How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

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How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Sat 18 Sep, 2021 9:25 am

I'm the first to admit that my pitching skills are not the greatest.

Tarptent's set-up video makes it look easy to get the pitch-loc ends to do the right thing. "Tighten the upper guy line to ensure that the struts are fully spread, and then the lower guy line for a tight xxx edge." I can't catch the word, but I think she means the edge of the fly.

I tried on a perfect piece of flat grass, but when I let go of the top of the pitch-loc end, having tightened that guy line, the two bases, that were supposed to stay fully spread, would always creep inwards. I think that's why I can't get a tight edge on the fly. It'll flap in the breeze, even on a perfect tent site, let alone some others I have in mind. I tried all sorts of tweaks with the height of the fly etc, but with no success.

This issue also reduces the width of the already narrow inner ends. I know I can stuff things inside to help keep the corners out, but if the official video shows it's possible to get it right, I suspect it is.

I'm also confused by how the poles should sit. In videos I've seen, they looked more vertical than I could get mine. Mine slope inwards quite a bit. I can't see an alternative, as the floor of the inner is significantly wider than the roofline between the grommets for the pole tips. But it's that's because I haven't tried the fly at full height yet, as I want a lower pitch. So I'll have to have a bigger angle on the pole.

Also, according to the packing slip, the two separate little pocketty things are pole tip extenders. Does anyone know if there's a video anywhere that shows how to use them? :oops:

Thank for your help. The initial excitement bubble burst, but I'm hanging onto your assurance, Zapruda, that it's an excellent tent. I'm sure it's possible to get it working better.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby johnw » Sat 18 Sep, 2021 12:29 pm

Hi Tortoise,
OK I'm getting bored in lockdown. It does look like a great tent. I've never owned a Notch Li or any other tarptent (but have been tempted on occasion).
Having recently bought a Dan Durston X-Mid 1, which has a different setup, I'm not qualified to give advice but I did find out the following.

I don't know if it will help but there seems to be two official Tarptent setup videos for the Notch Li.

This one, which looks to be the one you're referring to. I think in this she says "tight hem edge".
https://vimeo.com/256502024

I also found this one on their web site, which makes it look easy. It has subtitles but there is no dialogue. Have you seen this one?
https://vimeo.com/406881324

p.s. If I'm reading correctly Tarptent pole tip extenders are aluminium sleeves? Can you post a photo?
https://www.tarptent.com/product/trekking-pole-tip-extender/
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Sat 18 Sep, 2021 12:54 pm

Thanks, John. I appreciate your constructive use of boredom!

Embarrassing confession number 1. The pole extenders, which I knew would look something like that, I mistook for pole repair sleeves. :oops: In my defence, there are a lot of decades that I've been carrying pole repair sleeves that look like that. (I got 2 dedicated poles as insurance.) And my mental processing and memory have large glitches. :roll:

So the little pocketty things aren't listed on the packing slip. I'll get a photo loaded when I can. The pole extenders fit into them, an are probably something to do with attaching them to/near the grommet. Can't work out how, though.

I've had a thought about the pitch-loc ends. If I pulled out the second end a bit too tight, that might cause the lower bits to pull in.

I had watched that second video before, but not since I got mine. He gets a nice tight hem.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Joynz » Sun 19 Sep, 2021 9:26 am

Are the pockety things trekking pole handle adapters?

Do they have an attached cord for threading through the grommet? The tarp tent shows how the adapters are attached to the grommets using the cord.

https://www.tarptent.com/product/trekki ... e-adapter/
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Sun 19 Sep, 2021 12:26 pm

Joynz wrote:Are the pockety things trekking pole handle adapters?

Thanks for checking, Joynz. No, the pole handle adapters are different. I haven't seen these things on the website at all. Doesn't mean they're not there though... I must find my microSD adapter so I can download/upload a photo of them.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Zapruda » Sun 19 Sep, 2021 2:55 pm

Here is how I pitch mine. I get a tight pitch 99% of the time. Occasionally, on uneven ground or in tussock, It can get a little distorted.

1. Stake one end out.
2. Pull other end until the tent is straight.
3. Relax the end by 15cm and stake. This is an important step. Always stake the ends with a bit of slack in the middle.
4. Inset trekking poles tip side up at 110cm and then peg vestibule.
5. Do the same on the opposite side.
6. Tighten vestibules and pitchloc ends.
7. Attach inner pulls to trekking poles.
8. Raise poles a centimetre or two.

I apply pressure to the pitchloc ends when tightening them.

I generally aim for a very slight dip between apex points.

I remember it took me a few pitches to get it right.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Franco » Sun 19 Sep, 2021 4:37 pm

A common mistake people make with trekking pole supported tents , including the mids, is not to get the base of the tent set up correctly.
For example with the Notch is not having the two PitchLoc corners set up so that the base line formed by the two struts are parallel to each other.
1.jpg

This is a very rough drawing but I hope it illustrates the point.
This is common with the SS 2/Li.
When set up correctly it should look like this :
ss2_dimensions.jpg

if the opposite sides of the hexagonal shape are not parallel to each other, two or more panels will be limp.
They don't need to be out by much to make the difference.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Sun 19 Sep, 2021 9:38 pm

Thanks, Zapruda & Franco. I hoped you'd both chip in your thoughts. I'll have another go tomorrow. :)
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Sat 25 Sep, 2021 2:33 pm

Here's some pics of the black pocket-y things, that do fit over the pole tip extenders. But they might be nothing to do with them.
I haven't quite worked out how to use the pole tip extenders either, should I ever need to.

Thanks again for your advice. :)
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Sat 25 Sep, 2021 5:31 pm

Maybe that's how you attach the pole tip extenders?? Tie cord through the loop on the end and through the grommet for the normal pole tips?
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Ms_Mudd » Fri 08 Oct, 2021 3:49 pm

How did you get on Tortoise?
How long until your big trip now?
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Fri 08 Oct, 2021 5:42 pm

Ms_Mudd wrote:How did you get on Tortoise?
How long until your big trip now?

Hey there, Muddy! Most important thing first: 28 sleeps, weather, health, Covid etc etc allowing. :D :? Eek!

First outing with my Notch was I guess mainly positive, given the sheltered, low level campsite. I couldn't get the pitchloc ends to sit nice and parallel like Franco's pic. It was on a tent platform, and they kept sliding on the wet wood, and wouldn't stay where I put them. Normally I'd have some trouble guessing what exactly parallel would be, without being able to see the other end. But on the platform I had the nicely parallel platform slats to line them up with. They just wouldn't stay there when I tightened the upper guy line (of the triangle). So the hem wasn't taut.

And, though I tried to get it lower, the bottom of the fly was waaaay up in the air, making it tricky to boil the billy safely when it was raining. I used a few things as well as my windbreak, but I was thankful I wasn't anywhere high and exposed.

We're planning on camping low with a massive day walk for the Big One, so it should be OK even if I haven't made more progress.

I bought a new pack yesterday too. Not sure if I did the right thing with the Arial Pro 65 (which is only 62 with the XS harness). Felt better loaded up in the shop than on it's first training walk...
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Ms_Mudd » Fri 08 Oct, 2021 7:25 pm

So much exciting prep going on! Not that many more sleeps, can't wait to hear all about the trip.

I found the pitchlocks on my TT Moment both a blessing and a curse, I am pretty unco though. I am glad that your maiden voyage was mostly positive. Good news for you.

Congrats on the new pack, I think they are lovely looking packs. Hope you find a comfy way to load it out. I guess the people in the shop are adept at packing favourably. I have had good experiences with Ospreys, I hope your flash new pack ends up being a similarly good experience.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Sat 06 Nov, 2021 4:16 pm

I wish I'd set my notch up recently enough to have better info, but I do recall finding that if I tried to set it too tight to begin with, it was more difficult. If I started with lots of room to tighten, it was much easier. Mine is one of the early ones, so it will be a little different, but not much I'd think. My biggest problem was setting it up so tight that I was worried about the zips, and if I started too tight, it would easily get all out of sorts and distorted. I'm guessing though that the silnylon is a little more forgiving in that regard.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Sat 11 Dec, 2021 7:25 am

Zapruda wrote:Here is how I pitch mine. I get a tight pitch 99% of the time. Occasionally, on uneven ground or in tussock, It can get a little distorted.

1. Stake one end out.
2. Pull other end until the tent is straight.
3. Relax the end by 15cm and stake. This is an important step. Always stake the ends with a bit of slack in the middle.
4. Inset trekking poles tip side up at 110cm and then peg vestibule.
5. Do the same on the opposite side.
6. Tighten vestibules and pitchloc ends.
7. Attach inner pulls to trekking poles.
8. Raise poles a centimetre or two.

I apply pressure to the pitchloc ends when tightening them.

I generally aim for a very slight dip between apex points.

I remember it took me a few pitches to get it right.

Hi Zapruda. I really appreciate your details. Hopefully a few more pitches and I'll get it right. :)

One thing I can't figure out is that if I keep the pole vertical, as per the Tarptent instructions, the base of the fly at the vestibule zip can't go any lower. That's a problem, as with the hem not taut (still working on that), a gentle breeze makes the base of the fly flooff up about 30cm off the ground. :o No protection for anything in the vestibule. I bought the 109 cm support poles, as I only use one trekking pole, and regularly do side trips, leaving my tent up during the day. In you pic it looks like your pole is at a bit of an angle to get it lower. Is that what you do? If so, is it sloping towards the inner at 90 degrees to the length of the tent? Does that weaken the pitch in the wind? I'm not sure I can do it with the Tarptent poles, as the tip can pop out of the top of the pole somehow, as I discovered. :? And they don't adjust, so I'd have to modify your method a little.

Thanks again.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Zapruda » Wed 15 Dec, 2021 10:39 am

Hi Tortoise, sorry for the delay. I've been up in the hills.

I never had that problem. A couple of trouble shooting tips.

1. Have you got the pitchloc webbing tightened at the struts?
2. Maybe try leave a bit of slack in between the end when pitching and adjust after the poles go in.

To get a lowered fly edge, I would often stake the vestibules out first and then the ends and finally the poles. Some micro adjustment from there.

I've never been a big fan of non adjustable poles in tents like the Notch. They really limit your pitching options.

Have you got any pics of your pitch? that might help.

Oh, and I always put my poles in straight, not at an angle.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Wed 26 Jan, 2022 6:49 pm

Thanks Zapruda. Sorry about the long delay! I got a bit too discouraged. :roll:
I had wondered about the non-adjustability of the poles, but I didn't want to have to carry 2 heavier trekking poles for the tent.

I start with the webbing tight at the struts, but the bottoms of the struts move (inwards in 2 directions) after I've tightened the guys and let go.

I've been careful not to pull out the second end too tight, allowing for adjustment after I've put the poles in. I've tried doing the vestibules first as you suggested for a lower pitch, but still without success.

Well, I do like my tent when I'm camping in a nice sheltered forest. It meant I got to walk out with a 7.8 kg pack on my back the other day. :D
BUT... I'm disappointed with its performance so far. It may well be user error, but I've tried everything people, including Henry Shires, have suggested.

It's the first tent I've ever had fall down. Glad I wasn't using trekking poles with tips up. I may not have a tent any more.

I went on a long day walk, leaving the tent up in 25km/hr winds, presumably with some stronger gusts. Nothing like the gale force winds I've had other tents perform well in. Admittedly, I foolishly left the end vent open, allowing extra wind in between the inner and the fly. It applied too much force to the end tent peg, which pulled out, collapsing the tent. The ground was firm. I used a rock to help me get the peg in fully. Very fortunately, there doesn't appear to be any damage so far, despite it flapping on the ground for an unknown number of hours.
DSC09293.jpg


Here are a couple of pics of it pitched:
DSC09294.jpg


The following one demonstrates on of my issues. I can't get the bottom hem taut, so it flaps in the wind. Not good for my sleep or the fabric:
DSC08950.jpg

Franco, you mentioned the importance of having the ends of the pitchloc corners parallel. I have a big problem with that. I CANNOT get the pitchloc ends to stay where I put them, no matter how much I tweak the guys that are supposed to stop that. I've had the problem on a platform (where it was very easy to see if I had the ends parallel or not), on grass, on a forest floor (firm ground) and on a variety of low alpine vegetation. Everywhere I've tried to pitch it so far. I've ordered some titanium shepherd hooks in the hope that I can use them (except when I'm pitching on a platform) to stop the ends from moving. Then I've got to work on being able to get them parallel when I can only see one end at a time.

I've been unable to get the hem of the fly anywhere vaguely close enough to the ground to provide any shelter for anything under the fly, if we have slightly driving rain.
DSC09196 (2).jpg

Maybe the moral of the story is that if you are like me, and not a good pitcher of tents, or solver of practical problems, don't get a trekking pole tent. They require more skill.
Last edited by Tortoise on Wed 26 Jan, 2022 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Wed 26 Jan, 2022 6:59 pm

Henry said I had the guys pulled too tight on the ends. Pitching them looser does not help.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Franco » Thu 27 Jan, 2022 10:43 am

In this photo
DSC08950.jpg
DSC08950.jpg (122.26 KiB) Viewed 8538 times

two problems can be seen.
As Henry has already commented, you have shortened the corner guylines far too much.
They should be fully or almost fully extended. So always start with those tie outs fully extended.
That is a typical problem wehere people pull the tie-outs in when they should reposition the struts.
I posted this before but here it is again :

note how I keep the apex pressed down as I peg the tie-outs in. Doing it like that the tip of those struts will not move.
Now the other problem is that indeed the base of that triangle is twisted towards the left and that is why the bottom of that door panel is limp.
Look at that photo and imagine moving that near strut base to the right and you should "see" the base of that panel get in tension.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Thu 27 Jan, 2022 11:43 am

Hi Franco. Thanks for your patience. I understand the reason for the lack of tension in the photo. The problem was that I couldn't get the strut base to stay where I put it. I'm pretty sure I kept the apex pressed down as I pegged the tie-outs in. I was used to doing that with my Scarp. But I'll have another go when it stops raining.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Franco » Sat 29 Jan, 2022 12:00 pm

I see that there is a thread on pliers.
If by any chance you take them with you, they would be handy in holding the O or D ring as you try to take the inner off or puttingt it back on.
BTW, I usualy can only add the inner when the shelter is fully up. Too fiddly otherwise (I get the clips into the wrong ring)
I sometime too the Squirt with me, just in case...
Now I have relised that I have 4 Leatherman multitools.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby teda » Fri 20 May, 2022 9:46 pm

Hi Franco, how are you finding the Notch Li? I'm in the market for a new tent and this is at the top of my list.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Franco » Tue 24 May, 2022 9:09 am

I have the sil version. The Li is less forgiving with the set up because it does not stretch but I am probably the wrong person to ask because I find setting up tents very easy and intuitive.
At the same time over the years I had folk coming to my place for a set up demo (different tents...) always turns out that they were doing something wrong and then learned how to do it the right way.
I know this will not sound right to some but when you see a tent set up correctly ( nice and taut and stable) if you can't do it with yours it isn't the tent' fault ....


and since I'm at it... when a peg pops out it is always user error.
Wrong peg,wrong angle or not enough ballast on top (when windy) but the tent starts failing only when the cordage or fly material falls apart. Now if the fault happens because a peg had popped out first or the cordage was rubbing on some rocks, go back to the user error bit.
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Turfa » Tue 24 May, 2022 11:22 am

teda wrote:Hi Franco, how are you finding the Notch Li? I'm in the market for a new tent and this is at the top of my list.


I have had a Notch Li for a few years now and am still extremely happy with it. It has kept me dry and comfortable in some very bad weather and is showing good durability, especially considering the weight. As noted in this thread, it is important to pitch it right to get the best performance & I have also found it is worth having decent pegs and not go too 'ultralight' with them. It is quite snug in terms of interior space, but that is the price you pay for a light pack !
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Tue 24 May, 2022 4:00 pm

Hey Franco,

I really should have another shot at getting the pitch right, instead of leaving a good tent at home whenever I'm not camping in a very sheltered spot. I take full responsibility for the collapse of my tent as above. I know it's user error, as is not being able to get a taut pitch. I know it's possible, I just haven't succeeded with it yet. Wewy fwustwating! I'm the first to admit that I'm not the kind of person who does practical things with ease. I guess that's where perseverance comes in. :)
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Franco » Tue 24 May, 2022 5:23 pm

For years I had people trying to teach me how to swim. I can sink wearing two life jackets....
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Tue 24 May, 2022 6:03 pm

Franco wrote:For years I had people trying to teach me how to swim. I can sink wearing two life jackets....

:lol: I love swimming. :D
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Re: How to get a good Notch Li pitch?

Postby Tortoise » Tue 24 May, 2022 6:05 pm

Franco wrote:At the same time over the years I had folk coming to my place for a set up demo (different tents...) always turns out that they were doing something wrong and then learned how to do it the right way.

Watch out next time I come to Victoria, Franco! Don't hold your breath, though.
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