Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

[ErichFromm]

And this is related to park fees how?

[Earwig]

And this is related to park fees how?

I think it relates to the booking meaning that PV have entered a contract to supply you with a service (somewhere to camp) and if they don't you can take them to court or demand your money back or something like that.

[iGBH]

Guys, just remember that PV is a statutory agent for the government at the time. Parks Victoria is doing as instructed and (largely) devised by the government. I suggest if you want anything changed, dont waste your time hassling PV, go to your local member, paper or write a letter to Ryan Smith. At least this way your concerns will be heard by the people responsible for the change not just the agency responsible for implementing it.

[Lophophaps]

Guys, just remember that PV is a statutory agent for the government at the time. Parks Victoria is doing as instructed and (largely) devised by the government. I suggest if you want anything changed, dont waste your time hassling PV, go to your local member, paper or write a letter to Ryan Smith. At least this way your concerns will be heard by the people responsible for the change not just the agency responsible for implementing it.

Strongly agree. I was only pointing out that remedies at law exist and the utter stupidity of the new rules. These rules simply do comply with consumer laws. I write to the most senior public servant and the Minister. There is nothing at law preventing the minister ignoring representations, but a public servant is required to reply, even if the reply does not answer the question.

Regardless, a drip of letters over a protracted period can change things. Many years ago there was a government decision, cast in stone, fixed, would never be changed. It took just 76 letters to change the policy.

About 15-20 years ago there was a proposal to make Mt Stirling a downhill resort. Much opposition! There was an enquiry and some 600 submissions. Predictably, there were many pro formas, with a lot written on Saturdays, people in Buller lodges. Apart from the expert submissions - VNPA, ACF, scientists - the one that grabbed me most was from a girl about 12 years-of-age speaking from her heart, handwritten. Big impact.

Forget pro forma - they are bundled as just one submission. Forget petitions - nothing new, no effort, just write your name. But individual submissions showing that someone cares enough to take the time to craft a response that addresses the issues that are important to that person will be noted by those assessing the submissions. Also, argue economics as well as conservation. I did this last week with the Victorian greater alpine area enquiry, showing how Victorians are missing out on income and are paying more. No government likes to be seen as poor economic managers.

Finally, the best way to get rid of a stupid law is to enforce it. Show that the law is stupid, take up the time of the Minister and subordinates for no advantage. I've been involved in this quite a few times. It works.

[neilmny]

The fees are far reaching. We kayaked out to Mountaineer Inlet yesterday and there is now the "Have you booked a site" sign there as well.
Anyone who has walked there will know that the provisions are minimal and the long drop dunnies probably see a service once a year if that.
The camping used to be free and first come first served. So just what are we supposed to be paying for here?
I just can't wait for the ranger to rush out a la swat team to take care of and move on someone who hasn't booked a site.

The booking sign is standing in the shadow at the right of the photo.

Pay up sign Mountaineer Inlet.

Mountaineer.jpg (197.24 KiB) Viewed 29124 times

PS. Just checked it and it's $11.60 per night to camp there. There didn't even seem to be defined sites
there. What the hell are you paying for?
http://www.parkstay.vic.gov.au/lake-eil ... ccom/68263

Last edited by neilmny on Mon 01 Sep, 2014 7:33 am, edited 4 times in total.

[Moondog55]

Perhaps an even better solution would be to agree to pay the fees and then insist that the facilities provided were commensurate with the charge. Insisting on flush toilets and the provision of hot showers, electric BBQs, day shelters with tables, 240V power and wide screen TVs. I mean these are what any caravan park / camping ground has to provide these days to make sure of attracting trade. not to mention the heated swimming pools and kids jumping castles/ jungle gyms etc.
I always thought the $8- a day for the sites in the Brisbane Ranges were out of line considering the total lack of facilities except for a single long-drop and no water at all

[walkerchris77]

Those booking signs often end up as fire wood.

[PTC]

Most of my time out in the Victorian bush is hiking. So i hope i wont have to deal with any of the new changes.

I have just come back from a month in the NT 4wd'ing around. And camping up there is amazing. $3.30 per person per night at most sites and that covers clean toilets, either drop or flushing. Most with solar panels to operate a fan and 12 volt lighting at night. Also most of the sites had free gas BBQ's and burners. They were on a gas bottles trucked into the site.

The $6.60 per person per night sites that we went too were the same quality just more popular places with some of them having solar hot water showers as well as all the extras.

If Victoria wants to keep up with the other states they need to do something about their campsites. The cost is absurd for what we are being given. And i know it is to help clean them up after some people trash the site. Though if they were nicer to begin with i don't think people would have a problem paying for it. Now days it looks cheaper and better to go to a caravan park.

[cam_mcd]

With debate raging for nearly 12 months, in practice what have others done - pay the outrageous fees or taken the chance and not paid? If so, what was the outcome? Looking at taking the kids camping at Aire river in the next couple of months but can't justify the cost when we can go to Cumberland River Holiday Park for not much more in cost!

[surly 17]

Couldn't agree more Cam just come back from Cape Liptrap we often used to camp at bear gully for free now $34 a night we camped in the caravan park for $7 more showers clean toilets great nature walk for the kids what's the point of staying in the national park campground.

[Moondog55]

My paranoia is detecting a hidden agenda here

[Out_Walking]

Couldn't agree more Cam just come back from Cape Liptrap we often used to camp at bear gully for free now $34 a night we camped in the caravan park for $7 more showers clean toilets great nature walk for the kids what's the point of staying in the national park campground.

This is exactly what I don't get. I was looking to spend a couple of days at the Grampians. The Buandik campsite is $34, but instead I can stay at an unpowered site in a caravan park up there for $26. I can stroll to the gents, have a shower and buy a Cornetto at the park shop. Why would I bother paying PV the $34? The whole thing is insanely screwy and all it's going to do is fine-tune my stealth camping skills, as for every one else I guess?

[neilmny]

My paranoia is detecting a hidden agenda here

That's two of us Moondog.

Looks simple...over price the product.......nobody wants the product.....dispose of the product
by other means. The poor buggers who work for Parks probably think all this new pricing
will make life wonderful not potentially shut them down.

November is not far away.

[Snowzone]

With debate raging for nearly 12 months, in practice what have others done - pay the outrageous fees or taken the chance and not paid? If so, what was the outcome? Looking at taking the kids camping at Aire river in the next couple of months but can't justify the cost when we can go to Cumberland River Holiday Park for not much more in cost!

The debate may have raged for this time but the fees only came into effect from July 1st so are still news to a lot of people.
So far,I attempted to pay the fees for The Little Desert as the walker camps were a bit more reasonable in cost although I had trouble booking one camp and went without paying. I also did this walk as a club walk and felt booking was the right thing to do, if I had of been going on my own I wouldn't of booked at all.
Otherwise I have just avoided camping in the fee paying areas and found other alternatives.

[Lophophaps]

It would be good if everyone wrote a letter. Even an unanswered letter will have impact if the drip, drip, drip of letters continues over time. Also, every time people visit a NP and stay at a caravan park, if possible tell the local PV staff in person. If you decide not to go to a region due to outrageous fees, write to the local paper. Let the locals know that they are losing regional income due to PV charging too much. Cite the NT and other figures. Say that you want to stay in a remote bush camp with very basic facilities and are prepared to pay a fair price. Then say that their area does not satisfy this, and you went elsewhere. You could say that you are telling anyone that asks that their area is no longer attractive, and that websites say the same thing . Don't say which website - make the target hard to assess.

Any takers?

[Snowzone]

My paranoia is detecting a hidden agenda here

That's two of us Moondog.

Looks simple...over price the product.......nobody wants the product.....dispose of the product
by other means. The poor buggers who work for Parks probably think all this new pricing
will make life wonderful not potentially shut them down.

November is not far away.

Your exactly right, nearly every parks campground I've been near lately has been empty and the few people I did see at Kiata campground I suspect had not gone near the internet or phone to pre-book.

[neilmny]

Bushwalking Victoria will be making a detailed submission in response to this proposal. Anyone is able to make their own submission direct to DEPI or alternatively can make their views known to BWV or by posting on this forum. While it is still early in the process I (I am BWV vice-president) can pretty safely say that we will be arguing strongly that where no facilities (the minimum being a toilet) are provided there should be no charge. We agree that there is currently a deal of inconsistency of charges and their application and this should be addressed.

We would also want to see not just an assurance, but legislation that ensures that camping fees collected are used by Parks Vic & DEPI for providing and maintaining camp facilities and not just tipped into general revenue. We would also NOT want to see funding to Parks Vic reduced even further by the amount of revenue from camping fees.

The whole thing is a complete farce in terms of the prices and booking system, refundability, guarantee of a camp site once its' booked, the concept of moving on (in office hours if phone service is available that is) of people taking sites without booking.

Just wondering how much credence was paid to your submisions Chris and if there was any feedback from Parks/Vic gov. to your submissions as well.

[jjoz58]

I haven't really read this until now and wanted to know if any changes that have come into effect, affect walkers doing the AAWT? I wouldn't expect it as we do remote camping but thought I would ask as I plan to be there in Nov.

[Hallu]

Just out of curiosity, are the rangers putting "booked" cardboard signs on the booked sites ? Because if they don't I can see some pretty ugly fights coming... One person was mentionning Little Desert, well the Horseshoe Bend campground is kind of full of bogans, I wouldn't want to try and dislodge one who'd taken my booked spot... Btw they're 34 $ now there, while they used to be 14.5 $... Looks like that in the Mallee, the last free spot is the Pink Lakes. I hope it stays that way... and this campground has the exact same facilities as most 34 $ sites : picnic tables, non-flush toilets, fire pits. It's even got a water tank, usually dry in summer though.

Last edited by Hallu on Mon 01 Sep, 2014 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Earwig]

I haven't really read this until now and wanted to know if any changes that have come into effect, affect walkers doing the AAWT? I wouldn't expect it as we do remote camping but thought I would ask as I plan to be there in Nov.

It varies. Only campsite in Alpine NP that has a fee (at the moment) is the one associated with the Falls to Hotham walk camping platform. Not sure about the Baw Baw section but I think there are fees there.

[neilmny]

Here's the link to the Parks page http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/visit/book-yo ... ation-fees
and to the fee schedule http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets ... hedule.pdf

Interesting note amongst the various blurb -
"The intention is to recover costs, so camping opportunities and enjoyable visitor experiences can continue to be provided in Victoria’s parks and reserves."

and another -
"The new fees provide a fairer system for camping in Victoria’s parks and reserves. The system provides affordable, convenient and certain site bookings and ensures safe, visitor friendly-services and facilities."

"fairer" to whom or is it who?????? (easy on me grammar police )
"affordable" is questionable depending on personal circumstances. The new fees have most likely cut off a lot of people from affordable camping.
"certain site bookings"...............they are dreaming
"safe services".....what services?.......are these people living on another planet?

[Lophophaps]

Interesting note amongst the various blurb -
"The intention is to recover costs, so camping opportunities and enjoyable visitor experiences can continue to be provided in Victoria’s parks and reserves."

and another -
"The new fees provide a fairer system for camping in Victoria’s parks and reserves. The system provides affordable, convenient and certain site bookings and ensures safe, visitor friendly-services and facilities."

Neil, agree. The remedy is wherever possible to camp nearby where there is no fee. My last few trips to NSW, Victorian and Tassie NPs were mostly away from focal points such as huts. Except for Tassie (a park pass was $30 for six weeks I think), Wilsons Prom and Mt Buffalo I have never paid for camping in NPs. Tassie could arguably be called a park fee and not a camping fee; I'm very happy to pay this sort of cost. But upwards of $30 for a night for minimal facilities. LOL

[neilmny]

Interesting note amongst the various blurb -
"The intention is to recover costs, so camping opportunities and enjoyable visitor experiences can continue to be provided in Victoria’s parks and reserves."

and another -
"The new fees provide a fairer system for camping in Victoria’s parks and reserves. The system provides affordable, convenient and certain site bookings and ensures safe, visitor friendly-services and facilities."

Neil, agree. The remedy is wherever possible to camp nearby where there is no fee. My last few trips to NSW, Victorian and Tassie NPs were mostly away from focal points such as huts. Except for Tassie (a park pass was $30 for six weeks I think), Wilsons Prom and Mt Buffalo I have never paid for camping in NPs. Tassie could arguably be called a park fee and not a camping fee; I'm very happy to pay this sort of cost. But upwards of $30 for a night for minimal facilities. LOL

Yes I have no qualms with an annual Parks access fee and would be prepared to pay somewhat more than $30.00. It works in NSW.
For what you got and the service provided the old fees where fair and reasonable, now I fear for a lot more you'll get the same thing but with the same level of service (almost none).

[walkerchris77]

In Victoria we already pay a parks and garden fee on our rates. Seriously WT *$&# is that for. Sick of decent every day people being ripped off and treated like poop. When I camp I leave the place they way it was found. I take my rubbish, fill in any fire hole I made. They wouldn't know ive even been.
Im not the one leaving rubbish etc
I see people parking in disabled parking the council never seem to be there booking them. Lets go after an easier target like someone enjoying nature.

no happy jan.


Whats next charging us per step.

[Hallu]

Interesting note amongst the various blurb -
"The intention is to recover costs, so camping opportunities and enjoyable visitor experiences can continue to be provided in Victoria’s parks and reserves."

and another -
"The new fees provide a fairer system for camping in Victoria’s parks and reserves. The system provides affordable, convenient and certain site bookings and ensures safe, visitor friendly-services and facilities."

lol I love the way they call for urgency : "can continue to be provided". We've had camping in our parks for decades now, and suddenly these campgrounds, which hardly need any money to be maintained for most of them, would be shut down ? Also, how is it "fairer" to have a freaking 143 % fee increase that will for sure means less people camping there (for campgrounds that are already mostly empty outside peak periods) ? Affordable ? No, it's the same price as a private campground with power, showers, and cooking facilities. Convenient ? No, you have to book online ONLY and can't just drive in and camp there as you wish, AND this also means you can't just have a look at the weather and go there or not. Now once it's paid it's paid, and you go there, rain or no rain Safe ? No, online booking only means you will have disputes between car campers who didn't book online or couldn't. Also, having to pay before-hand with no refund policy means you will be a lot more likely to go even in bad weather : that means a greater number of accidents that would be easily avoided if Parks VIC weren't so stupid. Visitor-friendly ? See convenient...

To me it's a *&%$#! disaster. And I have to mention that NONE of my friends still living in Australia heard of this before I told them, and they're all outraged. A lot of them just go to a park, explore it, and camp wherever they end up at the end of the day.

[vicrev]

Hi all......There is a lot more at stake here than park fees. Big business is making a grab for our parks in an under handed way. put the fees up ,& those slimeballs will turn around & say "nobodys using the parks ,let's sell them off !"( case in point , been down to Fox beach at Portsea lately?)......The best way is to complain to your State or/and federal Member of Parliament,in the form of a letter(not email),he or she, will usually respond.There is a formula,I'm not sure about the numbers,it runs something like this, a telephone call complaint is equal to 500 unhappy people, a handwritten letter 2000 unhappy people..I have always had a response (not always to my liking !) ......keep smiling ....Vicrev

[cam_mcd]

What are the consequences/penalties if you don't pay? Do PV have the power to fine you or physically remove you from the site? If you don't provide ID, would love to see them chewing up police resources to enforce the regulations. Does anyone from PV actually support the new fees? Without their support the system is bound to fail.

[Hallu]

Another stupid problem I just noticed : they ask you for your car's Reg number. What do you do if you rent one and don't know it yet ? You have to enter "no vehicle" and then what ? Does the ranger fine you for eventually turning up with a vehicle ? This has really NOT been thought through...

[Lophophaps]

Another stupid problem I just noticed : they ask you for your car's Reg number. What do you do if you rent one and don't know it yet ? You have to enter "no vehicle" and then what ? Does the ranger fine you for eventually turning up with a vehicle ? This has really NOT been thought through...

LOL! Brilliant observation. And what of people that arrive by bus with the car parked elsewhere? A few years ago I used a taxi to get to the start of a walk. Other trips saw me getting lifts with people and I did not know the rego until the trip. What this stupid set of rules should have had is a RIS, Regulatory Impact Statement, which assesses the good and bad points, usually with public input. Based on the RIS the legislation or regulation is or should be changed.

[north-north-west]

... if Parks VIC weren't so stupid...

Please do not blame PV for this - it's a political decision, just like the OT fees and booking system, and PV have no say in the matter other than to try to implement it as best they can. If you want to slag someone off, heap all the abuse on the politicians.