Bushwalk Australia

Hi all,

I'd been hearing about the place recently that some brands of plastic water bottles may not be safe for use, as they leach chemicals from the plastic into the water with every re-use, depending on the type of plastic. Also, some people have concerns about the aluminium bottles as well, as aluminium is known to be linked with alzheimers disease (mind you if you were concerned about that you'd never drink your tap water anyway).

I just came across this site, which has info on it about water bottles. It seems to suggest that you're at most risk from certain chemicals in the plastic by reusing PET bottles (coke or mt franklin bottles for example), and also at risk from the purpose-made plastic plastic water bottles (presumably, like Naglene bottles, although you couldn't say that for sure without knowing what pastic they're made of, ie. what number).

Anyway, I'm not trying to influence or frighten anyone here, but I thought you all might be interested to know.

L8r.

Speculator wrote:Also, some people have concerns about the aluminium bottles as well, as aluminium is known to be linked with alzheimers disease

Actually, that belief has been described as a case of "neuromythology" - something about the brain that "everybody knows" which is probably not really true.

The current state of scientific research into aluminium and alzheimer's shows that there is no evidence of a causal link between Al intake and development of Alzheimer's.

(I'm not familiar with the research about PET and health issues, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if that too was a case of "no evidence".)

Cheers,
Alliecat

I stay away from Nalgene too. I've read quite a bit about it leaching stuff into fluids.

Double check the info on Alumiminum and I also read about the the Plastic bottles including Polycarbonate as in Nalgene type ,read further and they suggest "Sigg" type Aluminium bottles go figure eh!! (they are lined with plastic ?)
I have come to the conclusion that living ,eating and drinking will kill you as opposed to train crash ,car crash ,plane crash,or even jealous lover type crash/smash/gash and natural death when its your time

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You can buy plastic bottles that wont leach the harmfull chemicals at most healthfood shops and Organic stores.
If I remember correctly the recycle triangle has a number inside and it should be 6 or above to be ok.
Regarding the leaching, there is a number of circumstances that will cause it to happen at a greater rate: leaving the bottle in the sun, in warm to hot environments, hot liquids and once they get beyond a few months old.

Plastic milk bottles would have to be the worst. If you're used to them, you can taste the plastic in the milk and it's quite unpleasant. I still use cartons. Maybe if I wasn't used to cartons, I'd be able to taste the wax, or whatever it is that they're lined with.

I guess milk bottles use the cheapest nastiest plastic out there, because they know the milk is never going to be in the bottles for long (because it goes off quicker than most other plastic bottle items). However, it's long enough to make the milk taste revolting!

Earthling wrote:You can buy plastic bottles that wont leach the harmfull chemicals at most healthfood shops and Organic stores.
If I remember correctly the recycle triangle has a number inside and it should be 6 or above to be ok.
Regarding the leaching, there is a number of circumstances that will cause it to happen at a greater rate: leaving the bottle in the sun, in warm to hot environments, hot liquids and once they get beyond a few months old.

I actually think I read that one of the worst plastics was no. 7 (I think 3 was not so flash either). It's basically a catch-all for different types of compounds and you never quite know what you're getting. One of the things that's a real grey area apparently, is that they don't know what levels of the BPA chemicals are enough to be concerned about, because the effects take a long time to show up, there's been no real studies done to determine the quantity that's dangerous. They've known that BPA can cause problems since the 1930's though, so there's little question that in some quantity or other it is dangerous.

I'm going to get hold of a stainless bottle for a look, as an alternative to both Aluminium and Plastic. They don't seem any more expensive than the Naglene bottles.

L8r.

corvus wrote:Double check the info on Alumiminum and I also read about the the Plastic bottles including Polycarbonate as in Nalgene type ,read further and they suggest "Sigg" type Aluminium bottles go figure eh!! (they are lined with plastic ?)
I have come to the conclusion that living ,eating and drinking will kill you as opposed to train crash ,car crash ,plane crash,or even jealous lover type crash/smash/gash and natural death when its your time

Corvus,

The Sigg bottles are interesting. I've heard it said that the reason for the plastic is because Aluminium contains a lot of small pits and uneven sections which can harbour small food particles, breed bacteria etc. But if you're only using it for water, I can't see this would be an issue. What is interesting about the Sigg bottles is that Sigg refuse to disclose the makeup of the inner coating (according to the Wikipedia article anyway), so we've got no idea what it actually is.

alliecat wrote:Actually, that belief has been described as a case of "neuromythology" - something about the brain that "everybody knows" which is probably not really true.
The current state of scientific research into aluminium and alzheimer's shows that there is no evidence of a causal link between Al intake and development of Alzheimer's.
(I'm not familiar with the research about PET and health issues, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if that too was a case of "no evidence".)
Cheers,
Alliecat

As for links between Aluminium and Alzheimers, one of the things that started me thinking about this was talking to one of our Science teachers here at work (a lady with a masters degree in Science), whose been involved in some work to do with this particular topic. She tells me that the body of evidence pointing towards an actual link is quite high. The key thing here though, is that the link appears to be between Aluminium and people already genetically predisposed to alzheimers (ie. if it runs in the family). The main source of concern here though, isn't aluminium bottles (as, presumably, they don't leach aluminium) rather the flocculating processes used in water purification at water treatment plants, which uses particles of Aluminium.

L8r.

Seriously aluminium is not a worry - it's an old myth that was debunked long ago. There is absolutely no evidence for any connection between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease. Even the "Alzheimer's Association" doesn't believe it.

People with failed kidneys have their blood actually filtered through aluminium during dialysis. So if it was ever going to be a problem, researchers would notice it amongst those people pretty quick (yes, many of them do live long enough).

EDIT: Personally, I don't use aluminium bottles, but I do use aluminium pots for cooking when bushwalking, and for a BBQ hotplate at my old home.

One thing between the link between Aluminium and Alzheimers was the...

One thing between the link between...

One aluminium was...

Seriously (and with no disrespect to those suffering or living with those that are, with my silly and unwitty attempt at humour), according to a bushwalking store I visited yesterday, Sigg aren't importing into Australia any more - now some other company has it - Aluminium bottles, lined with a plastic type substance in the inner, that apparently bends when they take a knock.
I'm sure they have their place, but with these unbreakable naglene bottles, the Alum ones don't have a place in my kit.
And of course I will never take a swig from a fuel bottle accidentally...

The only alum bottle we had was a 600ml one that took a few knocks on its first outing, and some time after it had visible corroding on the inside. Whether Alum harms you or not, it didn't look healthy so we disposed recycled it.

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Both of these issues of aluminium and Alzheimers, and using plastic bottles for drinking water, seem to re-surface from time to time.

I agree with Nik's comments re aluminium. I have a 1L Sigg bottle that I use, mainly in summer, as it has an insulated storage sleeve that keeps it relatively cool. I also use an aluminium billy, and a small saucepan but can't remember if it's aluminium or stainless steel.

I also use Nalgene bottles regularly. My understanding of previous research into plastic bottles related to re-using PET bottles. However I understood that was also something of a myth. The main danger I think (with all types of bottles and cookware) is due to contamination by bacteria if you don't keep them clean.

Anyway I think I'm with Corvus, whatever kills me, kills me.

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I am going to die my coffee press that I use at home and in the bush has a Lexan container (polycarbonate) and believe it or not I actually put boiling water in it but even worse my Italian Espresso percolator is Aluminium
Just about to order a Titan press but oooh what is in that metal that is suspect (apart from the cost) so as previously stated living et all will kill you

If i was purchasing I would take a nalgene bottle over anything. The plastic they use is LEXAN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexan

Plastic bottle hurting you is a load of old cobblers.

As for aluminium and alzhys....its pretty much the same IMHO.

I carry water in a PET bottle when I walk. they are tough as nails and cost nothing. If anyone can point me to an actual scientific study saying that plastic pet bottles are bad then I might reconsider...but all I have ever seen or heard has been hearsay. There has NEVER been any conclusive evidence. Not a scratch.

It was me that said Sigg is no longer being bought into Australia. The best aluminium bottles that I was telling Adam about imho now are Laken. They are open about the process they use:
http://www.laken.es/proceso01.html

they use an epoxy phenolic coating on the inner of the bottles which is pretty much the industry standard for tough coatings for metal containers. It should flex with he bottle if it dents etc fairly well...but like anything give it enough abuse and eventually it will wear out. Any bottle will wear out with abuse though. Keep an eye on them and when you have abused them so much that the coatings are looking RS then get a new one. Treat your gear well and this wont happen.

And as for stainless...what stainless are you getting? There are so many different grades (over 100 from what I was told by a fishing hook rep) of stainless steel with varying levels of carbon and chromium to suit the circumstance...and for food grade they usually have some sort of coating on the steel. What coating is on the bottles you are buying. Probably epoxy phenolic. Sound familiar? Back the same story of treating the bottle well to preserve the coating. I would think stainless would be a bigger kettle of fish than any other product.

taswaterfalls.com wrote:And as for stainless...what stainless are you getting?

#304 (food grade stainless), the most common type, the sort of thing your knives, forks, spoons and cookware are made out of. Seems pretty safe to me (if I weren't just getting it (I'm not paying) out of general interest rather than an actual safety concern).

I find this thread interesting, I started it knowing that it would wind some people up. Any actual health concerns seem inconclusive, however it's always good to take a step back and consider the things that we take for granted. In the first half of last century people were having the same debate about cigarettes and a hundered other things no doubt. Some, like smoking turned out to be harmful, others didn't (I don't have an example of something that didn't, you tend to hear about the ones that did more often). I heard recently that burned food could be carcinogenic. Yet again more inconclusive studies. The best thing you can do for yourself is eat a balanced diet and exercise regularly, time much better spent than replacing all your bottles!

L8r.

Speculator wrote:

taswaterfalls.com wrote:And as for stainless...what stainless are you getting?

#304 (food grade stainless), the most common type, the sort of thing your knives, forks, spoons and cookware are made out of. Seems pretty safe to me (if I weren't just getting it (I'm not paying) out of general interest rather than an actual safety concern).

Not my cookware forks and spoons etc....I use exclusively asbestos for those. It's got great heat bearing properties and tastes great.

I use old soft drink bottles. If they are safe to hold soft drink they are going to be ok for a few top ups of nice fresh water. If you are worried dont use them too many times before recycling them. Thats my thinking on the pet bottles.

Roger

TWF, there is plenty of science, it is just that scientists don't always agree with each other. As Nuts and Speculator both suggested one of the main concerns with plastic bottles is BPA (bisphenol A). Hence some manufacturers advertising BPA free water bottles. There is also a lot of concern over DEHP.

DEHP
PET (polyethylene terephthalate) bottles, which are commonly used in single use bottles for water, mineral-water and cordials, have been proven to leach DEHP (Bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate) after repeated use. DEHP is a probable carcinogen (read the science here). Bis((2-ethylhexyl) phthalate is a synthetic colourless liquid with almost no odor. It is also known as Di(2-ehtylhexyl) phthalate or DEHP. It is commonly added to plastics to make them flexible. I am not sure that anyone has conclusively proven that DEHP does cause cancer in humans, but it has been linked to liver cancer in rats and mice, and testicular toxicity in rodens (particularly young males).

In California, proposition 65 requires companies to list on labels any chemicals that are carcinogenic or reproductive hazards. This year DEHP was added to the list of chemicals that must be reported (read more here) in California. In the USA, the EPA has classified DEHP as a Group B2, probable human carcinogen. The United States National Toxicology Program (USNTP) concluded that DEHP is a reproductive and developmental toxicant in animals, the animal studies are relevant to humans. They concluded that current exposure levels are of concern for critically ill infants, healthy toddlers and babies during pregnancy and lactation. The EU have been working on DEHP toxicity since 1997, and has classified DEHP as a health hazard and labeled it as "toxic". In 2005 the EU banned the use of DEHP in children's toys. Health Canada has been studying the question since 1994 and undertook extensive studies in 2001 and reported that "not all species are equally susceptible to the toxic effects of DEHP. In particular, primates are thought to be less susceptible than rodents". However, in January 2002 they (HC) released strong recommendations against the use of DEHP in medical equipment. In 2002 the Japanese Health, Labour and Welfare ministry also recommended that PVC containing DEHP should not be used in medical devices.

But not everyone is convinced.

International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) reclassifies DEHP as Non-Carcinogenic to Humans.

Baxter Healthcare Corporation (Illinois-based maker of medical supplies) who manufacture a large percentage of IV bags used in the USA (which contain DEHP), took the matter to court in California and California Superior Court Judge Talmadge R. Jones ruled that Baxter had proven that the mechanism by which DEHP caused cancer in mice does not operate in humans. At the same time Baxter have announced the introduction of a line of intravenous products that don't contain DEHP.

The Vinyls Council of Australia concluded that there is "no substantiated evidence of harm to humans from exposures to phthalates (which include DEHP) despite decades of use. The benefits of some phthalate-plasticised PVC products such as medical devices are significant". They provide plenty of links on their site to argue their case.

You can read more about "End-of-life Environmental Issues with PVC in Australia" and in particular Phthalate Plasticizers on the Department of Environment, Water, Heritage and Arts website.

BPA
The Green Guide reports that "Depending on whom you talk to, BPA is either perfectly safe or a dangerous health risk. The plastics industry says it is harmless, but a growing number of scientists are concluding, from some animal tests, that exposure to BPA in the womb raises the risk of certain cancers, hampers fertility and could contribute to childhood behavioral problems such as hyperactivity".

There is a Bisphenol A website which appears to be run by the American Chemistry Council (which represents the leading companies engaged in the business of chemistry, including significant business groups such as the Plastics Division and the Chlorine Chemistry Division). Their site has numerous links to articles confirming the safety of BPA including findings by the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) and the US National Toxicology Program’s (NTP).

BPA mimics the hormone estrogen and Health Canada, concerned that infants up to 18 mths were being exposed to too much BPA, have (Oct 2008) listed it as a Toxic substance and the Canadian Federal Goverment has moved to ban baby bottles containing BPA and announced a ban following a 60-day public comment period.

American ABC News reports a recent study linking BPA to diabetes and heart disease in adults. This was also reported on Medical News.Net.

Food Standards Australia and New Zealand "agrees with the risk assessment conducted by EFSA" (ie. estimated daily intakes of BPA are within safe limits). However they continue to monitor available information.

(I was listening to the Cricket, so I had lots of Google time).

Corvus, don't worry too much about the plastic bottles. It's no good of dieing healthy mate.

FF

flyfisher wrote:Corvus, don't worry too much about the plastic bottles. It's no good of dieing healthy mate.

FF

When I first read your post, I thought it said, "It's no good dying of healthy debate" (as a tongue in cheek reference to wT's comprehensive assessment above).

(good post, by the way, wT... lots of info there!)

wT: Yeah I researched this about 2 years ago for some reason...for life of me cant remember why. As I said, there is absolutely NO conclusive scientific study to say it is harmful. Lots of maybe's and probables....but nothing concrete.

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Nuts wrote:Not that I have any better choices. I use sigg bottle. I guess it would be impractical to carry a glass bottle...
and cups plates etc. are plastic And exposed to heat.

Perhaps they'll find the chemicals are hard to notice, the effects just causing us all to be just that bit more aggressive, passive or indifferent... on the whole...

Or- perhaps there's a conspiracy, intentionally tailoring chemicals and introducing them to us in devious ways to make us easier to manage .

surely you aren't suggesting they are putting flouride in plastic as well? What chance have we got!!!

Nuts wrote:Iv'e never been too concerned and with a similar attitude.

I'm not overly sensitive to most things but i have noticed that I have always had trouble spending too long in shops full of plastic, like chickenfeed and toyworld- I feel physically sick. And I have also noticed that it seems to be worse after I have been 'out in the wilds' for a time then return to town...getting more tolerable with time.....!

I think in times ahead there will be all sorts of realization of just what, from these mountains of cheap crap that's been imported, is safe.

I have a similar reaction to plastic especially the credit card type they seem to just want to jump out of my pocket in a BW Gear Shop also what are you doing in toy world at you age

Nuts wrote:!!


I also find it amusing that people argue so strongly for a complete first aid kit while they happily may be poisioning themselves. And even more amusing is defending your right to do so....

Perhaps the first aid kit is to treat others

nearly all first aid kits i have seen are housed in some sort of plastic....