Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

[north-north-west]

The realignment of this walk as proposed will take it up Diamantina spur to accommodation at High Knob.

And this is another really dumb thing about it. I've snow camped up on High Knob. It's a beautiful, isolated spot with some magnificent views - but it isn't a practical place for a hut and all the necessary associated infrastructure. It's too exposed to be a practical tourist campsite or hut site.

[Lophophaps]

"Rise and shine on a crisp High Plains morning..."
I look forward to them explaining how they can guarantee the weather will co-operate.

There are possibly consumer issues here. If the advertising says "Rise and shine on a crisp High Plains morning..." and it's anything but, the legal remedy is to obtain a refund.

In reading that page I did not see anything that suggested the walks run by Evolve would climb Diamantina Spur now or in the future. I also haven't seen anything that says the icon proposal is a realignment of the recently upgraded Falls - Hotham Crossing but I have not read the proposal documents other than what is on this thread.

The Parks Victoria proposed Falls to Hotham walk goes down past Westons and Blairs, with a new track hitting Diamantina Spur at about 1330 metre, about 340 metres up and 1 kilometre from the start of the current Diamantina climb. Confusingly, the Falls-Hotham proposal has Diamantina Horse Yards at about 1100 metres a little south of Diamantina Spur where the new alignment hits DS. So the Evolve walk could not camp there: it's out of their way, the track does not exist, and the Diamantina Horse Yards as proposed do not exist.

So Evolve must be camping near Blairs, what they call the Diamantina Horse Yards. As these yards seeme to me elusive, maybe they are yet to be established. one key could be that there is vehicular access up the West Kiewa, although they would need to be able to unlock the gate abouy a kilometre north of Blairs. Mmm, there's a flat area north of the gate that could be the Evolve Diamantina Horse Yards, but this is another kilometre and 100 metres of climbing and backtracking on ther last day. Not much appeal. It's 500 metres up from Dibbins to the Loch Car Park, and the last hour is exposed.

The Hotham-Falls walk - the one established in the last year or so - goes Hotham-DibbinsCope-falls. The proposed Falls-Hotham walk is Falls-Tawonga Huts-Blairs Huts-new alignment to Horseyards and Diamantina Spur then Federation Hut-Hotham

It's a pity NSW bagged all the high peaks.

The climb to the summit of Kosciuszko is far less than Bungalow Spur, Staircase or T Spur. Walhalla to Mt Erica seems to be the biggest climb on the AAWT. Not as many people climb Kosciuszko compared to Bogong. Victoria wins.

[north-north-west]

The climb to the summit of Kosciuszko is far less than Bungalow Spur, Staircase or T Spur.

Not if you go up via Hannels Spur.

[Mark F]

Not as many people climb Kosciuszko compared to Bogong.

"Easter is the peak period for visiting Mt Kosciuszko with reported visitor numbers exceeding 2,500 people per day on both Easter Saturday and Easter
Sunday" (Johnston & Growcock, 2005).

Only if nobody visits for the rest of the year.

I am sure you would be delighted if Bogong achieved this level of visitation.

[Lophophaps]

The climb to the summit of Kosciuszko is far less than Bungalow Spur, Staircase or T Spur.

Not if you go up via Hannels Spur.

My reference was to the climb up Koscy from the top of the chairlift, the easy way. Of course some people approach it from Walhalla, which is not the easy way. I'd make it up Hannels, but my knees wouldn't.

Not as many people climb Kosciuszko compared to Bogong.

"Easter is the peak period for visiting Mt Kosciuszko with reported visitor numbers exceeding 2,500 people per day on both Easter Saturday and Easter Sunday" (Johnston & Growcock, 2005).

Only if nobody visits for the rest of the year.

I am sure you would be delighted if Bogong achieved this level of visitation.

Heavens, 2500 a day. Merde. Next visit I'll aim to clear the summit by 9 am and miss the masses. I wonder if there are plans for traffic lights at intersections and tolls on the summit walk ... Jagungal is better, Gungartan, Dicky Cooper, many others. Mid-winter the Main Range numbers drop slightly, bit like my skiing.

[north-north-west]

The climb to the summit of Kosciuszko is far less than Bungalow Spur, Staircase or T Spur.

Not if you go up via Hannels Spur.

My reference was to the climb up Koscy from the top of the chairlift, the easy way.

That is a walk, not a climb. Ditto with doing it from Charlottes.

[Lophophaps]

Does anyone know how much it costs to make a walking track in a semi-remote region like near Tawonga Huts and Blairs-Diamantina?

From the plan.
"The Falls to Hotham Crossing will provide demonstrable economic benefits to the local community, the region and the State. It will support a wide range of investment opportunities for tourism, complementary services and infrastructure that provide an holistic and integrated walking experience."

What economic or benefits? The economic analysis will be in mid-2016.

The Plan says
"The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing is recognised by the Victorian government as one of four long-distance walks being developed under the Walk Victoria Icons brand which will position Victoria and the Australian Alps as a key nature-based destination"
Right, Falls to Hotham, long-distance. Faster walkers will do this in a weekend. It's about 17 kilometres Falls to Blairs, and slightly more on day two, Feathertop and Razorback to Hotham. Best done as a three day trip perhaps.

It scares me that people not equipped with adequate fitness, stamina and experience may be enticed into potentially dangerous areas with the only recourse a PLB.

The trip is not even Falls to Hotham: it starts near Wallaces Hut Note where Hotham Heights is on the map - west of Loch car park. Oops. if they can't put a major ski resort in the right place on a map, how can they possibly manage a new development?

Falls to Hotham map

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Hi Lop.
Ahh ..... a downloadable faulty map!. I can use that as evidence that these rock apes have no idea at all . I can put it in my third round of reg. post snail mail protest letters. Thanks. I am using some of your words and now a map.This is war and I am on the frontlines!

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Cashed up Bogans with no idea who have signed up for a happy clappy soft boy thingy club med. cum lego land hiking trip would not have a PLB. I just bought one and I am a bit of a hiking and trekking nerd both at home and abroad.

[andrewp]

The Parks Victoria proposed Falls to Hotham walk goes down past Westons and Blairs, with a new track hitting Diamantina Spur at about 1330 metre, about 340 metres up and 1 kilometre from the start of the current Diamantina climb. Confusingly, the Falls-Hotham proposal has Diamantina Horse Yards at about 1100 metres a little south of Diamantina Spur where the new alignment hits DS. So the Evolve walk could not camp there: it's out of their way, the track does not exist, and the Diamantina Horse Yards as proposed do not exist.

On VicMaps the alignment of the Diamantina Spur is incorrectly marked. It is correctly marked on OSM. See below. The red dotted line is the correct alignment. The magenta solid line is how it is marked on VicMaps. Diamantina Horse Yards do exist and are roughly where shown on the parks proposal map.

Selection_001x.jpg (89.07 KiB) Viewed 36511 times

[Lophophaps]

On VicMaps the alignment of the Diamantina Spur is incorrectly marked. It is correctly marked on OSM. See below. The red dotted line is the correct alignment. The magenta solid line is how it is marked on VicMaps. Diamantina Horse Yards do exist and are roughly where shown on the parks proposal map.

That's interesting. I recall coming from Blairs crossing the bigger creek (new bridge) and then a dry gully and then climbing steeply left as shown in the dotted line. My most recent map, 1991, has the track in the right place, starting after the dry gully. This map has no horse yards. The PV concept plan map is wrong in a number of places, so it's no surprise that the horseyards are maybe 500 metres west of the position on the OSM. Also, why have PV got a new track to the yards? Odd.

I just noticed something. The PV document I've been working from is called "Master plan, preliminary concept for consultation". The dates on this are:

From Master plan, preliminary concept for consultation

So it seems that matters are running several months nehind schedule, which is fine with me. I'd be happier with years or decades. But note that the economic analysis will not be done until mid-2016. This is financial madness. As PV cannot supply figures I have some, very tentative but indicative. To make the proposal viable, walkers will have to pay $1500-2000 each. As the OLT is about $3-3500, staying in luxury huts, chefs, all mod cons, better experience, I can't see that the proposal is viable. I'm waiting on more data, but for now these are the best (and only) figures I have. It really would assist if PV had some more detail.

[sim1oz]

@ Lophophaps. Those price estimates are starting to make the Three Capes Trail look cheap
It's only going to be financially feasible if government and the private sector put up some pretty big bucks, but the private investors will want a ROI, so....

[Mark F]

"The Falls to Hotham Crossing will provide demonstrable economic benefits to the local community, the region and the State. It will support a wide range of investment opportunities for tourism, complementary services and infrastructure that provide an holistic and integrated walking experience."

What a wonderful sentence - absolute marketing fluff - the consultant that wrote it must have it framed on their wall. Most probably earned them a few thousand.
Obviously they cannot "provide demonstrable economic benefits" as they haven't done the economic feasibility.
If the local community benefits then it is reasonable that the region and State may also benefit - self fulfilling drivel.
"Wide range of investment opportunities" - they don't know what they are but it must involve lots of public money. Who will invest in what? Public funds will build any tracks, a private business who receives an exclusive licence may build the huts. As for the rest - NO investment. A local bus company may get a few more km on their existing fleet. Plenty of existing businesses have spare capacity for accommodation and meals during the operating season. A few jobs but many of those won't go to locals - more to uni students etc.
"An holistic and integrated walking experience" - well isn't every walk you do holistic. It starts at the start and concludes when you get back - and integrated with what?

PS paidal - I hope you are not using the language you are using in your posts in your submissions to government. You will be accorded "nutter" status and your hard work will be binned without further scrutiny.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

The letters that I have sent I have also posted here. This is proof that I can engage in different levels of communication that are apposite for different applications . I am able to string a few words together without allowing my usually misanthropic withering epithets to come out in a reflex gesture of contempt for these life forms . When the revolution comes it will not be televised and these vandals and rock apes who see dollars signs and not natural beauty will the first up against the wall.

[peregrinator]

"snip . . ."An holistic and integrated walking experience" - well isn't every walk you do holistic. It starts at the start and concludes when you get back - and integrated with what?

With dollars.

I do like your parsing of that sentence.

[Lophophaps]

@ Lophophaps. Those price estimates are starting to make the Three Capes Trail look cheap
It's only going to be financially feasible if government and the private sector put up some pretty big bucks, but the private investors will want a ROI, so....

For those that don't know ROI is return on investment. Right now that's looking very shaky, but the government does not know yet. You read it here first! For investment types, note that I've included depreciation, tax and other costs of doing business. I do this sort of thing most days. No, not run a stupid proposal at a loss, financial analysis. It's been a good year - I've lost less than last year. Bulk bookings at Three Capes, anyone?

[JulianS]

As a person who was involved in the establishment of the Cradle Huts walk I have mixed feelings about the proposal but understand the pro and anti arguments pretty well.

I've often wondered what the overall sentiment about Cradle Huts was amongst the bushwalking community when it was initially proposed. Are there parallels with what's been said on this topic?

[Lophophaps]

I've often wondered what the overall sentiment about Cradle Huts was amongst the bushwalking community when it was initially proposed. Are there parallels with what's been said on this topic?

It appears not. Cradle Huts use the OLT and that's the only common point with the self-supporting OLT walkers. Cradle Huts have their own huts, fairly unobtrusive.

For the Falls-Hotham trip the commercial groups will be using public infrastructure such as camping platforms and huts. If there are too many commercial groups on Falls-Hotham, all walkers will have a diminished experience.

The commercial groups seem to be intending to use Diamantina Horseyards as a vehicular-based camp. If so, it may be that they expect vehicular access to Tawonga Huts. The road from Pretty Valley is okay, but I'm not comfortable with vehicles for this reason. I understand that the Pretty Valley barrier is to stop all non-management vehicles. Is this correct? I wonder if there's to be resupply by helicopter. Allowing commercial vehicles and aircraft is a terrible precedent.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

"Allowing commercial vehicles and aircraft is a terrible precedent."
Expect the worst and hope for the best.

[highercountry]

When the revolution comes it will not be televised...

I won't tell anybody who or where you pinched that line from.

[Xplora]

The commercial groups seem to be intending to use Diamantina Horseyards as a vehicular-based camp. If so, it may be that they expect vehicular access to Tawonga Huts. The road from Pretty Valley is okay, but I'm not comfortable with vehicles for this reason. I understand that the Pretty Valley barrier is to stop all non-management vehicles. Is this correct? I wonder if there's to be resupply by helicopter. Allowing commercial vehicles and aircraft is a terrible precedent.

Barriers at Pretty Valley and along the Kiewa are permanent and only those approved can gain access. That does not mean a commercial interest cannot gain access. I know that Parks will provide access in emergencies but most commercial interest I know who are currently running in the ANP cannot get vehicle access to camps behind barriers. This includes all the outdoor ed camps and horse riding groups. I suppose when you pay enough money doors (or gates) will open.

[Xplora]

Has anyone confirmed who the 'private' partners are? It is only supposition at the moment that it is the resorts pushing this.

[Uncle Rumple]

Here is a suggestion:
Why doesn't one of you more erudite posters write an opinion piece on this topic and send it to Wild Magazine for the Opinion Page on their website - see http://wild.com.au/people/opinion/

Editor Campbell Phillips (wild@primecreative.com.au) is always looking for comments from people who have something to say and this issue fits right in.

All you are doing here is preaching to the converted. Make some real waves!

[Lophophaps]

Here is a suggestion:
Why doesn't one of you more erudite posters write an opinion piece on this topic and send it to Wild Magazine for the Opinion Page on their website - see http://wild.com.au/people/opinion/

Editor Campbell Phillips (wild@primecreative.com.au) is always looking for comments from people who have something to say and this issue fits right in.

All you are doing here is preaching to the converted. Make some real waves!

Good idea. At present I'm still collating information for a second submission, deadline 11 December. Once that's done a few other avenues will be explored, including perhaps Wild. However, ultimately the decision will rest with PV and perhaps the minister. If there are enough well-reasoned submissions and contacts that persuasively argue that the proposal does not stand up to scrutiny then there's a good chance of it failing. I'm also looking at the media with a theme that the proposal will bring Victoria into disrepute and - importantly for the bean counters - has dreadful economics. Adverse and ongoing drips of public contacts, media and perhaps internal enquiries (other lines I'm looking at very seriously) will give more pressure. This is why I say to make a submission. There's heaps of ideas and facts above. If anyone wants assistance please send me a PM. Not Abbott, he's an ex-PM, one of the best ex-PMs in our history.

[Lophophaps]

A longish post. The following submission is a work in progress, but it's fairly close to final. Submissions close on 11 December. Feel free to use my words, but please cast them in your own style.

***

Edited 4.40 pm on 3.12.15, third draft for today. The more I look the more flaws I see. It's getting big!

Edited 12.15 pm on 5.12.15. The current draft of my submission is even bigger, and has been posted today as a new post.

[Uncle Rumple]

This reads well!

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Hi
I got a reply from the office of the State minister for the environment today . It simply says we have received your e mail and we will get back to you about this.

[Solohike74]

The realignment of this walk as proposed will take it up Diamantina spur to accommodation at High Knob.

And this is another really dumb thing about it. I've snow camped up on High Knob. It's a beautiful, isolated spot with some magnificent views - but it isn't a practical place for a hut and all the necessary associated infrastructure. It's too exposed to be a practical tourist campsite or hut site.

East of high knob slightly descending down the track there are some good grassed areas dotted with snow gums that offer opportunities for wild camping. Some are in a saddle. Exposure ranges from low to medium.

[Lophophaps]

I just put in a new update of my submission. About two more revisions and it will be final. I cannot locate a reference to accommodation on High Knob. This seems to be an unlikely spot as it breaches the Visual landscape system. See
http://planningschemes.dpcd.vic.gov.au/ ... 2_SPPF.pdf
Apart from that it's nothing like the private OLT huts, set well away from the OLT. If anyone has a reference to the High Knob hut please post here asap and I'll write a few more words.

[north-north-west]

I'm wondering if they actually men Twin Knobs. Although that very dodgy map shows the third night being spent anywhere from by the Diamantina Spur track east of the top of High Knob to Federation Hut.