow line. Also don't discount the need for more room in bad conditions, tent fever is real and a little extra space helps there.
I'm sure that the owners of both will jump in and give their opinions. My personal preference is for tunnel tents for Alpine conditions and there the more guy points the better but that does add weight although pegs and cord weigh little and mouse parachutes/fabric deadmen even less.
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Franco » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 12:10 pm

Lots of comments about the vestibule size and yes I also think that in Winter a large vestibule comes handy but don't forget that you can either fold the Scarp inner back or take most or all of it off from under the fly. Takes about 2 minutes to undo and the same to replace .
Scarp 1 fly.JPG
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Tortoise » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 12:18 pm

G'day WW,
I have a Scarp 1 (with a now-dead floor) and a First Arrow. I think the 2nd Arrow would function better than the 1st in high wind conditions.

The windiest 36 hours the Scarp has endured was at High Moor in the W Arthurs. I wasn't using the crossing poles, and it was pummelled+++. Apart from a 2 mm tear in the inner at a corner, which may have already been there, and which held up then and for years afterwards with the superglue I put on it, the Scarp held up fine, and I felt pretty secure in it.

The windiest I've had the First Arrow in, was a night on a completely exposed mountain top, pitched partly on rock, partly on grass. The wind was so strong it was hard to stand up without being flung to the ground. The Arrow moved around more than the Scarp, but it held up fine, and I felt pretty secure in it.

The Scarp is quicker to pitch. One pole to insert instead of 2, and simple to get a good, taut pitch. Except maybe when the tent is wet. The poles are easier to slide through wet sleeves in the First Arrow, and I assume the 2nd Arrow would be the same.

I hate tent platforms for any non-free-standing tent. Other people are fine with them. Either are OK, though. The pitchloc corners of the Scarp may make it a bit easier to get a good pitch.

Scarp has a smaller footprint, so is easier to fit into small, rough sites. But both have a wide enough inner to cope with some lumps and bumps. Edit: Oops - the photo I put in initially was my Akto, not the Scarp. The 2nd Arrow would cope with bigger lumps, though.

The biggest difference in my mind is that the Scarp has a not very strong floor, and the 2nd Arrow has a much sturdier one. I'm leaning towards getting one over another Scarp, both for that reason, and because I LOVE the versatile design of the Arrows.

I've had the Scarp in an unforecast 30 cm of snow overnight, without the crossing poles. I had to push the snow off the roof a few times during the night, which I probably wouldn't have had to do with the Arrow. But it did fine.
Last edited by Tortoise on Sun 23 Jan, 2022 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Tortoise » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 12:28 pm

As far as vestibule size goes, I agree with Franco. I pulled the inner back to increase the size of my kitchen when carefully boiling water with the Scarp, and clipped it back to make a bigger bedroom when I went to sleep. I found the clips really fiddly, and after the first time, never took the whole inner out again.

In some ways, I preferred the 2 separate vestibules of the Scarp. Not wanting to gross anybody out, but on the very snowy night, with both doors enclosed by very snowy shrubbery, I made one vestibule the bathroom, and kept the other as the kitchen.

But the Arrow vestibule makes it feel like a palace. Not sure about the inner lengths, but taller people would have the inner much closer to their face in the Scarp.

Now if WE would bring out a 2nd Arrow in DCF, maybe that would be the perfect tent for me!
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Franco » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 1:28 pm

"I found the clips really fiddly"
I have seen comments like that for mitten hooks , the trick is to twist them out, like this :

I did that for a guy at BPL because he was going on and on about the difficulty of using them...
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Tortoise » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 1:33 pm

Hi Franco,

I've watched that video several times, and attempted to do it myself like that. Maybe it's the arthritis at the base of the thumb that makes it hard, and/or the angle I'm lying /crouching at with short arms when trying to re-attach the inner to the pitched outer. i tried lots of times at home, and it never worked for me.
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby andrewp » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 3:15 pm

franco wrote:the trick is to twist them out

I find it easy to do with my D rings, but a friend has a newer model that has O rings and I can't get it to work. Do you know if the current model has O or D rings?
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby mtrain » Sun 23 Jan, 2022 4:45 pm

We have a first arrow that we bought to use on annual trips to southwest tassie. It is a palace in the wet but we never take it walking any more as it is ridiculously heavy and I don’t trust it for bad weather. I know they have a good reputation but we have not had good luck with ours. One trip we had two separate pole failures in calm conditions. Nice sunny days with a relaxed pitch and poles just snapped. It was not user error. The fly seam tape peeled off and we eventually had the poles and fly replaced under warranty. The inner came with little cord loops tied on to extend some of the attachment points to support the inner and the the fly won’t pitch tight with all the inner connectors connected. Apart from those issues I think there are way better designed tents available these days.
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby wildwanderer » Mon 24 Jan, 2022 6:11 am

Thanks all.

Really good feedback and advice especially on the vestibule size and pros of two vestibules

How does the 2nd arrow go when hit broadside by wind? I'm estimating the scarp likely wouldn't be much better as without the crossing poles it's also a tunnel tent of sorts.

I haven't owned a tunnel tent since my NZ made minaret purchased 20+ years ago!
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby johnrs » Mon 24 Jan, 2022 8:18 am

HI WW
The Second Arrow has side guys so is fine in crosswinds.
Both tents are fine for 4 seasons.
The Arrow is very solid in high winds and palatial for one and big enough for two.
The vestibule is fine for cooking
The Scarp 1 is a little lighter if you are mostly planning solo use and side entry and good vestibules.

The Minaret was an absolute classic design!
Best wishes
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Franco » Mon 24 Jan, 2022 9:06 am

andrewp wrote:
franco wrote:the trick is to twist them out

I find it easy to do with my D rings, but a friend has a newer model that has O rings and I can't get it to work. Do you know if the current model has O or D rings?

Sorry I don't.
I am no longer up to date with details on the new shelters, the days when I used to fiddle with (and seam seal) all the shelters are gone.
BTW, It is much easier to undo those clips if you can hold the O or D ring but yes , one probably does need to have strong and nimble fingers for it to work.
Mostly I was trying to point out that one does not need to ush the tongue in as I have seen people doing.
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby bernieq » Sat 29 Jan, 2022 11:17 pm

wildwanderer wrote:Pros and cons for my use case?
Likely won't be bringing the scarp crossing poles unless really bad weather is forecast.
Is the 2nd Arrow overkill?
Which is quicker to pitch?
Do both do ok on tent platforms?
Which is better for small off track sites?

I have both Scarp1 and 2nd Arrow (& an older 1st Arrow). The Scarp is pre-current (but the differences are minimal).

I've used both in Tassie but in NZ (South Island) I use the 1st Arrow. In NZ SI using the Scarp above the treeline, I'd be more confident with the crossing poles.

In any snow, you'd need the crossing poles for the Scarp, otherwise probably not. Recently had the Scarp in 6hrs of torrential rain (100mm?) & strong wind gusts up on the Cobberas - had 2cm of water flowing both sides (& presumably under) the tent with no problem. However, you'd need the crossing poles if snow is possible.

2nd Arrow is much bigger inside & higher, one vestibule but bigger & better for cooking. No, not overkill - but it is big enough for two, just.

Scarp is a faster pitch - 1 pole to thread instead of 2. With the Scarp, I pitch with inner & fly joined. Even when wet, the inner is easily dried with a quick wipe if necessary.

Yes, both OK on a platform but the 2nd Arrow has a bigger footprint.

See response above.


In summary, I like both tents but the Scarp is getting more use. I tend to choose the 2nd Arrow when I'm sharing with a friend & conditions are likely to force cooking inside. Sharing the 2nd Arrow means <1kg each compared to 1.6kg if I take the Scarp (including a tyvek footprint with both).

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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby johnw » Sun 30 Jan, 2022 10:47 am

wildwanderer wrote:How does the 2nd arrow go when hit broadside by wind?

The only time I've been truly terrified in a tent but the 2nd Arrow held up magnificently. Mine is the older, heavier version prior to the current "UL" model.
We were camped at the north end of Lake Meston in Tassie. Overnight it blew an absolute gale and I was convinced that the tent would be ripped to shreds.
After that trip I checked the BOM records for the nearest weather stations, which confirmed wind gusts in excess of 80 km/h.
We got a dramatic buffeting all night, and a fair dusting of snow as well (this was New Years Eve morning btw). Tent suffered no damage whatsoever.
Probably didn't cop it full on broadside for the whole time as I'd pitched the narrow end towards the lake (into the wind), but certainly there were many gusts from the sides.
I agree with many of the comments here. That tent has long been considered "bombproof" and I think it was originally designed with alpine conditions in mind.
There used to be lot of information about how they evolved that design on the old WE website, but don't know if that has carried across to STS.
But mine isn't light at 2.2 kg and yes, it will just take 2 people (snugly) if they aren't large. It is very comfortable for one.
I haven't used it for a long time because of the weight but would definitely take it if I was considering camping above the treeline.
p.s. I did have it fully guyed in the situation above.
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby bernieq » Sun 30 Jan, 2022 2:52 pm

johnw, you've reminded me (how could I forget) of a night south of Mt Sprent on the Wilmot Range in SW Tassie - sharing the 2nd Arrow. We were camped on a completely open plain on top of the range at about 800m elevation, West of Lake Pedder. Winds were in excess of 100kph (BoM measured gusts of 100kph at Scott's Peak which is further inland and half the elevation). We had rain, sleet, hail and the tent was in a bog (it is Tassie). Temperature around -5 C but the wind-chill would have made it more like -15 C.

We actually had the big end of the tent facing the wind as the slope required that - it wasn't a problem for the tent. Side buffeting also wouldn't be an issue, particularly if guyed out.

I have to say we felt pretty comfortable in the tent - with all 4 guys pegged out - perhaps the worst conditions I've experienced. We pulled out the next morning as conditions were worsening! Fingertips were tingling for several months.

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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby legend » Mon 31 Jan, 2022 9:54 am

I've now seen two 2nd Arrow tents with broken poles due to wind and heavy snow. I've seen the Scarp handle 100kph winds (130kph at Thredbo Top Station near North Ramshead (Snowy Mountains).
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 31 Jan, 2022 11:04 am

There is a large difference in ultimate failure strength between the ULs 9mm poles and the 11.5mm poles of the X series, would these have been the smaller poles that broke?
Way back when the Eureka Caddis was most popular the poles often broke and there the solution was usually to use double poles, storm strength is always going to be a compromise if you want to keep the weight down.
My own tunnel uses 9mm poles but Helsport do recommend doubling up poles in extreme conditions
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Re: Scarp vs 2nd arrow

Postby andrewa » Mon 31 Jan, 2022 8:57 pm

Hilleberg Nallo GT….or equivalent,….I know that’s not what you’re asking, but it provides enough stability for winter wanders in heavy snow, though may need some help with snow shedding, and plenty of vestibule space.

If I didn’t already own one, I’d consider the lighter version - not sure what it’s called, but it’s pretty rare in our winters to get a thrashing in a tent.

Vestibule space is v important. As is inside space. If there are 2 of you, buy a 3p tent. Just my thoughts.

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