GPS and PLB advice please

[simonm]

what are the odds of it setting itself off while you're in the wilderness. . ?
if you register the PLB properly, the emergency services have your contact details and details of three other people. if the beacon is set off they can ring around, if you're not on a trip when it goes off then they will ring you first and you can confirm that its a false alarm. or if they can't get hold of you hopefully one of your friends can confirm you're not out in the wilderness.

Yeah I agree. Sorry I have been up since 4.30am with my kids, so I may not be very coherent I wasn't arguing with anything you said or debating the usefulness of PLB's - self activation is clearly very rare, and nothing that should stop you getting one. I guess my point was anything can malfunction - actually I don't know what my point was .

[wayno]

thats cool.. its all good information for anyone who doesnt know the ins and outs of PLB's

[simonm]

One of the most useful things I learnt was ensuring you leave a detailed plan with the people at home so they know exactly what to do, who to call and when, depending on the circumstances.

[GPSGuided]

Further on the PLB. Apart from the 3 contacts one can record with the agency, per Wayno's post, there's also a notes/trip data field. In that, one can and should record upcoming trip plan etc. Then it's even easier for the rescue authority to know what's going on. Potentially one can also enter additional people in the party. It's all up to the user.

[wayno]

make sure anyone listed as contacts has details of your trip plans, so if SAR ring them then they can make an informed decision
so if you're lying on a beach in the bahamas and the beacon goes off.......

[Ent]

Personal experience plays heavily on my logic. A satellite phone failed to work when it needed to. The old blame the user argument does not fly as a remote oil rig worker use to the satellite phones could not get it to work either. Interestingly he carried a PLB himself instead.

On the last walk a Spot failed due to its waterproof case not been waterproof.

Both these event I was there first hand! My PLB tests ok and has been drenched and dunked with me.

If it must work then a PLB is the go. Still it is handy having a Spot in the group and iPhone in a Lifeproof case. The old less than three shall never be rule still has merits.

A PLB is designed to be a strong and waterproof with as much transmitting power as needed and this means it has limitations such as non user replaceable batteries so can not be a general use communication device. It uses the same system as commercial aircraft not a private company's phone system.

Regards.

[sthughes]

Also keep in mind Spot's and Sat Phones are used by thousands of people every day all over the world, there are bound to be a few failures reported. On the other hand PLB's are only used about twice a day worldwide. From what I can glean from a quick Google.

It's like doing a Google search of "iphone freezing" or "motorola defy freezing". The iPhone gets 6.6 million hits, the Defy less than 300,000. But I can assure you the Defy freezes at least 50 times more often than an iPhone!

[GPSGuided]

Also keep in mind Spot's and Sat Phones are used by thousands of people every day all over the world, there are bound to be a few failures reported. On the other hand PLB's are only used about twice a day worldwide. From what I can glean from a quick Google.

It's like doing a Google search of "iphone freezing" or "motorola defy freezing". The iPhone gets 6.6 million hits, the Defy less than 300,000. But I can assure you the Defy freezes at least 50 times more often than an iPhone!

PLB has geostationary and polar orbiting satellites covering the full surface of Earth while SPOT, for us in Australia, depends on satellites sitting far lower in the sky. Logic is not that difficult.

[roysta]

ah, just marry up the iphone 5 with a Delorme inReach and you'll be happy anywhere.

[paddlpop]

Satellite phone if you really must talk to family whilst out and about.
PLB for relative piece of mind in the wilderness. Spot fails when wet...read Andrews trails and tracks blog in NZ.
GPS...I won't use digital maps but use basic etrex set to UTM and plot on real map. I never want to be limited by my battery life.
FWIW ..I think you'd have to be naive to think you could use a phone for anything other than entertainment value for navigation. Great for finding your way round Vic Market but that's about it. Maybe good as a final backup if all other systems fail..

[GPSGuided]

ah, just marry up the iphone 5 with a Delorme inReach and you'll be happy anywhere.

Neat. But the running cost is going to be higher than my mobile contract fee, let alone the upfront cost. Not realistic unless I am a "pro" wilderness guy.

[Mark F]

I don't really want to come across as biased towards Spot but it does suit my requirements and has worked as advertised for me. This doesn't mean that it is perfect or the best system for others but why this continual anti Spot rhetoric? Spot is going to fail when needed (Wayno & Strider). This is not the experience of many thousands of users. Don't rely on a few negative reports. Like many comments on the unreliability of Steripen it may be user failure to read and understand the requirements to operate the unit correctly.

Spot will fail if it gets wet (paddlpop). Am I strange in that I make sure my technology doesn't get saturated? Maybe Andrew will invest in a simple waterproof cover after his mishap (or even a ziplock bag) and perhaps others will do the same rather than reject the technology out of hand.

Any piece of technology can fail. We somehow managed to bushwalk without technology for many years - now we are considered unsafe unless we have not only one piece of technology but multiple backups in case of failures! Life in all its facets is a continual balance of risk and reward - every time a get in my car, an aeroplane or go for a walk. You have to find the balance that you are comfortable with. As I previously commented I am yet to need a plb. Most of us may use one between 0 and 1 times in their lifetime. Assuming a Spot will fail 1 time in several hundred I think I will take my chances.

[GPSGuided]

... I will take my chances.

Clear evidence that your objective for the device is not for a life or death emergency. For a life or death emergency, one does not take chances.

The discussions are really quite disconnected. SPOT users are more focused on using it as a run of the mill communication device, with emergency communication as a feature added function. PLB users are focused solely on a safety device for that life or death situation with no compromise on the hardware.

[sthughes]

FWIW ..I think you'd have to be naive to think you could use a phone for anything other than entertainment value for navigation. Great for finding your way round Vic Market but that's about it. Maybe good as a final backup if all other systems fail..

My iPhone in Lifeproof case with 1:25k topos loaded is fantastic for navigation! I certainly wouldn't RELY on it for such, but most of the time it is brilliant. Much quicker and easier than an Etrex and paper map. But don't worry, the proper GPS, laminated map and compass are always with me just in case.

[simonm]

I don't really want to come across as biased towards Spot but it does suit my requirements and has worked as advertised for me. This doesn't mean that it is perfect or the best system for others but why this continual anti Spot rhetoric? Spot is going to fail when needed (Wayno & Strider). This is not the experience of many thousands of users. Don't rely on a few negative reports. Like many comments on the unreliability of Steripen it may be user failure to read and understand the requirements to operate the unit correctly.

Spot will fail if it gets wet (paddlpop). Am I strange in that I make sure my technology doesn't get saturated? Maybe Andrew will invest in a simple waterproof cover after his mishap (or even a ziplock bag) and perhaps others will do the same rather than reject the technology out of hand.

Any piece of technology can fail. We somehow managed to bushwalk without technology for many years - now we are considered unsafe unless we have not only one piece of technology but multiple backups in case of failures! Life in all its facets is a continual balance of risk and reward - every time a get in my car, an aeroplane or go for a walk. You have to find the balance that you are comfortable with. As I previously commented I am yet to need a plb. Most of us may use one between 0 and 1 times in their lifetime. Assuming a Spot will fail 1 time in several hundred I think I will take my chances.

We share a similar philosophy Mark.

[simonm]

For a life or death emergency, one does not take chances.

I am impressed that you have removed all risk. I am assuming you carry a back up device in case the PLB fails, or you are unable to activate it for some reason. Can any situation be completely devoid of risk?

[Nuts]

Personal experience plays heavily on my logic. A satellite phone failed to work when it needed to. The old blame the user argument does not fly as a remote oil rig worker use to the satellite phones could not get it to work either. Interestingly he carried a PLB himself instead.

On the last walk a Spot failed due to its waterproof case not been waterproof.

Both these event I was there first hand! My PLB tests ok and has been drenched and dunked with me.

If it must work then a PLB is the go. Still it is handy having a Spot in the group and iPhone in a Lifeproof case. The old less than three shall never be rule still has merits.

A PLB is designed to be a strong and waterproof with as much transmitting power as needed and this means it has limitations such as non user replaceable batteries so can not be a general use communication device. It uses the same system as commercial aircraft not a private company's phone system.

Regards.

Yes, if I was you i'd have a full bag of tricks

Each to their own, can't argue with that (more the better) Still, you lack a satphone, the miniscule chance event of needing more immediate medical advice isn't covered I'm not sure how being a remote area oil worker has meaning? Do they have some sort of formal satphone training (I used ours daily for 20 or so weeks.. the times I had trouble with the signal I later found was most likely user error..)

I'm not convinced about all the mapping electronics being more or less than gimmicky. I mean if you have a map, compass and know know to use it, use one of the electronic devices at a time out of preference or interest.. they aren't necessarily making things any 'safer'.

[Ent]

Hi Nuts

Yes formal training communication and remote first aid certificate was just the starter of his work qualifications. Remote workers are well trained nowadays by the big companies. We eventually got an iPhone to work. The GPS coordinates we gave enabled the helicopter to fly directly to the position for collection.

It is a pity that people feel the need to be critical of modern technology but that is the way with some. So we had a quick rescue with minimal drain on rescue resources.

The simple fact in an emergency things just need to work and if you have to spends hours figuring them out then that is not much use. Heck, I even watched eagerly a Spot log for a solo walker and nothing came up. Apparently the person did not have it figured out. You might know the walker.

Cheers

[Nuts]

Why didn't you set off the plb ?
The sat-phone, how did he 'get it to work' ?

[Nuts]

The simple fact in an emergency things just need to work and if you have to spends hours figuring them out then that is not much use. Heck, I even watched eagerly a Spot log for a solo walker and nothing came up. Apparently the person did not have it figured out. You might know the walker.

Cheers

Haha yes.. we worked it out eventually, not that it was needed or anything. It's not a boast, i'm sure (hope) that you, you guys, many others on here could get yourself out of trouble without technology or even a map. I tend to pour over a map and picture things coming up.. then put it away.. so yes i'm not the most studious techno wise. With the satphone, I knew that there was more to it, just never got around to learning.

Don't get me wrong, i'd probably choose a plb as a one gadget solution too especially if with other people. I wouldn't deny that there are going to be situations where direct communications or tracking wouldn't be far better.. i wouldn't listen to anyone who did.

[Ent]

Actually mapping in OSM is great for getting a memory of the area. Spending hours mapping in lakes, mountains and rivers certainly forces me to better understand an area.

What I have noticed remarkably rarely are GPSs used for navigation in our group. But on the way to Mount Spurling they were good to make life easier drawing a straighter track through a lake intensive area.

It was fascinating comparing a walker not using a mapping GPS with our group's master navigator. When he was leading we spent all day going up and down small hills getting bearings. A GPS powered walk is a lot flatter by comparison.

The Garmin's Rino ability to measure distances on tracks combined with the ready distance walked on the Fenix was great for deciding if side trips could be made and still arriving at a hut in daylight. Great if you are in a party of less active walkers.

But the real party piece is on snow covered tracks. Makes for a faster trip as you can find lost tracks under the snow and not waste time searching.

Cheers

[Rob A]

PLB's are serious sh ... stuff. There are obligations once they are set off. PLBs arent just the province of backpackers in the bush. You are tapping into billions of dollars worth of systems.
"I think the one's that self activated were a result of a malfunction rather than the button being pushed." ....... I doubt it.

[simonm]

"I think the one's that self activated were a result of a malfunction rather than the button being pushed." ....... I doubt it.

So here is just two examples. Both times it seems malfunction was due to water ingress.

http://gnarlydognews.blogspot.com.au/2010/08/plb-problem-and-modification.html

http://nswskc.wordpress.com/2011/12/24/rescue-is-just-a-push-of-a-button-away-or-is-it/

[wayno]

the rules around using PLB's are clear, even if it is set off by accident or circumstances change meaning you no longer need rescue, once its set off. leave it going, SAR will keep looking for you even if the PLB is turned on briefly. you just make the search harder if you turn it off and then go on with your trip and move elsewhere.

[andrewbish]

Spot fails when wet...read Andrews trails and tracks blog in NZ.
GPS....

Actually not correct. The Spot2 survived a couple of river swims without fuss. The problem I had was losing it when it was ripped out of its cover on my pack shoulder strap in heavy scrub, due to inadequate tethering.

A related problem was an agreement with my wife that she would alert S&R if she didn't get an "I'm ok" message from me for 24 hrs. We have since modified our escalation protocol and I will use the tracking function for status updates.

(It was my iPhone that died in the water - it was in a press lock bag, which leaked. I have since bought a Lifeproof case for the iPhone)

[Rob A]

Interesting that people are having trouble with water ingress into constantly exposed PLBs when they should be using Epirbs.
Given it is probably one of the bigger markts, perhaps the regulatory authorities should start sorting things out.

Screen shot 2013-06-16 at 9.37.12 AM.png (119.56 KiB) Viewed 32346 times

[LandSailor]

ah, just marry up the iphone 5 with a Delorme inReach and you'll be happy anywhere.

Neat. But the running cost is going to be higher than my mobile contract fee, let alone the upfront cost. Not realistic unless I am a "pro" wilderness guy.

Not sure this is completely accurate compared to a Spot device. The Delorme Inreach costs $100 more initially for the hardware but for that you get the ability to send and *receive* messages.
For basic services on a US contract, the Delorme Inreach costs $120 per year ($10 monthly contract) and the Spot costs $100 per year.
The minimum Delorme service does not include tracking but does include 10 msgs per month. When you send an Inreach msg it automatically includes GPS co-ordinates (and clickable link to a map) and allows you to send to any email address or SMS. You cant receive emails on the Inreach (except from another Inreach device), you have to go to a special web site and login to deliver msgs to you. Im assuming this is to avoid receiving spam via satellite.

Inreach will also soon be releasing the Inreach SE with a virtual keyboard/display that does not need bluetooth pairing to a smartphone to type/send msgs.

Note: The above Delorme prices are for US contracts. Australian contracts have the usual ridiculous Australian markup (something like 300% more expensive last time I checked).
If you go for Inreach try to get the cheaper US monthly contract. Not sure if this is still possible as I got my US contract before they setup an Australian dealer network.

The other benefit of Inreach is it uses the more reliable Iridium satellite network. Spot devices use the Globalstar network.

[simonm]

Interesting that people are having trouble with water ingress into constantly exposed PLBs when they should be using Epirbs.
Given it is probably one of the bigger markts, perhaps the regulatory authorities should start sorting things out.

Screen shot 2013-06-16 at 9.37.12 AM.png

. Touche Rob, but not entirely true.

Gnarly is from Queensland and the regulations state on the Maritime Safety Queensland site: "All ships operating beyond smooth and partially smooth waters must carry a 406 MHz digital EPIRB if more than two nautical miles from land".

[GPSGuided]

Not sure this is completely accurate compared to a Spot device. The Delorme Inreach costs $100 more initially for the hardware but for that you get the ability to send and *receive* messages.
For basic services on a US contract, the Delorme Inreach costs $120 per year ($10 monthly contract) and the Spot costs $100 per year.

InReach's base Australian rate is $19.95/mth with PAYG text messages. Not sure how many recreational users can justify that rate, let alone the upfront unit cost.
http://alwaysinreach.com.au/index.php/p ... e/15-rates

[wayno]

in time, if google has its way, there will be thousands of balloons orbiting the planet in low orbits, enabling cheaper internet connection around the globe.... so if you can get a wireless connection to these on your smart phone you can use your smart phone on its own as an emergency device... just have to wait to see what the charges are...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digit ... ches-in-NZ

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0 ... o=1,00.asp