Macpac Traverse Jacket

[sthughes]

Does the Macpac Holyford use the same eVent membrane as the Traverse, or is it an inferior one?

If it's the same then I'd agree with Wayno, lab tests mean bugger all as my Holyford performs only slightly better than a plastic bag in the real world.

[blacksheep]

Does the Macpac Holyford use the same eVent membrane as the Traverse, or is it an inferior one?

If it's the same then I'd agree with Wayno, lab tests mean bugger all as my Holyford performs only slightly better than a plastic bag in the real world.

Same membrane, but different face fabric and different mill finishing/ applying dwr. Based on inconsistent reports on hollyford ( same good, some bad) we have moved a new fabric into the next hollyfords. It seems there were dwr variences in that fabric from what I have read here.

[wayno]

yup when the surface has wetted out nothing will breathe and when that happens you need ventilation like pit zips or vented pockets to help reduce condensation inside. otherwise you might as well go and buy a plastic poncho at the $2 shop it will work just as well as hundreds of dollars worth of high tech coat

[sthughes]

Also the face fabric makes a largw difference I think, even when dry the Holyford isn't even in the same ballpark as my Montane Air.

[wayno]

thinner fabric, more threads, more gaps between threads for the moisture to move through.... more moisture moved compared to a thicker fabric, comparative tests show that more breathable membranes can be outperformed by less breathable ones to a certain extent where the less breathable one has a thinner face fabric

[blacksheep]

I'd be interested in seeing these tests Wayno, where can I view them?

[Tony]

While some materials breath better than others they all only breath a little.

I have owned a Traverse Jacket for nearly two years now and I love it, I have used it a few times in rain in both summer and in winter conditions, I have used it while it was snowing and in very cold conditions on snow as a wind break and I have never experienced wetting inside, but I have noticed the DWR has worn off a bit where the pack shoulder straps sit.

Tony

[wayno]

actually i've found the backpackinglight article, , some very thorough testing was done of various technology membranes
you have to pay to view the article
in one of the tests it pits neoshell the most breathable of the membranes it tested against gore tex proshell. the gore tex performed pretty much identically to the neoshell.


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... part3.html

more details here and how the testing was done and more comparative analysis

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... part2.html

[Tony]

Hi Wayno,

They are good articles, though it has been a while since I have read them, this article by Andrew Skurka puts rainwear breathability into some perspective.

There is also some good information on rainwear and clothing in general and other very interesting article links on Mark Verbers site.

Tony

[Pongo]

Does the Macpac Holyford use the same eVent membrane as the Traverse, or is it an inferior one?

If it's the same then I'd agree with Wayno, lab tests mean bugger all as my Holyford performs only slightly better than a plastic bag in the real world.

Same membrane, but different face fabric and different mill finishing/ applying dwr. Based on inconsistent reports on hollyford ( same good, some bad) we have moved a new fabric into the next hollyfords. It seems there were dwr variences in that fabric from what I have read here.

Unfortunately mine doesn't do it's job either. Shame, because I love the cut and durability of the shell. Blacksheep, your mob have insisted on retreating it instead of replacing, will this actually help or is it a fabric problem? (OT I know, but it came up).

[wayno]

traverse uses thinner face fabric, smoother surface too which helps the water run off better.

[blacksheep]

Does the Macpac Holyford use the same eVent membrane as the Traverse, or is it an inferior one?

If it's the same then I'd agree with Wayno, lab tests mean bugger all as my Holyford performs only slightly better than a plastic bag in the real world.

Same membrane, but different face fabric and different mill finishing/ applying dwr. Based on inconsistent reports on hollyford ( same good, some bad) we have moved a new fabric into the next hollyfords. It seems there were dwr variences in that fabric from what I have read here.

Unfortunately mine doesn't do it's job either. Shame, because I love the cut and durability of the shell. Blacksheep, your mob have insisted on retreating it instead of replacing, will this actually help or is it a fabric problem? (OT I know, but it came up).

Yes, it will be a fix. The issue is one of dwr, if after this is done it will almost certainly be sweet, if not, you know where to find me. Cheers, cam.

[Ent]

A bit OT but as it came up what are people's experience with re-treating the DWR finish? I had a few goes with not much change. Used Nuts' approach and this at least worked for two walks but still not a patch on the factory DWR treatment. Gore-tex DWR appears to be much better than eVent but still will eventually degrade.

I have seen Sthughes repeated attempts with his Holllyford only to have them fail a few hours in. The smoother surface of my Gore-tex pro-shell stands up much better but still by day three it is suffering. Admittedly my Vista has been much loved but still looks new after a wash and dry. Unlike the Hollyford that is pilling as is my Montane Venturer. jacket. At least the Montane works. My Air is great but not really a rough terrain jacket. But is much more breathable than the mid weight Venture jacket.

Cheers

And thanks Tony and Wayno for the links. Nice to see a bit of science on the tread.

[wayno]

no probs ent, you can explain the science to me then

did you iron your jackets after applying the dwr?

[Ent]

Iron? What is an Iron The answer is no. I found the best was to wash the garment, lay it flat, spray liberal quantities of the DWR liquid gold, let dry on, turn garment over and repeat. Then tumble dry.

Now found the Miele mega expensive washer/dryer has a outer garment cycle that works well but then found the tape undoing on a non Goretex Wilderness Wear jacket by the looks from the heat. The PP Vista not an ounce of problem with the tape despite frequent treatments.

The PP Vista with regular washing and drying managed 3 years before the DWR started to fail after a day or two. Now it lasts a day but the second day not so good. Actually scrub comprises it quicker. As said the Montane eVent works ok but the DWR failed much quicker and Sthughes experience is tumble drying them may be the cause of delamination. My Air has started but not as bad as Sthughes was. The second one of Sthughes looks ok I think. He his better to discuss that issue. The Hollyford was a di6saster, proud owner quickly became soggy unhappy owner and as mentioned despite various DWR treatments the jacket is firmly in the plastic bag class of breath-ability.

I have a cheap pair of Three Peaks waterproof pants that I scored and interesting to compare them to my Gore-tex PP and eVent RAB pairs. They claim breathable but the other two are light years in front. In fact have not found much difference between eVent and Gore-tex in the real world. Garment design so much more important and the DWR treatment.

Cheers

[Strider]

Yes, it will be a fix. The issue is one of dwr, if after this is done it will almost certainly be sweet, if not, you know where to find me. Cheers, cam.

Cam, would this treatment be worth doing using on a Traverse to further improve DWR performance?

[sthughes]

I've tried ironing etc, actually due to the delam issues with my first Air it is all I use on that one. The Hollyford has been tumbled dried and ironed, might try throwing it in an incinerator next! My Kathmandu Gore tex is tumble dried always and it seems to work okay.
Have found Grangers wash in DWR most effective, do wonder if it effects breath ability using wash in product though? Since trying it I have only used the Holyford in proper rain - it was a little better DWR wise but hard to tell if breath ability was any worse.

[wayno]

I've tried ironing etc, actually due to the delam issues with my first Air it is all I use on that one. The Hollyford has been tumbled dried and ironed, might try throwing it in an incinerator next! My Kathmandu Gore tex is tumble dried always and it seems to work okay.
Have found Grangers wash in DWR most effective, do wonder if it effects breath ability using wash in product though? Since trying it I have only used the Holyford in proper rain - it was a little better DWR wise but hard to tell if breath ability was any worse.

the wash in products are supposed to be designed not to affect breathability..