Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby GBW » Sat 02 May, 2020 11:14 am

http://maps.ozultimate.com/ is a great resource. You can use the open button on the left to load a GPX. On the desktop it should show up like this peregrinator...

map demo.JPG


The only criticism I have is the rendering doesn't retain definition on a zoom out.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby north-north-west » Sat 02 May, 2020 1:10 pm

Alana84 wrote:I’ve just googled vehicle entry fees for KNP. Do I have this right - $17 per vehicle per day or $190 for an annual pass? So if I’m going for an 8 day walk I’m up for $136 in entry fees?

Sounds kinda expensive to me. Is there an alternative? I was looking at parking at either Guthega Pondage or Charlottes Pass.


Anywhere in that park of KNP you have to pay to park. You used to be able to leave a car at Geehi Flats for days but I think that loophole has been closed.
This is one reason I took to doing most of my KNP walking from elsewhere: Pockets, Round Mtn, Kiandra, Long Plain etc. Fees apply to both Charlottes and Guthega, as well as pretty well anywhere near the resorts.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Alana84 » Sat 02 May, 2020 1:23 pm

north-north-west wrote:
Alana84 wrote:I’ve just googled vehicle entry fees for KNP. Do I have this right - $17 per vehicle per day or $190 for an annual pass? So if I’m going for an 8 day walk I’m up for $136 in entry fees?

Sounds kinda expensive to me. Is there an alternative? I was looking at parking at either Guthega Pondage or Charlottes Pass.


Anywhere in that park of KNP you have to pay to park. You used to be able to leave a car at Geehi Flats for days but I think that loophole has been closed.
This is one reason I took to doing most of my KNP walking from elsewhere: Pockets, Round Mtn, Kiandra, Long Plain etc. Fees apply to both Charlottes and Guthega, as well as pretty well anywhere near the resorts.


OK. That's the way it is then. Seems like its worth paying for the convenience in this case.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Ms_Mudd » Sun 03 May, 2020 12:54 am

After pondering a bit, I am thinking of maybe Tharwa to Thredbo. Feels a bit 'neat' to do it that way , easy to organise and a good place for my husband and kids to meet me at the end and holiday in the area. It would give me a good starting point to return to do the AAWT in instalments as time and weather permit in the future.

Wondering though at the amount of snow I could expect when I would be walking. My annual leave is from the start of September until the 11th October, ideally I would want to be walking the second half of September and finishing up by the 30th. I am happy to challenge myself to some extent, but having said that do not like to do a whole lot of nav if I can get away with it- when on my own my mind seems to wander as much as my feet do and I like that uninterrupted process and how I feel on the tail end of it.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Lophophaps » Sun 03 May, 2020 12:55 pm

In September you would need skis for much of the AAWT past Kiandra, with an option of snow before that. If you want to do the AAWT then you should start in late October. In mid-October 2018 I had to abandon Kiandra to Dead Horse Gap at Schlink Pass due to snow.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby crollsurf » Sun 03 May, 2020 5:47 pm

Lophophaps wrote:In September you would need skis for much of the AAWT past Kiandra, with an option of snow before that. If you want to do the AAWT then you should start in late October. In mid-October 2018 I had to abandon Kiandra to Dead Horse Gap at Schlink Pass due to snow.


Totally agree, would also need some bravado crossing the Creeks and Rivers with all that snow melt. Mid-November is perfect IMO.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Ms_Mudd » Sun 03 May, 2020 7:21 pm

Back to the old drawing board then I think.
Might do some sections of either guidebook 8 or 9 of the BNT.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby peregrinator » Mon 04 May, 2020 1:53 pm

GBW wrote:http://maps.ozultimate.com/ is a great resource. You can use the open button on the left to load a GPX. On the desktop it should show up like this peregrinator...

map demo.JPG


The only criticism I have is the rendering doesn't retain definition on a zoom out.


Thanks, GBW, but this doesn’t address my problem. (As described in my reply to Zapruda.) I suspect though that I’ve been naive in thinking that a Map will automatically load into the previously empty window after I search using the box at upper RHS and identify one.

Instead of expecting that to happen, I’m guessing that a map file already existing on my computer has to be imported into maps.ozultimate.com/

Looking further into this, I see that SIX Maps has been mentioned as a source of free topos. But all I see on that site is the possibility of downloading PDFs. Ozultimate is asking for GPX, KML, GeoJSON (never heard of that last one before). So do I need to do some kind of conversion? If so, how? Or am I going in entirely the wrong direction?

By the way, GBW, you’ve got the next turn in the Where-is-it game.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Zapruda » Mon 04 May, 2020 2:50 pm

Ms_Mudd wrote:Back to the old drawing board then I think.
Might do some sections of either guidebook 8 or 9 of the BNT.

I agree with Crollsurf and Lop. The area south of Mt Jagungal is going to be covered in snow in September and October requiring snowshoes/skis and knowledge of how travel across the snow.

But the northern end of the alps is relatively lean on snow at that time of the year, only the highest peaks being properly covered. North of Kiandra its almost snow free until you get to Murrays gap on the border. You do get snow storms occasionally but I find that the residual snow is easy to walk on and disappears within a day or two.

You could easily do a loop through Namadgi from Tharwa to Kiandra and back again going a slightly different way. Lots of huts and interesting things to see. Only one really bad river crossing that can be avoided.

Let me know
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Zapruda » Mon 04 May, 2020 2:51 pm

peregrinator wrote:
GBW wrote:http://maps.ozultimate.com/ is a great resource. You can use the open button on the left to load a GPX. On the desktop it should show up like this peregrinator...

map demo.JPG


The only criticism I have is the rendering doesn't retain definition on a zoom out.


Thanks, GBW, but this doesn’t address my problem. (As described in my reply to Zapruda.) I suspect though that I’ve been naive in thinking that a Map will automatically load into the previously empty window after I search using the box at upper RHS and identify one.

Instead of expecting that to happen, I’m guessing that a map file already existing on my computer has to be imported into maps.ozultimate.com/

Looking further into this, I see that SIX Maps has been mentioned as a source of free topos. But all I see on that site is the possibility of downloading PDFs. Ozultimate is asking for GPX, KML, GeoJSON (never heard of that last one before). So do I need to do some kind of conversion? If so, how? Or am I going in entirely the wrong direction?

By the way, GBW, you’ve got the next turn in the Where-is-it game.


No, there should be a map there. You don’t need to load it. What browser are you using? I don’t have any issues with the popular browsers.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby peregrinator » Mon 04 May, 2020 3:04 pm

Thanks Zapruda, that probably narrows down my concerns. I'm using Firefox on Mac OS 10.14. So maybe I'm doing something wrong when attempting to select a map.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Zapruda » Mon 04 May, 2020 3:07 pm

peregrinator wrote:Thanks Zapruda, that probably narrows down my concerns. I'm using Firefox on Mac OS 10.14. So maybe I'm doing something wrong when attempting to select a map.


Im on that version of Mac OS as welland safari works well with the website. I don’t use Firefox but maybe that’s the problem. Good luck!
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby peregrinator » Mon 04 May, 2020 3:37 pm

Voila -- talk about a simple fix! Talk about an idiot for not trying that idea myself.

And now I can see why this is a most elegant tool. Thanks again.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Zapruda » Mon 04 May, 2020 3:39 pm

peregrinator wrote:Voila -- talk about a simple fix! Talk about an idiot for not trying that idea myself.

And now I can see why this is a most elegant tool. Thanks again.


Awesome! It really is helpful. I plan all my walks on it.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby peregrinator » Mon 04 May, 2020 3:46 pm

Zapruda wrote:
peregrinator wrote:Voila -- talk about a simple fix! Talk about an idiot for not trying that idea myself.

And now I can see why this is a most elegant tool. Thanks again.


Awesome! It really is helpful. I plan all my walks on it.


Yes, I wish there were equivalents in other states, especially Victoria. Maybe there are? As you've probably sussed out by my questions, I don't know much about digital mapping.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby rcaffin » Tue 05 May, 2020 5:17 pm

As an alternative to fighting with mobile phone and digital maps, try buying a standard topo map, and carrying a compass.
In 30+ years of walking in KNP, I have never used anything else. I admit, these days we don't look at the paper map very much: it is in our heads. We tend to camp most anywhere. Shelter is nice of course.

You can get a (school) bus to Thredbo and go up in the quad chair. I am told the ski tube no longer runs outside the snow season - SHAME!
Guthega, Munyang and Charlottes need a car.

To get to Cesjacks you need a 4WD and some local knowledge. The Whites track is visible from below. From up top - that needs experience!
8687.jpg
8687.jpg (116.38 KiB) Viewed 3849 times

Cheers
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Ms_Mudd » Tue 05 May, 2020 5:58 pm

Zapruda wrote:\
I agree with Crollsurf and Lop. The area south of Mt Jagungal is going to be covered in snow in September and October requiring snowshoes/skis and knowledge of how travel across the snow.

But the northern end of the alps is relatively lean on snow at that time of the year, only the highest peaks being properly covered. North of Kiandra its almost snow free until you get to Murrays gap on the border. You do get snow storms occasionally but I find that the residual snow is easy to walk on and disappears within a day or two.

You could easily do a loop through Namadgi from Tharwa to Kiandra and back again going a slightly different way. Lots of huts and interesting things to see. Only one really bad river crossing that can be avoided.

Let me know


The idea of walking down south is very appealing, I am a bit dim and didn't realise how much snow would still be about at that time of year if I went beyond Kiandra.
I love the idea of a loop! I also love the idea of not being swept away in a river crossing that can be avoided ;-) Tell me more :D :D :D :D

Being down south means my husband and kids can meet me at the end for a holiday- it will be my wedding anniversary and then my 40th bday the day after. Staying somewhere 'nice' and further down south in the snow would be really special, then we can 'slum' it like we normally do and road trip, camp and geocache our way home.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Zapruda » Tue 05 May, 2020 7:20 pm

rcaffin wrote:As an alternative to fighting with mobile phone and digital maps, try buying a standard topo map, and carrying a compass.
In 30+ years of walking in KNP, I have never used anything else. I admit, these days we don't look at the paper map very much: it is in our heads. We tend to camp most anywhere. Shelter is nice of course.

You can get a (school) bus to Thredbo and go up in the quad chair. I am told the ski tube no longer runs outside the snow season - SHAME!
Guthega, Munyang and Charlottes need a car.

To get to Cesjacks you need a 4WD and some local knowledge. The Whites track is visible from below. From up top - that needs experience!
8687.jpg

Cheers


You know you don’t need to make your thoughts about mobile phones and digital maps known in every thread there is mention of it, Roger? The belittling is getting tiresome.

There would be a few stockman out there that would chuckle at your topo maps and compass.

Try to realise that for a lot of people the accessibility of these apps and digital maps make exploring new places easier and simpler. Isn’t that a good thing?

And before you say it, yes digital devices fail but so do soggy maps, of which I have seen many...
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Zapruda » Tue 05 May, 2020 7:24 pm

Ms_Mudd wrote:
Zapruda wrote:\
I agree with Crollsurf and Lop. The area south of Mt Jagungal is going to be covered in snow in September and October requiring snowshoes/skis and knowledge of how travel across the snow.

But the northern end of the alps is relatively lean on snow at that time of the year, only the highest peaks being properly covered. North of Kiandra its almost snow free until you get to Murrays gap on the border. You do get snow storms occasionally but I find that the residual snow is easy to walk on and disappears within a day or two.

You could easily do a loop through Namadgi from Tharwa to Kiandra and back again going a slightly different way. Lots of huts and interesting things to see. Only one really bad river crossing that can be avoided.

Let me know


The idea of walking down south is very appealing, I am a bit dim and didn't realise how much snow would still be about at that time of year if I went beyond Kiandra.
I love the idea of a loop! I also love the idea of not being swept away in a river crossing that can be avoided ;-) Tell me more :D :D :D :D

Being down south means my husband and kids can meet me at the end for a holiday- it will be my wedding anniversary and then my 40th bday the day after. Staying somewhere 'nice' and further down south in the snow would be really special, then we can 'slum' it like we normally do and road trip, camp and geocache our way home.


I’ll post an idea for you tomorrow Ms Mudd. Will you have your own vehicle?
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Ms_Mudd » Tue 05 May, 2020 7:32 pm

Thanks, I am not being lazy, just short on any knowledge for Namadgi and KNP and not entirely where to start with such a trip yet.
I read over some trip reports across the weekend that I found online, so the research has started. I really value local, experienced intel and am so grateful for this forum. I have found in the past, hints and tips from forum users have ended up being super valuable to me on my adventures.

I may or may not have my own car, whichever works out best/ I would possibly leave it for my husband to drive to meet me or alternatively take it myself if it makes logistics easier and the fam can catch the Countrylink train down to Canberra for me to pick them up.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Zapruda » Wed 06 May, 2020 9:11 am

Ms_Mudd wrote:Thanks, I am not being lazy, just short on any knowledge for Namadgi and KNP and not entirely where to start with such a trip yet.
I read over some trip reports across the weekend that I found online, so the research has started. I really value local, experienced intel and am so grateful for this forum. I have found in the past, hints and tips from forum users have ended up being super valuable to me on my adventures.

I may or may not have my own car, whichever works out best/ I would possibly leave it for my husband to drive to meet me or alternatively take it myself if it makes logistics easier and the fam can catch the Countrylink train down to Canberra for me to pick them up.


Thats the beauty of this forum Ms Mudd, there are lots of knowledgable people here and they are more than happy to share that knowledge, especially in times of isolation :)

http://maps.ozultimate.com/?lat=-35.761 ... 8713466792

I thought this route up last night. It is a very rough idea and it shouldn't be taken as gospel. If you are keen we can develop it further.

It is about 230km long and It takes in all the AAWT in the ACT and most of it north of Kiandra in NSW. The route is mostly on management trails and there is only one bit of non AAWT off track walking but it is easy and pleasant. Id expect that this would take someone anywhere between 8 and 12 leisurely days. Carrying that much food can be a pain but I have some ideas for that.

Keep in mind that this all depends on Namadgi re-opening. It is still closed because of fire damage. There has been no word on when it will re-open again...

You start and finish at the Namadgi visitor centre near Tharwa. A car can be left here free of charge.

It takes in many beautiful huts and areas. Most notably Blue Waterholes and the gorges, Nungar Plain, Baroomba Rocks and Mt Bimberi. You will see lots of Feral horses and a good assortment of birdlife. Water is abundant for most of the walk.

Some of the dangers mostly revolve around poor weather, including snow, low temperatures ( I recorded -9c on Tantangara Plain one September morning...) and high river crossings. I have given rough alternates for the dangerous river crossings if they are high. I can provide more detail on the alternates if we get to that stage.

Have a gander and ask any questions that pop in to your head. If it doesn't appeal to you I completely understand, It might not be for everyone :)

I also had another thought last night. The Hume and Hovel walking track from Yass to Albury could be an option. I have never walked it but I have heard good things. September might be the perfect time to walk it as well.

https://www.humeandhovelltrack.com.au/
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Ms_Mudd » Wed 06 May, 2020 5:01 pm

Zapruda, you are wonderful. Just back from a walk now, will very much look forward to settling in with a cuppa this evening to peruse your suggestion.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby peregrinator » Thu 07 May, 2020 1:13 pm

rcaffin wrote:As an alternative to fighting with mobile phone and digital maps, try buying a standard topo map, and carrying a compass. In 30+ years of walking in KNP, I have never used anything else. I admit, these days we don't look at the paper map very much: it is in our heads . . .


I realise that this tangential discussion of digitally aided bushwalking should really be in a new topic. But there have been several contributions to this discussion after Zapruda mentioned the maps.ozultimate planning tool. I wonder, Zapruda, if it is possible to transport the relevant posts to a new topic at this stage? That would make future reference to that tool easier to negotiate.

Roger, like you, I use map and compass to get me where I want; and probably more important, get me back again. Like you, I can do all that without a GPS device. But I’d like to inform you about a few reasons why it may be worth considering such technology without the disdain you express about its use.

But first, as you also mentioned mobile telephones, I’m with you there. I do not have a smart phone and do not need one for any tasks, bushwalking or other. In fact, many of the places where I walk would probably not have coverage, so why would I bother?

I began using map and compass twenty years ago and gradually acquired navigational proficiency in various terrain. All my walks from that time on have been done using map and compass.

However, I bought a basic GPS device perhaps five years ago, for various reasons as follows. I wanted to investigate routes and ideas mentioned in this forum. In general, I use the GPS and associated computer software primarily to prepare for trips, rather than during walks. It is so much easier to prepare digitally rather than rule up routes and measure bearings and distances on paper. It can save hours.

It is possible to end up with more walking options for a given area than one will actually have time to complete on a given trip. But that’s useful if some options become unavailable due to unforeseen events, such as bad weather or, as has happened to me twice, tree fall on an approach road in the Victorian alps.

As Lophophaps remarked in a post here earlier today, marking the location of a critical food/water stash is another good time-saving reason for creating a GPS waypoint.

Most of the time on a walk, my device is not even turned on. It is turned on only (1) for checking when I’m seriously challenged by a route for some reason, or (2) if I’m approaching a very limited number of key decision points that I’ve prepared at home. Then I turn it off again once all is reasonably clear. I have not used it to up to now to record a route, and I record only a minimal number of waypoints for return journeys at spots that are tricky for whatever reason.

I have to point out that I’ve been walking in the Flinders and Gammon Ranges every year in the last decade. Unlike for KNP, where maps have that luxurious 1:25k scale, the South Australian maps are 1:50k. That terrain is generally far more rugged and steeper, with multifarious dry creeks going off every-which-way, than what I have seen in my admittedly lesser number of walks so far in KNP. By far the majority of VicMaps (for my home state) are now also 1:50k. I’m not saying that the different map scales really make a massive difference once one is out on the land. But I am trying to reinforce the idea that walk preparation is decidedly easier with a zoom-able digital map.

A final thought. You use the pronoun “we” when referring to activities. I assume that’s not the “royal we”, and that you have one or more companions when walking. If so, that might aid in solving navigational issues through negotiation with other experienced walkers. At least its an option available to you. My walks are all solo. Any decisions I make are mine and mine alone.

So ultimately I bought a GPS device for the same reason I got a PLB. Both could potentially save my life or save me from serious injury. They did cost a bit, but given that I have amassed a large number of printed topos over the years, I now very rarely need to buy any of those increasingly expensive but potentially fragile items, and I get any necessary updates digitally instead, for free.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby tom_brennan » Fri 08 May, 2020 10:34 am

GBW wrote:The only criticism I have is the rendering doesn't retain definition on a zoom out.


It's dependent on the tiles provided by NSW Spatial Services. It used to better (Dec 2017) but they did something that degraded the lower zoom level tiles. I wrote to them about it, but no luck on improving them.

peregrinator wrote:Yes, I wish there were equivalents in other states, especially Victoria. Maybe there are? As you've probably sussed out by my questions, I don't know much about digital mapping.


It requires the state mapping agency to provide a source of tiles. When I last looked, NSW and Tasmania were the only states to have done this. So someone could set up a similar service for Tasmania. Maybe other states are catching up now?
Bushwalking NSW - http://bushwalkingnsw.com
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby rcaffin » Sun 10 May, 2020 5:48 pm

Hi Peregrinator (et al)

Ah well, I started using map and compass in the Boy Scouts. That was 60 years ago. I am now 74. Sigh.

I do own a very basic (and now quite old) GPS unit. I bought it to sort out a map error in the deeps of Wollemi. Some of those Wollemi maps are notorious for small errors. That worked OK. I also used it on our snowshoe multi-day walk some years ago (Thredbo to Kiandra), when we had to bail out due to the weather. Thick fog, 100 kph wind, getting late, so we put the tent up (crawling), got inside, had dinner, then turned the GPS on to find out where we were. It was somewhere relatively stupid, like on the crest of the Main Range. Very stupid place to be. My MYOG tunnel tent was fine.

Yes, we do have a mobile phone - one from the 3G era. It is our 'ring the NRMA' phone when in the car. Still perfectly adequate for that. I did SMS our children from near the top of Jag once, in the early days, but it was a lot of key-stroke hassle.

KNP maps: I know that you can now get 1:25k for some KNP areas, but as far as I can see, they are mostly just scaled up from the 1:50k KNP maps. And the coverage is patchy. So in general we still navigate in KNP off the 1:50k maps.

'WE' - my wife and myself. We have been walking together since we got married at Uni. I navigate, and Sue tells me when I am going wrong. Trust me, it DOES help!

Cheers
Roger
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby peregrinator » Mon 11 May, 2020 11:55 am

Roger, I've only got two KNP topos so far. Started travelling there a few years ago after I worked out that it didn't take a hell of lot more time to get to some parts by car from Melbourne than it takes to get to east Gippsland. How does one determine which maps are “just scaled up from the 1:50k KNP maps”?

One of those 3G telephones might not be much further advanced than Boy Scouts semaphore, but better than nothing.

I don’t want to disrupt your successful duet, therefore I won’t ask whether your other member is available on a contract basis for navigational assistance.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Mark F » Mon 11 May, 2020 5:19 pm

peregrinator wrote:How does one determine which maps are “just scaled up from the 1:50k KNP maps”?


I suspect part of the issue is that the 25k sheets such as Perisher Valley, Geehi and Jagungal etc have 20m contours where others, eg Cooma, Kanangra have 10 m contours. 20m contours appear standard for 50k sheets but 25k sheets are usually 10m contours. It seems that the 25k maps that fall within the extent of the 100k Kosciuszko sheet - all maps starting with 2525 - have 20m contours. It also seems to apply to the extent of the 100k Jacobs River sheet (8524).
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby crollsurf » Mon 11 May, 2020 9:06 pm

Walk your own walk and if you want to walk with a Paddy made pack, I get that but otherwise, forget the hard copy maps.

It's mainly open country, be observant, don't panic and carry a compass. If your phone fails, don't walk down into the scrub and you'll be right.

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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Neo » Mon 11 May, 2020 9:47 pm

For other areas, but I've just ordered another 5 topos!

Have a set for Thredbo to Mt Jagungal area but not looking at them until it becomes a possibility to me. Likely next summer.
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Re: Multiday walks in Kosciuszko NP

Postby Ms_Mudd » Fri 15 May, 2020 3:28 am

Still playing about with ideas. Thanks for the route suggestion, I like the idea of a loop, much more satisfying than an out and back mission I think.
Unsure how I feel about the possibility of sustained snow, even in the Northern end. I intend to get out in the white stuff a bit locally this season and see how I go, my snow experience is limited to finally just getting out in it last year as often as I was able, typically in seasons past, I would just stick to Coastal or lower walks in the Barrington Tops. I was hoping the camping bans would be lifted so I could spend some time in my tent, but so far no joy on that front.
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