Pyrennes on TV

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Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 6:36 am

if you're interested in the Pyrennes you could do worse than watch teh Tour De France at the moment if you have sky , they are going through the pyrennes at present..
you can also download torrents of the stages from the internet
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 1:46 pm

Forget the scenery, I could not believe how Froome could ride away so easily from all the climbing greats ie. Contador, Cadel, Andy Schleck amongst others. We are supposed to be dope free now but these scenes only happened in the day of mega dopes eg. LA.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 1:52 pm

yeah well i think the others were riding like *&%$#!.. contador could barely keep up with his team mate, froome is the new kid on the block the others have been around a while now and they may be past their best. but its not over till it's over theres still a lot more mountain riding to come, can froome hold the lead and not blow himself to pieces. froome saved himself till right at the end, he has a superlative team around him like last year....
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 2:28 pm

Yes, Froome definitely has the power. Remember last year he had to wait for his captain, "Boring" Wiggins, on major climbs. Irrespective of what gave Froome the extra kick on all others, at least he attacked. Let's just hope that he continues to show that he deserves to win the yellow jersey and not do another Wiggins.

As for the Pyrennes, just spectacular! Any one done any walks there?
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 2:32 pm

he may be more versatile , just has more acceleration and a bigger sprint than the others to open up the gaps....
theres five bigish climbs to get over after the rest day, up to 1500metres most climbing from about 700 metres
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 2:54 pm

Well, being a climber, he is no sprinter but has sustainable power/weight ratio with more reserve than all others. The time gap of 4:13 he opened on Cadel has effectively sunk Cadel's chances for 2013 completely, along with all other known mountain goats. And it all happened on the first mountain stage, a Cat 1 stage at that! EPO used to give this kind of performance to riders. But in the no-dope age? Wow!
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 2:58 pm

well cadel was one of the worst top performers.... he's well off his game....
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 3:00 pm

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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 3:11 pm

The Sky team came out of British Cycling's program and certainly have not been short on science. But hard to believe improvements aren't incremental without some serious "advances". Irrespective, it'll be interesting to see the power analyses on these riders, ones that'll invariably shine more light after these mountain stages. Fingers crossed that all remain legit. It'll be a terrible let down if there's more furffy in this sport.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Sun 07 Jul, 2013 3:15 pm

lot less problems if they locked up the cheats, its theft when you take winnings belonging to legit people. a slap on the wrists for a couple of years is nothing if you're up for big earnings
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby Hallu » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 7:18 pm

The tour wouldn't be the tour without the Pyrénées and the Alps. This time it started from Corsica, which is also hiker paradise.

To get back on doping, there was a recent article where Antoine Vayer, previous cyclist then Festina trainer in the late 90's, calculated the power (in Watts) developed by cyclists thanks to distance, time, slopes etc... all across the tour's last 20/30 years history. And basically he calculated that above a certain power threshold, you're certainly taking drugs. Although Armstrong and Contador were clearly above that threshold, the "champion of power" was actually Miguel Indurain, who was never caught. Vayer demonstrated that 90's cyclists developed more power than current cyclists, which should be the opposite with new methods of training. The answer is doping of course, which was more widespread then. I've found an English article describing this : http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/06/ ... ent_290708

It is very sketchy regarding the law, but I would totally be in favor of an automatic ban from the race if you go above a scientific threshold of power above which a human being cannot go without illegal help. That would eliminate the biggest problem with the war on doping in sport : new undetectable drugs. Vayer thinks that the last tour winner who was probably clean was Greg LeMond in... 1990...
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 7:24 pm

they have the biological passports now. i'm not they monitor blood, anyone who exhibits too big a change in their blood markers to be legitimate is banned for cheating.... they know when red blood cell counts get above a certain level then they are cheating....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_passport
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 08 Jul, 2013 8:36 pm

It'll be close to impossible to prove when gene therapy really hit the "market". As for power criteria, it's hard as it's not a direct proof. It'll deter cheats but will invariably cause collateral damages to the innocents, however small that number may be. It's going to be tough, real tough.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 5:24 am

i dont know that training techniques have improved that much since the mid sixties...
peter snell's times run on cinder and grass tracks which is a second a lap slower than synthetic tracks would win him major races today,
he ran one minute forty four for 800m on a grass track, he ran most of it in front, i dont think anyone else ever repeated a feat like that. john walker couldnt beat that time on a cinder track.
bill bailie set a 20,000m world record in the early sixties on a cinder track, no new zealander has beaten that time anywhere in the world on a synthetic track....l
arthur lydiards training techniques of high volume long slow distance as a base with added strength and speed training to peak were developed in the fifties and are still in extensive use today.
training techniques havent improved that massively. its just that its taken a long time for more people to cotton on to the best training techniques, more people working together in a competition at the fastest pace means they benefit more from slipstreaming from each other, its a case of everyone catching up with what eddie merx was doing in the sixties with lighter gear, in cycling the gear is lighter today and more streamlined clothing, nutrition of athletes has become more consistent as well.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 8:47 am

The "sport" is a joke. It is unwatchable. If it wasnt for the scenery.....
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby doogs » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 11:09 am

I love the TDF but probably because I spent a lot of time in France in my Yooof. I might take up blood doping to keep up with some of the folks that I walk with..
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby Hallu » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 1:32 pm

Froome has already done as well as Armstrong-Ulrich back in 2003 climbs in terms of power... both of which admitted to doping. This wasn't in the "suspicious" league in terms of power, it was in the "so inhuman it cannot be achieved without enhancing drugs" league, hence Froome's doped. Simple as that. We already know the future 2013 winner is a cheater. Training alone can't bring you to that level of power. Say it isn't proved he's doped, say it's only interpretation if you want, but the facts are here : he's climbing as well and as fast as two confessed dope fiends...
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 1:48 pm

froome had one good day, yesterday he wasnt looking superhuman at all. he may be paying the price for riding out of his skin, or he may in fact be cheating. hopefully science can prove one or the other.... on the whole they arent riding as fast as the heavy doping years...
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby Hallu » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 2:29 pm

Vayer calculated that this year most of the cyclists are surprisingly 10 to 20% less powerful on the mountains than in previous years, all below 400 W. This percentage is exactly the amount you gain from doping. Froome developped a peak of 446 W (so 10 to 20% higher than the good clean climbers), which is impossible without cheating. 400 can be attributed to a big mental push, 446 can't. Contador, a well known cheater, is doing about 420 W on average on climbs.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 3:14 pm

thats one persons calculations, unless theres widespread acceptance amongst psysiologists that this theory is correct then its just one persons opinion only, he may be right and he may not be.... how do you know for sure how many watts someone is producing, if you dont know exactly what the winds are doing, if he had tail winds up the hill then that throws the calculations out, he's not sitting in a lab where he can be measured. he is outside with lots of variables...
its just speculation
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby Hallu » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 3:48 pm

The physics are correct. No one in the community is denying that, even those disagreeing with Vayer's conclusions. This power calculation is apparently quite simple to do, once you know the slope, wind conditions, the atmospheric pressure, the temperature, the weight of the guy and its bike, and of course the distance and detailed times. All of which are available because the Tour simply collects these data, just as a track and field event would. The only thing debatable is interpretation, but the numbers aren't. Of course he's using power as a measurement because it's an average over time (power=energy/time), usually a couple of minutes during a climb. And he's doing this on climbs, because that's when cyclists develop the maximum power, and that's where doping makes the most difference.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 4:01 pm

wind conditions on a hill climb will be variable if you are switching back and forward up a slope the wind will change, air turbulence up a mountainside, i have doubts about the accuracy of the calculations...
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 4:08 pm

wayno wrote:froome had one good day, yesterday he wasnt looking superhuman at all. he may be paying the price for riding out of his skin, or he may in fact be cheating. hopefully science can prove one or the other.... on the whole they arent riding as fast as the heavy doping years...

Well, that's also GC tactics. With such a commanding lead, Froome does not need to exert and attack but to defend. So we won't see him doing the super-human for a while. In the meantime, Porte "died" in St 9 after an almost as stellar performance as Froome, along with all other Sky team-mates. But Froome managed to stay in there and personally covered 3 attacks by Moviestar the day after. Ummm...
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 4:11 pm

i just think froome and porte were the only ones willing to go 100% so early on in the tour, and now they need the same amount of time to recover as any other top cyclist would. theres always a chance they are cheating, maybe time will tell
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 4:30 pm

I agree that we need to give them the benefit of the doubt. But there's no error in suspicions, or else no one would have found all those past cheats. If they are great, then they will be true greats in years to come ie. When all doubts have vanished on their true abilities. Time will tell.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby Hallu » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 4:33 pm

wayno wrote:wind conditions on a hill climb will be variable if you are switching back and forward up a slope the wind will change, air turbulence up a mountainside, i have doubts about the accuracy of the calculations...


Yes but they know the conditions, they've been doing the same climbs for 100 years now. He's basing his calculations on well known parts of the tour, not new ones. For the wind conditions, they apply an average. The wind doesn't change direction every 10 sec, and air turbulence is maximum at an edge, not on a flank. It could be great at the end of the climb, but not during the climb. So at best, in some cases you could lose some precision, but it wouldn't affect general tendencies. After all, this method shows that confessed cheaters DO produce superhuman powers. To have the method overestimates power (hence calling a cheater somebody who isn't), you'd need the guy to have suddenly a huge back wind helping him forward, or great drafting from a rider in front of him, while you thought in your calculations that there was facing wind and no drafting. But if you had a wind like this you could clearly see it and it would be recorded, and drafting from a rider would be, well, shot by the cameras, and the method can easily take drafting into account. My guess is, if by chance there were so much turbulence on day, such as in a storm, and if by chance the race did take place, they wouldn't bother to calculate powers that could prove wrong anyway.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 09 Jul, 2013 4:54 pm

Further, many of these Hors category or Cat 1 climbs involve major zig zags and wind effect tend to get negated. And for those super performances where suspicions arise, these riders typically are attacking solo, often facing winds not coming from their tail. Head, side and swirling winds can only cause havoc on the rider and power calculations are more likely to under-estimate here.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Thu 11 Jul, 2013 4:46 pm

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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby highercountry » Thu 11 Jul, 2013 5:41 pm

Drugs or no drugs these guys still perform superhuman efforts.
The average speed for the Pyrennes section, nearly 200 kilometers in distance, was about 38 KPH. I've been cycling for years and struggle to average much over 20 KPH up any sort of hill, let alone a mountain range.
At one stage yesterday they were riding into a strong headwind at an average speed of 50 KPH and finished in a sprint at 70. All this at the end of a 200 kilometer ride. Truly awesome.
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Re: Pyrennes on TV

Postby wayno » Thu 11 Jul, 2013 5:48 pm

yeah but they are drafting off each other riding the lightest bikes with streamlined gear. and they are doing it all year round...
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