Up New River to Federation

[Dave Bremers]

er... i meant heroin the drug, not the female hero.

[ollster]

Maybe we need a form of methadone clinic for bushwalkers... I know some people who need an intervention.

[Ent]

Hi Brian (Eggs)

Great post and does show long posts on complex issues are well worth reading and found particularly poignant your summary where on the risk scale the venture stood and agree with both your logic and the resulting rating level. As for PLB, they are an "emergency" escape hatch for better or worst, but in a well planned walk they should be plan F to Z not plan B. Based on Dave's postings the planning does suggests that they were considered someway past F but of course other might hold a different letter is more appropriate. Actually taking SOB subtle jab at me about losing a pack with the PLB it does suggest for extreme remote areas subject to the reasonable possibility of losing a pack (extensive river crossings) more than one emergency beacon is not too much weight or cost for a second member of the party to carry. Ok I am gear freak so please be gentle with the grilling and I need to state I have no financial interest in PLBs except saving up to buy one or more accurately going on a walk that sensible preparations suggest one is a very good idea. Just I have fallen in love with a very expensive sexy mapping GPS that will blow my budget, better not to get lost than need rescue is my logic

Also Dave thanks for "hanging" around the site and do look forward to a well considered review of the walk. If there was one aspect of the walk that showed great understanding of the circumstance it was your group's decision to get to high ground and not abandon it with a self extraction attempt that you could see no reasonable chance of success with. Such thinking demonstrates great maturity and one I personally applaud and hope that if ever unfortunate to be in a similar position I will have the same situational awareness and given some postings the courage to do so. Of course I will be doing my best to avoid the need as part of my commitment to not trouble search and rescue with is army of professionals and volunteers but great to know they are out there and can respond so quickly.

Cheers Brett

[ILUVSWTAS]

Maybe we need a form of methadone clinic for bushwalkers... I know some people who need an intervention.

whatever do you mean oll.......

[Dave Bremers]

I'm up to over 4000 words on the trip report so rather than posting it here I'll put a note up and people can PM me for it when its done

[Dave Bremers]

The trip report is done, at least in its first draft, as I can't be bothered proof reading the 26 pages and probably won't be for a while. Its 8 068 words - you have been warned
PM me if you want a copy and I'll attach it there.

[Dave Bremers]

PM me your email, I can't work out how to attach it to PMs (if thats even possible).

[dee_legg]

Email address removed thanks to the suggestion of others... i didn't take in the PM part of Brem's offer, but i'll do that now.

[Dave Bremers]

No pics just yet, guys. Coming soon.

[tomberli]

Yeah, some pictures would be fantastic. It's rare to get anything from in there so it'll all be appreciated Especially keen to see the chasm that caught you out!

[tomberli]

Hm, having read your trip report definitely raises a few questions. First of all a big thanks for writing and sharing it though. Whether or not your actions were silly or irresponsible or what isn't really up to me to judge but I definitely believe that you deserve credit for sharing your stories and explaining your actions despite having failed.

I don't want to leap into a lengthy discussion (again) about what and why went wrong but judging from what you write I definitely believe you made some mistakes with your water and maybe even food management. Also really surprised to hear about your first aid kit. Are the items you list under 'personal first aid kit' all you had with you? Or was there a larger group kit that wasn't on the list too. Because it seems very slim for such an expedition.

[ollster]

...is my address for whenever you're sending it out!
Thanks

Dee, probably not a good idea to put your email address on the public forum. Unless you want to get spammed into infinity!

[tasadam]

Dee, probably not a good idea to put your email address on the public forum. Unless you want to get spammed into infinity!

It's a hotmail account - would it really make any differnce?
Dee, he has a point - as Dave said best to PM him your email address.

[svEngineer]

Hi ,

Would like to read the report & see photos, having heard Jmac give the walking club a talk of his earlier trip down the New River, I was staggered at the idea of getting only a km down the river in a day, and how they were taken back by the slow progress, and that from one of the most experienced group of walkers in North Tassie.

Dave's group did the right thing, called for help at a rescueable location, and no harm done.

I must admit to a bit of schadenfreude when I stumbled across the thread and read down to the initial rescue report, but the armchair tut- tutting by some has been awful, I think the bubble wrap nay sayers have lost perspective, they did not endanger the lives of others- at all and they have been responsible for their own actions.

svEngineer- PLB carrying bushwalker

[ollster]

the armchair tut- tutting by some has been awful, I think the bubble wrap nay sayers have lost perspective, they did not endanger the lives of others- at all and they have been responsible for their own actions.

Disgusting isn't it! Almost as bad as the rampant apologists who weren't even involved in the trying to counsel the guys then handing out pats on the back like Christmas pressies! "Bubble wrap" my little finger. We "nay sayers" just expect people not to get in over their head. Making sure you're properly prepared (including experience) is taking responsibility for your actions. Not getting so deep into the *&%$#! that your only option is to press "the button".

Seriously, I pretty sick of people saying "there, there, it's ok". There WERE lives endangered. How many flippin helicopter crashes have there been on the mainland recently in emergency situations (fire, admittedly)?

[Ent]

Seriously, I pretty sick of people saying "there, there, it's ok". There WERE lives endangered. How many flippin helicopter crashes have there been on the mainland recently in emergency situations (fire, admittedly)?

Um? Someone is demonstrating poor knowledge of understanding risk using ACA type program thinking drawing of a recent event with no analysis then using this for shock value to "prove" a suspect point. Would not surprise me that the greatest risk to the rescue team was the drive to the airport. Also this means using this thinking that training exercises should be not done by search and risk given how dangerous helicopters are? Given such concern I do not see how the writer can even consider now going bush yet alone even consider flying in a helicopter Hint, joy flights operate regularly over Mount Cook and if they were so dangerous as proposed then surely civil aviation would have banned them as they did with low level flights over the south pole.

It is downright annoying and dangerous this constant harping on at the rescue. It makes me think that the armchair experts with Google earth wanted something more dramatic to happen (gallows, kicking corpses what charming language suggesting some deeper issues of the posters) and are trying to frighten people out of seeking rescue by heaping criticism on those that have sought rescue. I did think originally some of the "Southern Confederates" posts was genuine but it now appears to be more a egomaniacal messiah complex armed with twenty-twenty hindsight with the mistaken belief that this gives them the invulnerable high ground to criticise in the absence of any sensible information. They had started building the "gallows" as soon as it appeared a rescue was undertaken. Just think of the consequence of your post and similar ones if some other group decides, motivated by such potential abuse, to avoid "pressing" the button, and pushes on with fatal result Based on what I have seen a great cloud of dust will be seen as our armchair experts head for the hills until they think it safe to criticise someone, anyone, but themselves.

What we have seen posted now is insane self extraction plans and once that has been demonstrated a farce followed up by fiend concerns for the helicopter crew safety. Maybe if they had been involved in search and rescue as a volunteer or even a community group that fund raises for search and rescue I might have more regard for the their ramblings.

To hold onto any of your remaining credibility stick to the facts and by all means question the attempted trip and the planning involved along with the experience processed by the group but please respect the decision to seek rescue along with any discussion on the risk involved to the professional (I consider volunteers be professionals based on their training regimes) rescue services. And be thankful that a ground search was not required as what would have most likely happened had the group attempted to follow armchair experts' advice.

Regards Brett

[Son of a Beach]

Both sides of this debate have some relevant points. Eg, it is better to be prepared and experienced enough to avoid requiring rescue as much as possible, and conversely, if rescue is required, then it should be used.

However, I would like you guys to find ways of saying this without insulting each other. I'd like the advice to be given in such a way that it is going to be genuinely helpful to the guys if/when they attempt another such walk, and not in such a way that it attacks them. I don't think they need any help to feel down about what happened. Circumstances will have made sure of that.

The term "armchair experts" is also a little insulting. I understand that it is intended to convey that advice/commentary is coming from somebody who was not at the scene or who doesn't know the full story. However, it also implies that it is coming from somebody who stays home and doesn't get involved in such activities and who is no expert on such situations, or has not walked through similarly difficult terrain. Unless certain that the person never gets involved in such walking, I would suggest that the term, "armchair experts" is not appropriate for them.

[stu]

As one of my regular walking team I can say that ollster does anything but sit in an 'armchair'.
He has done many difficult, off track routes since starting to walk together this year;
obviously not the route discussed on this thread but most weekends are spent exploring off-track areas & rarely on-track.
I think his opinion is as valid as the next persons, or in relating to such off track SW walks, more so than some.
I won't get further involved in this thread, just felt the need to stand up for one of my mates here based on recent comments.
Brett, can you relate to such terrain or off-track experiences yourself?

[PeterJ]

.............The term "armchair experts" is also a little insulting.......

Quite right Nik. When I read the posts knocking critical views as being from "armchair experts" I wonder how was it that someone who finds negatives should be considered any more "armchair" than those that don't find much to criticise in this saga. In fact I think that people who have experienced the wilds of Tasmania are more it likely to see some of the negatives than those without that background.

If the controversy surrounding this whole episode gives others with little experience food for thought then that is a good thing.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Well said Peter.
I do find it VERY interesting that the experienced members of this forum all seem to share the same view

[Ent]

Brett, can you relate to such terrain or off-track experiences yourself?

As mentioned I have no experience in that area. I am familiar early on with "harden" off track walks when considerably younger and frankly did not find it a pleasant way to spend a weekend wriggling through scrub following a river to get some "short cut" and by the standards of what I believe faces people on the New River my experience is very mild also not in a remote area. Similar to abseiling down into caves. Did a bit but found at over 6'3" when someone much smaller is squirming around I am stuck and much the same above ground in scrub. As for recommending an escape route unless you have walked that specific route I have grave concerns over such recommendations/suggestions and looking at a map or google earth (regardless of experience) to draw a line to get out is laughable compared to someone on the ground looking at the terrain as has demonstrated in the posting on scrub bashing. The escape route may well be harder than the original objective.

My primary concern has and always be people questioning people's decision to fire off a PLB or similar device. Having had a large number of staff at time report to me my pet dread was the worry that someone would decides to fix a problem themselves rather to avoid the embarrassment of calling for help. I have not had a workplace serious accident under my watch but a few people I know very well have had and nearly always one of the primary causes for the event was people choosing to act without calling for help as they wanted to avoid the fuss and and/or embarrassment. The resulting investigations nearly always lead to a series of decisions made to avoid complications and troubling people. In safety there should be no witch hunt and if this means the cost is a rather soft call for helps then this acceptable cost compared to the alternative. And I make no value judgement on whether this event was a soft call or otherwise and counsel others not to do the same as such can result in people being apprehensive in seeking help thus resulting in a terminal bad outcome.

I would be curious as to the ages of the critics as I get the feeling the harshest are probably not that much older than Dave's group. The older you get the more understanding you become over people's choices and the less certain you become over what is the "right" or "wrong" level of preparation. You learn the more you known the less you know of the subject as it is a lot bigger than what a "new" expert believes it to be. Also you accept/admire the power of youth's ability to overcome obstacles and the sheer folly of using "I told you so" and beating them over the head when the wheels fall off.

As I have said before if the route was not done before (assuming some prospector or non glory seeker has not already done and did not bother to report it plus some one walking a thousand or more year back as we tend to forget people have been here of over 15,000 years) there is very likely a good reason, and that been it is extremely difficult. Therefore, the failure of Dave's group to reach their destination should have been expected as an almost a certainty. In fact it would have been surprising with that history of the area had they achieved the task. Federation has a history of failed attempts in finding a route up it. People doing that walk are standing on the shoulders of the trail blazers and while experienced in the area themselves may not be experienced at trail blazing itself.

The question as I have said before would you or your colleges be writing what you have had the attempt worked? Australia praised Kingsford Smith when he crossed the Pacific but then slammed him and blamed him for the death of a rescuer when another path finding attempt failed. By modern standards the preparations for both events were poor and even by 1930's standard light on.

By all means examine the report and make comments but slamming people before a report comes out with no knowledge of their planning and experience suggests prejudice rather than a sensible review so does compromise any points you have or will raise regardless of their validity. As an accountant I have more than enough experience of people doing that

Regards Brett

[Taurë-rana]

Well said Peter.
I do find it VERY interesting that the experienced members of this forum all seem to share the same view

Um... I didn't agree with you, and I'm experienced, how do you know how experienced the other posters who disagree with you are? You know what they say about people who make assumptions

[ILUVSWTAS]

The key word in my post there is SEEM, Elf lady

[ollster]

As mentioned I have no experience in that area.

I thank you for being honest about your credibility. Don't call me "armchair".

We've seen the facts, and I have not criticised them for setting off the PLB. I didn't read the rest of your post, it's too long.

[jmac]

I've now read the very comprehensive report Dave kindly emailed me and it confirms in my mind the following:

1 It was too much too soon for this party. They still need to build up experience and toughness incrementally.

2 Fitness seemed adequate, going by the reported progress in the easier terrain, but toughness (resilience) is another matter.

3 If a party really wants to bag this route, a more reliable method of upstream travel will be advantageous. Alpacka Packrafts can be used successfully up streams. But "hard" is an unsatisfactory adjective to describe this work.

4 Without checking the locations precisely on Google Maps, I believe the "unmapped" chasm described by Dave is simply the Gibraltar Gorge. Clearly mapped and described in the Wild reference. Yes this country is difficult, but this is really only a minor obstacle. There is plenty more difficult terrain upstream too!

5 Their inexperience in scrub-bashing contributed to some decisions that didn't work out. A more experienced party would likely have made better time with the obstacles of the lower New, and once committed to the attempted escape route, would have got off the Gibraltar Ridge sooner, to the east and towards Mt. Bobs. The going would have been better in the valley, the creek bed itself would have provided water and valuable easier northing. Matt Brain and I had our coup on Provis Hills by using a creek most of the way from the New. It works, sure beats ridge-tops! I also reckon the west flank of Bobs would go OK, and we know it's Easy Street (relatively) from its summit.

6 Several aspects of their equipment could be improved. Dave has reflected upon this and is making some improvements.

7 Dave, on behalf of the party, demonstrated considerable goodwill and effort in preparation, but the basic message that this trip would be too much too soon unfortunately didn't over-ride his desire to attempt it.

8 Technology is changing the culture of exploration. More experienced members that can remember the additional edginess of pre-communications days (including me) just have to accept that it ain't the same culture any more. Our attitudes and opinions may affect or delay the change in culture, but the culture will change regardless.

In conclusion I will add that Dave's openness about his efforts is refreshing. There has also been a terrific amount of valuable constructive criticism by the members and moderators of this forum, which helps us all reflect upon our practice, and how we might operate better in the bush.

Cheers,

J.

[Taurë-rana]

Thanks J, a balanced, informative and non-judgemental post from someone who knows what they're talking about. I haven't been in that particular place, although I have been to Feder and (nearly) to Bobs, so it was good to read an informed view on the boys' trip.
Cheers,
TR

[ILUVSWTAS]

Agreed Elf Lady!


Jmac's point 1. is what some of us have been saying all along though.

If they want to do this route.. sure go for it, IN 5 YEARS TIME WHEN THE'YVE DONE SOME OTHER WALKS..... like the Western Arthurs, Prince of Wales, Frankland Range etc etc
Then if they find they can do walks like this no problem, move on to Propsting, Moniloths, Greystone

THEN it might be time to tackle something like the New River.

[ollster]

THEN it might be time to tackle something like the New River.

Is that the order you're planning them in ILSWT?

[Taurë-rana]

Agreed Elf Lady!


Jmac's point 1. is what some of us have been saying all along though.

If they want to do this route.. sure go for it, IN 5 YEARS TIME WHEN THE'YVE DONE SOME OTHER WALKS..... like the Western Arthurs, Prince of Wales, Frankland Range etc etc
Then if they find they can do walks like this no problem, move on to Propsting, Moniloths, Greystone

THEN it might be time to tackle something like the New River.

Not sure where the Moniloths are, come to think of it, not sure where there are Monoliths in Tassie either!

At the risk of repeating myself and also offending some people, I think that part of the problem is that mainlanders sometimes have no idea of what Tassie's wilderness is like. I was just reminiscing tonight about the urban, no, bushwalking legend that was around when I started walking about a group of mainlanders who started the Anne Circuit but got freaked out by the exposure and bolted, leaving a substantial amount of gear in there. I'm not sure how much of that was myth, and how much truth, but it illustrates a point.
The other walk I was thinking about was Feder - the 3 Tasmanians on the walk that I led weren't too worried about the fact that we didn't use a rope (maybe foolish, I can't remember but I wasn't bothered), but the one mainlander was concerned.

jmac's comment on toughness/resilience was interesting too, and that topic has been discussed here I believe: http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3020

I think they have probably learnt a fair bit just from this walk! Done their "apprenticeship" all in one go?

[DaveNoble]

I have not had a detailed read through all the postings on this thread. But I want to add that doing a lot of preparation and planning does not always make for a successful walk. I saw a an account of a NSW party that recently did a trip along part of the west coast of Tasmania - and that had done an amazing amount of preparation - eg spreadsheets showing tides, itineraries for each day, google earth flyovers etc..... But they seem to have neglected one small area- actually being prepared for the type of walking they would have to do. I don't think anyone in that party had walked through Tassie scrub before - and when they got to some - it seems as though they turned around and headed for a hut and then waited to be rescued (which did take place)

Dave