Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

[dplanet]

I just looked at the "System" $34- to camp at an unpowered site in the Brisbane Range NP???.

What a joke, $34 for an unpowered site in Brisbane Range NP! It was $30 for a powered site for a car, a mini camping van and two adults in a holiday park near Halls Gap just before this winter.

[dplanet]

Just to be reminded of a good service and reasonable fees provided by Mt Field NP in Tasmania. Facilities included hot showers + washing machine + dryer. Solo camper was taken into account.

[MartyGwynne]

Well I finally got a reply back from Parksvic, it sort of left me a little short of why I needed but at least they answered (see below) Parksvic answers are in italics after my question.
As you can see they do not have a map or even a sketch to show where the campsites are which leaves us guessing as to where we can find them??
Have a look at it and see what you think.
I am sure this will be the standard we are going to get from now on.... I think they have a long way to go before this is a smooth system which works.
Oh yes by the way you can not get mobile reception at the camp sites so the reply to call 13 1963 is a sort of cop out, I do not think it will be answered after hours when a lot of people get to camp sites.
OK I do admit I am not a fan of the new system but would like to support it if it was able to be improved.
Marty.

Hi.

I am trying to book a boat accessible only camp site at Tamboon Inlet.
I have about 6 camp site to choose from but I can not seem to be able to find out where the camp sites are by a map. http://www.parkstay.vic.gov.au/croajingolong-national-park-boat-based-camping#/accom/67685
All I get is a brief description which is very basic and unhelpful.

Can you send me a map which says where the sites are located? Only map we have - http://www.parkstay.vic.gov.au/croajing ... ccom/67685

Also if I get there and the site is taken, how do I get compensated for that? Phone 13 1963 and we'll move the other party on.

If I get there and the site is taken by others can I camp else where? Phone 13 1963 and we'll move the other party on

If I get there and can't camp for whatever reason (fire, flood, rain etc) and move onto another site how would I book, would I get compensated? Check website or phone 13 1963 before travel for any Change of Conditions information.

OK. If I get there and can't camp for the above reasons and I can't get any internet how do I go about booking? (I am not going to turn around and go home and re-book and then drive back again - 4-5 hour drive???) Pre-book before travelling is the reqi=uirement for Parks Victoria venues that are bookable via http://www.parks.vic.gov.au

Why can't we still have the honesty system put back into place? That was a previous system, we now take bookings via http://www.parks.vic.gov.au

How could I check if a vacant camp site is booked if the one I booked is taken and the big hairy drunk bikies (for example) are not going to move for me when asked to do so - or I am too scared to ask? Phone 13 1963 and we'll move the other party on

If I book today can I drive up and assume my payment/booking is confirmed? Yes

If I am Kayaking does this count as Boat camping? Yes

If I would like to camp at the Choof Choof camp site how do I find that on the web site (I did a search and could not find it)? Not looked after by Parks Victoria, contact DEPI - 136 186 or http://www.depi.vic.gov.au

Thanks for your help.

Martin Gwynne.

[neilmny]

It's a sick joke isn't it, phone blah blah blah and we'll move the other party on.......idiots...........it's very
hard not to swear. So basically no responsibility is going to be taken by Parks if someone pinches your
booked camping spot.......idiots. Can you imagine a Parks person being dispatched to Croajingalong
to move the other party on........idiots. They've basically f....ed the whole system........idiots.

[sim1oz]

Hi neilmny, while I wouldn't show your post to my kids, you have pretty much summed it up. Parks Vic presume that there will be phone reception and you can phone 13 1963. Maybe the pollies and desk jockey bureaucrats should visit our National Parks before they put systems like this in place. They clearly have no clue!!!

[neilmny]

Yes sorry about that Simone but I find the whole thing ...........heartbreaking really to think our
wonderful parks are being whittled away from us.........I'm 60 and have enjoyed the parks for
pretty much my whole life (and payed the taxes that kept them)... first with Mum and Dad and my brothers and
sister, then my own kids and was looking forward to the same enjoyment with my grandson.
This will be the beginning of a massive inflation of prices in all sorts of accomodation...once the caravan parks
realise we'll pay $54.00 for next to nothing imagine where there prices will go, not to mention motel type accomodation
for road travellers. Napthine and his cronies have made there mark all right, I won't be forgetting it.

[Snowzone]

Your completely correct Neil! It annoys me that there can be no more spontaneity with this type of book before you go system. What if your traveling and your unsure where you may end up, you come across a lovely campsite and cannot stay there because you have not prebooked and now have no internet or phone reception.
Don't even get me started on the prices and how discrimatory it is against solo campers.... *&%$#! it makes my blood boil.

[Lophophaps]

Stupid system. What if you find a nice spot, have not paid but will pay later when you reach a PV office, or from home? So, set up camp, and at 10 pm the person that has booked that camp site arrives. Can this happen? Is there any way to determine at the site if that site has been booked and when? There may soon be another fee - $7 to see the GP due to high blood pressure. I think I'll continue to find free camp sites that offer similar facilities to many cited above - flat ground and water. If I pay $15 it will be for a caravan parks, hot showers, and ice creams from the office. PV camp sites do not have ice creams, an unfortunate omission in summer.

[MartyGwynne]

So here is what we have to do - NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT - actually do.
1. Write a letter of your displeasure to your local victorian member (preferably all candidates now there is only 100 days left). Keep it polite and dot pointed try to stay away from rambling complaining as it will be discarded.
2. Write to your favourite shock jock, TV current affairs, radio station, newspaper etc to get the issues out there and known by the wider general public.
3. Write to ParksVic outlining the complaints you have, how they should be corrected, any improvements they should concentrate on etc.

OK Here I go I'm putting a new ribbon in my "Olivetti" and about to start typing away..... (sorry only older generation folk will know what that means)

I will try to draft up a format letter which you can feel free to copy.
Marty.

[Lophophaps]

Agreed, but I have something far better than a typewriter - a cuneiform tablet. When my message is written I can throw it at the recipient. My aim is good. However, I wonder if PV understand Sumerian or Elamite. We shall see. No matter, the message will have impact.

[MartyGwynne]

Well this is an electronic copy of the old olivetti carbon paper ...

Hello.

I am writing to raise concerns to recent changes to the Victorian Parks camping and accommodation fees effective July 1 2014.



Bookings are only able to be made by a phone call (13 1963 Business hours only) or by the internet.
Extra fees are charged if you do use the phone booking system. This is unfair to those who do not have access to the internet.
There have been many new regulations and conditions introduced along with these fees which have not been very well displayed or advertised.
The deletion of the honesty system of paying for a campsite. This makes it very hard to stay at a site you have just visited and decide to stay there (unplanned) as in most cases there is no internet nor phone reception or public phone box available. The implication is that you are camping illegally and may be subjected to a fine (I am unsure what the implications are on this issue).
Some sites listed as available to book do not have a site map for you to choose from which makes it very difficult to decipher the brief description of where the site actually is without it being marked on a site map. For instance to book a boat camping site at Tamboon Inlet T4 which gives you the description of southern part of the inlet western shore and the interactive map does not work for this site. Basic campsite maps are available for nearly every other site why can’t this be fixed?
If someone has set up camp on a site which I have booked the official response is - Phone 13 1963 and we'll move the other party on. This is only available during business hours and you have to use a phone (normally no public phones in national parks and usually no mobile reception). I would suggest that if you turned up at 6pm after travelling all day with the kids etc you would not be turning around and going through the official process, a normal person would select a site which is vacant nearby and set up camp there (somewhat illegally by the new system). OK I do accept that you can ask the people politely to move - I will leave that issue as it is likely to be very controversial.
Here is a question I submitted and a response received from Parks Vic If I get there and can't camp for whatever reason (fire, flood, rain etc) and move onto another site how would I book, would I get compensated? Check website or phone 13 1963 before travel for any Change of Conditions information. The same problem remains with regards to phoning or internet access, if the web site has not been updated where does one stand then. Also more importantly my question of “Would I get compensated?” was clearly not addressed.
How does the general public manage to have a say in this change of 'Victorian Parks camping and accommodation fees’ ? I would like to suggest some refinement in the system as it does have its merits and should be able to be used in conjunction with “some common sense with what a normal person would do”

My suggestions for other issues relating to the Victorian Parks camping and accommodation fees are as per the following:

I would like to see the Honesty box system put back in place. How this would work could be as simple as say if there are ten sites at a campground then two sites should be reserved for the Honesty Box System only on a first in first served basis. During periods of high demand i.e. Peak Christmas and Easter then the Honesty box system would not be available it would have to be booked via the phone or internet, or it still remains as the honesty box system with the maximum stay time of only one night.
If you cancel your booking during the peak periods you should be charged a small fee $10 if 30 days or more notice is given. If less than 30 days notice then 50% of the full fee should be charged if the site is not re-booked and there are no other available sites.
If you try to make a booking and all sites a full there should be a new part of the system put in to notify you of a cancellation (by email and or text) so you can have the chance to book the newly available site. This will help to reduce the loss of earnings to Parks Vic and the penalty costs passed onto to cancelling party.
If you cancel due to being unable to get to the campgrounds due to flood, fire, road damage etc you should be entitled to a full refund of you fees with no penalty as Parks Vic would have had to close the campground making it unavailable.
I am not sure what the payment method is but I do assume that you can pay by credit card or direct funds transfer when booking on line, for cancellations you should be able to process the cancellation and be credited the amount back into your account online. This should be able to be done in this day and age of electronic funds transfer.
If you do come upon a vacant camp site at a designated campground and you want to camp there for the night you should be able to do so and pay via the phone or online booking system.
This would have to have certain common sense approach rules applied that a normal person would apply.
You can only set up camp one hour before sunset.
You are prepared to move your camp if a person arrives and has booked the site.
You can only camp for one night and vacate it by 10:00am.
You may camp again a second night only if the above rule is observed.
This would not be available during peak periods.

Please consider my concerns and suggestions as I do believe them to be those of most users of Victorian National Parks.
If you need to contact me regarding any of the above please reply to this email.

Thank you

Martin Gwynne
Rokeby
Victoria.

[neilmny]

Marty I wrote to my local state politician and received a reply from one of his flunkies sayimg how wonderful the new system is and how it will benifit everyone. My response politely and firmly indicated otherwise and to which I have mysteriously received no reply at all. These Napthinians only understand one thing ...votes. To late as it may be to shut the gate after the horse has bolted but I geniunely hope that these clowns receive a complete and utter landslide flogging in November.

[MartyGwynne]

Oh dear that is sad to receive that sort of reply, but we must at least try.
Only 100 more days left till the votes are in so they may take an interest in the common folks concerns for a while now!
I tried to send my letter to the contact parks Vic bit on the web site but it exceeded the maximum amount of character allowed! I informed them they may wish to receive it and could email me for more info. But any way I managed to find some media peoples email addresses from Parks Vic so they do have a copy along with a lot of Pollies and other outdoor type of groups I also put it on Facebook! as my rant of the day (he he he).

[GBW]

After an email expressing my concerns about recent fee increases here is the response I got:

Dear Gerard,

Thank you for your email regarding the changes to camping and accommodation fees. We appreciate and acknowledge the time you have spent to forward through this email.

We appreciate that changes to fees are not always popular, but the changes are necessary for us to maintain Victoria’s campgrounds. New and revised prices for camping and accommodation now apply at 39 of the state’s parks. This is part of our effort to make sure Victorians continue to have access to these beautiful places and that the costs of providing safe, visitor-friendly facilities and services are sustainable and affordable.

The cost per site for up to six people at many basic campgrounds is $13.00 during peak periods, with a discount of 5% and 10% applied during shoulder and off peak periods respectively. In addition to these discounts, a further 10% off the seasonal rate is available for means tested concession card holders. Visit http://www.parks.vic.gov.au/stay to find out which campgrounds are most affordable in Victoria.

There are around 680 campgrounds and roofed accommodation in Victoria’s parks and reserves, costing significant public funds to maintain and operate each year.

The current funding model was insufficient and the standard of facilities and maintenance across these sites will suffer unless changes are made. Even a basic site with minimal or no facilities requires ongoing maintenance to ensure it is a safe environment for campers.

A user-pays system was considered the fairest way to cover the costs of the services and facilities provided at campgrounds. All revenue gathered through fees will go back into the park and maintenance of campsites and facilities, and securing their future for park visitors.

Should you require further advice on this matter please email [email protected]

Kind regards,

Alicia Ivory

State-wide Camping Project Officer | Parks Victoria

E [email protected]

[MartyGwynne]

GBW that reply is straight off the web site if you care to read it from the parks vic new fees from july 1 2014

I would thank them very much for their cut and paste response and suggest they take some more time to....
Oh dear I am getting tired and emotional and should go and have a little lie down for a while to relax my frustrations away.
Marty

[Snowzone]

Where are all the campgrounds at the $13 rate. The majority of camps I use are listed as $34 per night which for just myself is highway robbery!!!
And they are basic with no more than a pit toilet and maybe a water tank. What else do they call basic? I had already drafted a letter last week that will be forwarded to local newspapers as well as the pollies. I think its time we do have to start speaking up or nothing will change.

[Hallu]

This will also increase the number of backpackers and European tourists who will simply refuse to pay, or camp in the bush littering and flattening vegetation... 34 $ for a campground ? YMCAs often cost less... That's also the price of a night in a mountain refuge in France, including breakfast... I'm certain even park rangers think it's *&%$#! stupid and will make their job much harder... I didn't mind paying online and booking a site for a campground such as Mount Buffalo, which had hot showers and numbered sites. But paying more than 30$ and booking online for something as, let's say, Hattah Kulkyne campgrounds, is insane. If it were for better campgrounds, you would see them advertise the fact that, thanks to these fees, the campgrounds will be equiped with hot showers and individuals fireplaces in the following year or something. No such thing of course, they claim it's for maintenance of the current facilities... So for the past 20 years how have they been maintained ?

[MartyGwynne]

Snowzone the $13 camp sites are just a clear bit of ground. No toilet no water no fires and quite often no car access.
I just checked on the cann river camp ground (caravan park) and they charge $13 for an unpowered site - and yes you can have a hot shower with mobile phone reception etc etc etc.
For $26:50 you get a powered site.
Oh and these are the peak prices.......
Mallacoota foreshore water front fees are $48:50 (powered site) down to the basic non powered site off peak non waterfront at $15:30.

I think I may have to purchase a property near a NP and offer cheaper camping with extra services.....

[ErichFromm]

I can't stop being upset about this.

Is there something collective we can do - a petition, something? I know Bushwalk Vic did a submission, but surely there is something else?

[Moondog55]

I can't stop being upset about this.

Is there something collective we can do - a petition, something? I know Bushwalk Vic did a submission, but surely there is something else?

Yes Ignore the whole system and simply refuse to book or pay.

[ErichFromm]

I'd love to have a sticker I could put on my car along the lines of:

"Dear Park Ranger, while I admire what you do and respect your role please note I have not and will not be paying fees for this site. Such level of fees requested by the VIC government in not reasonable and I therefore refuse to abide by them. I am happy to make a donation to your favourite charity in place of said fees if you'd care to advise me.

Your sincerely, a hiker who cares for the the Australian wilderness as much as you do".

[Lophophaps]

A few minutes ago I sent the following to PV:
Parks Victoria has recently introduced a campsite booking system. This needs to be urgently reviewed as it is not practical in many places. If a party arrives at a designated campsite and their campsite is taken by another party, what redress is available? The Parks Victoria advice to call them is preposterous, as some areas lack mobile phone coverage and Parks Victoria cannot do anything in time or at all. Is Parks Victoria going to send a ranger to a remote campsite three hours walk from the road? It seems to me that remedies are quite possible under Australian Consumer Law, including but not limited to consequential damage. Other areas of consumer law can also be applied. Also, the fees are far too high when compared to nearby bush camping and caravan parks.

[MartyGwynne]

Moondog you're being naughty I will not condone such civil disobedience
But then again I could play the dirty bikie type and camp in someone's spot then we could see how long it takes PV to front up and sort out the situation. With me just being camped on the wrong site etc.
I guess on a serious note I am not too fussed by the pricing of being able to camp in such wonderful places, it's more just the lack of flexibility we used to have and the extreme penalties for cancellations etc.
I do hope we can get this changed to a more usable system.
Marty (the dirty bikie)

[peregrinator]

I agree with all of the comments in recent posts and especially support Marty who has encouraged people to get involved. Like him and others, I started writing. No responses so far.

I think it is important to offer suggestions about how the system might be made more acceptable. As has been stated, the absurdly overpriced fees have to be challenged, but it can be argued that it is necessary to collect some payment. Therefore, in my correspondence I am taking the line expressed by Snowzone way back in Page 1 of this thread, who made this concise statement:

I'm happy to pay fees to use our NP's as long as the money raised is being put back into our parks in some way. But it's getting a bit pricey for those of us that solo camp if we are paying by the night. I would much rather see an overall pass like that used in Tassie where we can purchase something annually or a shorter time for visitors.

I agree, although "a bit pricey" might be an understatement! In practice, this means that the legislators should consider implementing an annual pass instead of daily fees. Of course if an annual pass is set at the high end, as are the daily fees, then we may not be much better off. But there are several other advantages in using a pass system. For example, when the need to use an available camp site is unanticipated and there's no opportunity to pre-book. It could also be much fairer for solo walkers and small groups.

Any thoughts on this or any other suggestions which might be put forward to get this appallingly ignorant current system changed?

[peregrinator]

A few minutes ago I sent the following to PV:
[snip] It seems to me that remedies are quite possible under Australian Consumer Law, including but not limited to consequential damage. Other areas of consumer law can also be applied. [snip]

I agree with your other points (and those you've made in earlier posts), but I'm sorry that I don't understand this one. Could you elaborate?

[north-north-west]

This is all probably part of a cunning plan by the Libs.
Make camping so expensive and inconvenient that people stop going to the parks. Then they can flog them off to the highest bidder, and hardly anyone will complain.

[Lophophaps]

A few minutes ago I sent the following to PV:
[snip] It seems to me that remedies are quite possible under Australian Consumer Law, including but not limited to consequential damage. Other areas of consumer law can also be applied. [snip]

I agree with your other points (and those you've made in earlier posts), but I'm sorry that I don't understand this one. Could you elaborate?

ACL is a an Australia-wide set of laws relating to consumer matters. See
http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/t ... r_2010.pdf

When a consumer buys goods or services from a trader then a contract at law exists. You pay $578 for a tent from Paddy Pallin and expect the tent to have all the ingredients and to work for an acceptable time. If something is missing or if the item does not work for as long as a reasonable person would expect, or as laid down in law, implicitly or explicitly, then remedies exist.

A remedy is legal-babble for a solution, and may be determined between the consumer and the trader, by a suitable bodies such as the Financial Ombudsman Service, or in a court of law.

In the matter under consideration the trader - sort of, not quite right but this is the word that is used for these sort of consumer deliberations - is Parks Victoria. The consumer is a person or party that has paid to stay at a specific camp site on a specific night or nights. It is up to the trader to ensure that the camp site is available and as contracted, for a contract al law exists.

Failing to ensure that the camp site is available is a breach of ACL. Further, if the camp site is not available and the consumer suffers loss due to reasonably foreseeable consequences – especially those communicated to the trader – then the trader must make good this consequential loss. In my view if there is another similar vacant camp site then the consumer should take this camp site, and no loss has probably occurred. However, it is hard to determine if that second camp site has been booked.

See ACL page 18 for s 54 relating to goods and page 19 for ss 61 and 62 relating to services. See
http://www.accc.gov.au/business/treatin ... s-amp-loss
at the heading “Compensation for damages & loss.

The writer has over 30 years experience in legal matters, and most recently consumer matters. One complaint has led to a lawyer being cautioned due to unsatisfactory professional conduct and another professional in this matter was sentenced today. I cannot give details as the matter is under wraps. "Under wraps" is not a legal term.

[neilmny]

This is all probably part of a cunning plan by the Libs.
Make camping so expensive and inconvenient that people stop going to the parks. Then they can flog them off to the highest bidder, and hardly anyone will complain.

Interesting I was smelling the same thing NNW

[icefest]

The writer has over 30 years experience in legal matters, and most recently consumer matters. One complaint has led to a lawyer being cautioned due to unsatisfactory professional conduct and another professional in this matter was sentenced today. I cannot give details as the matter is under wraps. "Under wraps" is not a legal term.

Huh, I'm confused.
A complaint about parks vic has led to a lawyer being sentenced for unprofessional conduct?

[Lophophaps]

The writer has over 30 years experience in legal matters, and most recently consumer matters. One complaint has led to a lawyer being cautioned due to unsatisfactory professional conduct and another professional in this matter was sentenced today. I cannot give details as the matter is under wraps. "Under wraps" is not a legal term.

Huh, I'm confused.
A complaint about parks vic has led to a lawyer being sentenced for unprofessional conduct?

I'm confused as well, quite normal. There are three issues, two related. PV is one. The other issues involved the lawyer and the related professional. I went after the lawyer first, in 2010, and she was cautioned under the Legal Profession Act (the Act). Briefly, she was party to an arrangement with the "other professional" - not a lawyer. This is in breach of the Act. I then went after this professional. The matter was heard over several days three months ago, and a longish decision was handed down two weeks ago, over 600 paragraphs. The professional was suspended late last year, cannot practise. It relates to fraud.

The court said that "has engaged in professional misconduct and unprofessional conduct. Of the 25 allegations made against (the professional) ... (the court) found 19 allegations to be proven." I was wrong: a directions hearing was held today. He will be sentenced later. The lawyer and professional were caught because people like me spoke up. Individually our evidence and testimony meant little, but together it packed a huge wallop.

Hope this clears up the matter.