Cold winter alpine trips - what to wear and what to do?

[PedroArvy]

I am wondering how much down people take on cold winter alpine trips such as to the Main Range or Bogong High Plains in August. So the scenario is this, you ski/walk to somewhere and it starts getting dark at 5pm. What do you do? Dive into your sleeping bag? Or stand around outside in a heap of down. How much down do you need? As a guess:

- 260 Icebreaker thermal top and bottom
- Jacket with 210 grams of down e.g. https://www.backpackinglight.com.au/mon ... -mens.html
- Down pants, or are fleece pants with thermals underneath OK with a waterproof shell
- Beanie

Just wondering if that's what anyone does, stand around in all this down and chit-chat or start a fire?
I am trying to get my head around it as I wouldn't want to go to bed at 5:30pm.

[wildwanderer]

This is where huts come in handy.

Not so much to sleep in but to have a place out of the wind and snow to light a fire, cook dinner and have a yarn.

Downs great as long as you can keep it dry. Snow can be wet or melt once it lands on you. Rain jacket over the down helps in that situation.

How much clothing you need at camp is fairly individual. Some people stand around in shorts and a fleece. Also depends how good the fireplace is.. some huts have drafty fireplaces where most of the heat goes up the chimney not into the hut.

I usually wear a heavy weight down jacket, beanie and sometimes put on thermals bottoms under my trousers. Usually I'm warm.

It's fairly common to go to bed around 6-7pm after cooking unless someone has packed in the port.

If there is no hut and the weather is perfect IE not windy or snowing then a outside fire is possible. If dry wood is handy.

Keep in mind fires above the tree line are frowned upon. banned. (EDITED to clarify)

Another factor with camp clothing especially themal bottoms is the 'if I can be bothered factor'.. In the snow it's an effort to take off layers, boots, keep snow out of the tent etc. So unless it's really cold or I'm wet or I know I'm going to be up late.. then often I won't bother going back to the tent to change into thermal bottoms etc. Just quickly grab my jacket, beanie etc then back to the hut and stay by the fire.

[Moondog55]

Synthetic layers for me at the moment.
Patagonia DAS parka and pants, over fleece layers, although I also have a big and superwarm downie it is usually too warm to wear it unless I am totally immobile.
If the sky is clear I watch the sky, if the weather is bad I go to bed early and read. If I can I do like a fire and a glass or two of a good port, talk to mates, dream the fire if alone.
But I find that things take so much longer in the snow that by the time I've cooked dinner and eaten it can be late enough to go to sleep easily.
Most people would find fleece pants and a wind layer enough usually but feet need extra care and it really is worth taking the warmest bivvy boots you can find unless you have plastic double with Intuition thermo liners like my Scarpa ski boots

[Zapruda]

Keep in mind fires above the tree line are frowned upon.

They are more than frowned upon, they aren't allowed at all in NSW above the tree line. There is a distinct lack of trees above the tree line...

Pedro, ill give you an idea of what I normally wear and do on a ski trip in August in the Alps. Of course this is all individual and my personal preference. This doesn't factor in huts, which are of course lovely but a little dull when you can have the big expanse of the high country in front of you

Clothing - I still try to keep things light even in winter. These clothes are put on at camp and are sperate to what I've been wearing during the day. I normally stay in my day clothes until all my camp chores are done.

- Down jacket with 200g of fill
- Fleece leggings
- Lightweight synthetic top
- 100 weight fleece
- Beanie
- Warm socks
- Fleece liner gloves
- Fleece mittens

I find I can stay warm in this setup in decent weather while the sun is setting without freezing.

Finding a nice protected campsite can help keep you warm and out of the elements.

I find making a fire is more taxing in the colder months and rarely worth it.

I generally hop in to my warm sleeping bag once the sun has gone down and enjoy a rare opportunity to spend 12 hours in bed. I often drift off to sleep while listening to an audiobook.

Part of winter camping means being a little bored at night. The sun sets early and its too cold to laze around outside of the tent.

I tend to spend a bit of time cooking something and making a few teas.

I normally like to make camp by 4. This gives me time to set up and enjoy my surroundings,

Oh, and whisky helps!

[Casparvitch]

Out of interest Zapruda, why the fleece + down if you aren't wearing either during the day? Is the fleece there as an optional mid layer while moving?

[Zapruda]

Good catch. I should have clarified that the fleece is part of my day wear. That’s the only thing that gets “re-used”.
I’ll also pop on my down jacket at breaks during the day.

[ChrisJHC]

Also remember that, unless it’s cloudy, there’s plenty of light at night once your eyes adjust.
Just avoid grabbing your torch every few minutes and you’ll be surprised how much you can see.

I try to last until 8 pm but am often tucked up in bed earlier reading and listening to music (via ear buds so I don’t disturb anyone else, of course!).
Unfortunately, I then have to get back up to do my night routine but the effort is worth it.

Note that, if you read via an electronic device (phone, Kindle, etc), then you’ll need to keep them warm or the battery will die very quickly.

[wildwanderer]

Keep in mind fires above the tree line are frowned upon.

They are more than frowned upon, they aren't allowed at all in NSW above the tree line. There is a distinct lack of trees above the tree line...

Good point. I was a bit casual in my language. I'l edit my post.

[slparker]

I put on a dry base layer and add a down puffy. On my legs I put on a synthetic fill puffy trousers. The trousers weigh around the same as a fleece layer and are way warmer.

I bring my quilt into the hut or wherever to add another layer as well. Don't forget the necessity to eat a warm meal with carbs and fats - plus a hot drink.

This keeps me warm well into the minuses - also a tot of whisky doesn't help but feels like it does.

[skibug]

I guess this is very individual, situational and variable. Being warm whilst in the snow depends on many factors, including air temp, humidity and moisture, wind, dietary status, level of fatigue, clothing and other gear, and psychological factors. Sometimes I'll sit outside for hours, enjoying the stars, talking, doing chores; other times, I get so cold I just have to get into the sleeping bag and just focus on warming. I've had nights following a day of sleet where everything is wet, and even though it's above freezing you can't get rid of that damp coldness. Sometimes minus 10, but dry and calm, is delightful. Options are good - spare/dry clothing, a nearby hut to escape to, checking weather constantly and having a flexible itinerary. Good quality gear (ie tent that can take high winds, maintained gore-tex) is important. Books, kindles, music, blogs, a radio etc really good if you are stuck overnight or longer. Personal experience will end up being better than any advice - start conservatively, do your research, don't start out alone.

Skibug.

[Moondog55]

My reference to fires was for Victoria where fires are allowed in many areas and in a couple of places have fireplaces in the dedicated camping areas.
Bogong massif is a camp-fire free / fuel stove only area.

[Moondog55]

An addition to Wildwanders comment and the "Faff Factor" If you decide on high loft pants get ones with full side zippers. they are very much better than taking off your boots to put on the extra warm layer.
Worth the small weight penalty IMO

[PedroArvy]

On my legs I put on a synthetic fill puffy trousers. The trousers weigh around the same as a fleece layer and are way warmer.

Could you kind folk please provide a link to a make and model of puffy trousers you personally use?

[Casparvitch]

Aye I can't find any in Australia anywhere!

[andrewa]

My colder weather snow camping has evolved to a basic concept.

Take whatever clothing you need to be comfortable in that temperature during the day, and which provides you with whatever flexibility you need during the trip, and wear it all at night, and then add a light quilt and insulated sleeping mat for sleep.

I end up with thermal undergarments, some lightweight fleece, and then down over it. If it’s cold, and your waterproof outer layer is dry, put it in under the down outer layer for warmth. It works as a partial vapour barrier.

Down booties add a huge amount of enjoyment to life, as does a down beanie!

Irrespective of the issue with down and water, I do love my down pants and jacket, but they really only get used at night, or on extended miserable lunch breaks....in which case a Bothy bag makes even these enjoyable...

A

[wildwanderer]

Your miles may vary but I've always felt down pants seem like a good idea until you rip them on a hut bench splinter or a bit of sword grass or sharp twig sticking out from a low lying shrub. Then you've got feathers everywhere.

I'm paranoid about my jacket as is... but then again I did have to buy the $$ UL, 200gm down fill, ultra fragile one..

[crollsurf]

... and wear it [walking cloths] all at night, and then add a light quilt and insulated sleeping mat for sleep.

I swap out my ski pants and jacket for a decent quilt but pretty much what andrewa says.

Also it's always fun watching others trying to put frozen ski/snow boots on in the morning , unless of course, you also forget to put your own inners/boots in your sleeping bag overnight to stop them freezing.

[Moondog55]

Just be aware that during the day when you are actively walking or skiing you won't need that much clothing.
Winter weight long underwear and a wind-suit might be enough; perhaps a lightweight fleece if really cold.
It's when you stop that most people find they have an urgent need to layer up.
Just make sure that your clothing layers all work together so that if you need a lot of insulation you can wear everything you have all at the same time and without any compression of each layer in the system.

[wildwanderer]

Just be aware that during the day when you are actively walking or skiing you won't need that much clothing.
Winter weight long underwear and a wind-suit might be enough; perhaps a lightweight fleece if really cold.
It's when you stop that most people find they have an urgent need to layer up.
Just make sure that your clothing layers all work together so that if you need a lot of insulation you can wear everything you have all at the same time and without any compression of each layer in the system.

Good tips. It's important not to wear to much clothing when active, particularly gear you can't remove quickly.

I had a situation in Canada a long time ago.. was doing some snow shoeing and wore a thick and a thin fleece underneath my wind jacket. Had thermals on as well. It was about -10c and I was nice and warm in my gear when we departed.

After about an hour and a bit of walking I was toasty warm but unaware my back was sweating profusely as I had a pack on as well. Overheating and a non breathable pack is not a good combo.

When we stopped I became absolutely freezing due to being wet from sweat. I had a down puffy in the pack which I put on but even that wasn't enough to warm me up cause my inner layers were saturated. We lit a fire to warm me up and I stripped off the wet layers. Lesson learned.

It's better to be a bit cold starting out but protected from the wind (with a wind jacket/buff/gloves/hat) than toasty warm. Cary your warm stuff in your pack. If you start to sweat and with a group ask them to stop asap so you can remove a layer.

[crollsurf]

Yeah I've been cold and sweating at the same time more than once.

Probably a good tip is to learn about Hypothermia. Even early onset, you need to pull the pin on "I'm all right" and set up camp, get into a bag, eat and drink warm drinks if possible. Once hypo, it takes a long time to get your core back to normal, the longer you leave it, the harder and longer it takes. And it drains you energy wise as well.

[Moondog55]

Yeah I've been cold and sweating at the same time more than once.

Probably a good tip is to learn about Hypothermia. Even early onset, you need to pull the pin on "I'm all right" and set up camp, get into a bag, eat and drink warm drinks if possible. Once hypo, it takes a long time to get your core back to normal, the longer you leave it, the harder and longer it takes. And it drains you energy wise as well.

Not just hypothermia; cold stress can be equally debilitating over a few days, or a couple of nights of lost sleep [ or the cold unintentional emergency bivvy] and I've gone stupid light a couple of times trying to get my white season pack weight down and I've learnt that an extra kilo in warm clothing/ extra mat and another kilo in food and fuel can be smart planning.

[slparker]

On my legs I put on a synthetic fill puffy trousers. The trousers weigh around the same as a fleece layer and are way warmer.

Could you kind folk please provide a link to a make and model of puffy trousers you personally use?

Montane prism pants

I think that you can get them from backpackinglight.com.au or Bogong but I got them whilst on sale her:

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk ... pants-p860

[Ms_Mudd]

I am stalking the postman for my new insulated pants at the moment, I bought a pair of enlightened equipment torrid apex pants. Tgwy will be replacing my old MD brass Monkey fleece pants which have gotten holes at many stitched points.
I went synthetic with my purchase so that all my insulation wasn't down.

Will update when they see some use, the 10d fabric looks kinda fragile.

[andrewa]

Never ripped any of my down stuff so far. Spose I’m just a bit more careful about it.

Same way I haven’t got it soaking wet...although there may be a time when I have no control over that....I’ve managed to avoid that so far...

A

[commando]

Effectively Down Jackets have become a convenient lightweight purchase for use, but it is really meant
for dry cold alpine environments like New Zealand, where as Australia's climate has the wet cold environment
even at the highest points to which pure wool is more suited because if you fall over its the only product which
is warm when wet and much more durable. Polyester tried so hard to replace wool, but you will have a higher
degree of smell BO in a shorter space of time. Down vests when stopped are real good over the wool shirt.

[wayno]

NZ isnt a dry alpine environment... if you've seen the amount of rime ice we get here from damp air. the snow here is pretty heavy compared to a lot of places. the snow melts easily causing issues with down. long trips here with down gear ends up with very damp down