Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

[Xplora]

I just put in a new update of my submission. About two more revisions and it will be final. I cannot locate a reference to accommodation on High Knob. This seems to be an unlikely spot as it breaches the Visual landscape system. See
http://planningschemes.dpcd.vic.gov.au/ ... 2_SPPF.pdf
Apart from that it's nothing like the private OLT huts, set well away from the OLT. If anyone has a reference to the High Knob hut please post here asap and I'll write a few more words.

On the map you have posted above you will see an orange circle which indicates and accommodation precinct. Combine that with this page from Nth East Tourism http://www.tourismnortheast.com.au/alpine-crossing/ and you will find the third night is at High Knob.

Extract
The Preliminary Concept:
The preliminary concept outlines the preferred 40-kilometre route for the FHAC that will take over three and half days. The current proposal commences the walk north of Wallace Hut (seven kilometres drive from Falls Creek) travelling across the Bogong High Plains to Tawonga Huts for the first night. Day two starts from Tawonga Huts down Westons Spur to stay at either Blair Hut or the Diamantina Horse Yards overnight. Day three involves a hike up the Diamantina Spur to High Knob (night three) where walkers have the opportunity to walk to the summit of Mount Feathertop. The final day’s walk is via the Razorback finishing at Diamantina Hut near Mount Hotham.

[Lophophaps]

I'm wondering if they actually men Twin Knobs. Although that very dodgy map shows the third night being spent anywhere from by the Diamantina Spur track east of the top of High Knob to Federation Hut.

Thanks, I've now done what I should have done a week or more ago - closely checked all the information.

http://www.tourismnortheast.com.au/alpine-crossing/
says
Day 1 Wallaces to Tawonga Huts
Day 2 Tawonga Huts to either Blairs or Diamantina Horseyards
Day 3 "involves a hike up Diamantina Spur to High Knob (night three) where walkers have the opportunity to walk to the summit of Mt Feathertop."
Day four is "via the Razorback finishing at Diamantina Hut near Mt Hotham".

I can't believe that I missed this High Knob mention. It may be because the poster
http://www.tourismnortheast.com.au/wp-c ... educed.pdf
has conflicting and crazy information.

The map is combined with a gradient section, and it does not work. Cope to Tawonga is 177 metres. Wallaces to Tawonga is also 177 metres. No climbing or descent from Wallaces? The climbs and descents are not distinguishable if you don't know the area or how to read maps. Westons is shown as 1480 metres. I think it's closer to 1580 metres.

Night two is in two places, Blairs and Diamantina Horseyards. This fits with the above options. Interestingly, the Horseyards are above Blairs! No way. The section after the Diamantina Horseyards is labelled "Tawonga Huts to Diamantina Spur, 3 km 470 metres". LOL. Night three is a big one - Diamantina Spur at 1540 metres (way down the track) or Federation Hut

Day 4 on the poster finishes at Mt Hotham. The other information says "finishing at Diamantina Hut near Mt Hotham". This is crazy!

There's enough material for a number of new points in my submission. It just amounts to more evidence that the people managing this have no idea at all about the terrain, details or how to present information.

[north-north-west]

As far as I can work out from what maps I have, Cope is around 1700m and Wallaces around 1620m That's only an 80m climb which is very gradual. Still, it does make rubbish of the posted figures.
Correction: more rubbish.

[Lophophaps]

As far as I can work out from what maps I have, Cope is around 1700m and Wallaces around 1620m That's only an 80m climb which is very gradual. Still, it does make rubbish of the posted figures.
Correction: more rubbish.

More rubbish indeed. Your heights are about right. My maps are disintegrating at Wallaces and Cope Huts, and I don't need a map anyway. My map shows the Wallaces car park at about 1670, and the aquaduct below Wallaces at about 1600. So carpark-aquaduct-Cope Hut is down 70 metres and up 100 metres. From the car park to Tawonga Huts I get up 215 metres and down 210 metres. I'll allow +/- 15 metres on both, but I'm probably close. It does not matter as the walking is easy, the slopes are gradual, and the only vaguely steep bit is descending into Tawonga Huts.

This is not the day to be concerned about. Day three up Diamantina is the worry. If somebody on a commercial walk or enticed by this stupid plan dies or is evacuated due to inability to manage a steep often exposed 700 metre climb up Diamantina I'll be contacting the Coroner.

[Xplora]

I am unsure how they will get supplies to any accommodation built at High Knob. This could be it's ruin unless there are plans for a helipad or are going to pay people to backpack it in from the Great Alpine road.

[Xplora]

I can't believe that I missed this High Knob mention. It may be because the poster
http://www.tourismnortheast.com.au/wp-c ... educed.pdf
has conflicting and crazy information.

I had not seen this poster and maybe the accommodation provided at High Knob is of the type depicted which indicates removable glamping. The pic of these structures hardly suggests they are easily moved and the shower facilities indicated for High Knob will require substantial water tanks. Interesting enough too the dollar signs at each location which suggests that unless you pay there will be no camping available for you at all these sites. Even basic camping, which must mean a tent on the ground, attracts a fee. They have tied up every camp site with water in the area except for Dibbin's and Ryder's but they are not on the intended route (although listed as side tracks or alternates). If PV put up a sign that says 'no camping' it may not be able to be enforced. I am not entirely sure of the process but the area may need gazetting to make it enforceable. 'Camping prohibited' has an entirely different meaning which suggests you could face a fine. If this goes ahead my partner suggests a mass protest of civil disobedience and take up all their camping spots at once. To fine you they need a name. Refuse to give a name and you have to be arrested. PV will not do that. Also only an authorised officer is entitle to 'request' your name. They have to produce photo ID which states they are an authorised officer at your request. http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic ... s38aa.html I doubt many would carry it with them. I would also like to see them try and arrest 100 people for camping without paying.

While reading the Act I also found a reference to the definition of cattle. This needs to change before some sneaky cattle farmer decides to graze Brahmans which are Bos Indicus species. Only Bos taurus are banned. I know it is nothing to do with the subject but it is still the High Plains.

[Lophophaps]

I had not seen this poster and maybe the accommodation provided at High Knob is of the type depicted which indicates removable glamping. The pic of these structures hardly suggests they are easily moved and the shower facilities indicated for High Knob will require substantial water tanks.

I would also like to see them try and arrest 100 people for camping without paying.

While it appears that the pics are indicative only, there's some cause for concern. Diamantina Spur is not easy. Scenario. Overcast and brooding weather at Blairs. A few hours up Diamantina the weather bombs out like it did this week, snow at 1500 metres. Push on to the hut at Twin Knobs al la Gadsden tragedy where three died attempting to reach Summit Hut on Mt Bogong, or return to Blairs, descending a steep track with a rocky section, with potential for a serious splat?

If the water tanks are empty then the attractiveness of Twin Knobs diminishes. Many years ago the land manager (I think it was the Forest Commission of Victoria) put up quite big signs on many mountains. The one on Bogong had two horizontal boards maybe 150 mm deep with letters about 100 mm routed into the timber and painted. This was supported by two round posts, about 100mm diameter. Another mountain had a sign that read vertically, about 2500 mm high. Within a few years the signs had mysteriously vanished, never to be replaced. There was little or no coordinated action - the signs just went. These days, coordination and circulation of ideas is much easier.

I have not been following the ANP issue at all, and was shocked to find the Falls-Hotham walk in the draft management plan.
http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/explore/parks ... /resources
I can't find a final plan. Note that the draft plan refers to natural values and user safety. Oh, dear.

[Lophophaps]

Came in a few minutes ago.

Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing preliminary concept – Melbourne stakeholder briefing

The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing will be a world-class, long-distance walking experience, showcasing the beauty of the Alpine National Park’s natural and cultural landscape.

The project team would like to invite you to contribute your feedback through an open briefing session with the project and consultant team.

When: Friday 11 November 10.00am - 11.30pm
Where: Melbourne CBD. Exact location to be confirmed on Monday 07
RSVP: Midday, Thursday 10 November
Email: FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au

If you are unable to attend this briefing session but would still like to provide feedback, please email your comments to the project team at: FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au

The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing preliminary concept can be accessed via the following link:
http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/explore/parks ... aster-plan

*****

Note the words "The project team would like to invite you to contribute your feedback ". There was a suggestion before that the briefing was one way - PV to inform those present, with nothing going to PV. This is not so. Anyone attending should be moderate in their views and very factual. PV are on our side, and have had this ghastly plan foisted upon them.

[sambar358]

Just received an email with the dates for the recheduled briefing on the Falls to Hotham Concept Plan :

The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing will be a world-class, long-distance walking experience, showcasing the beauty of the Alpine National Park’s natural and cultural landscape. (My highlight....looks like a done-deal to me "will be" !) But wait....there's more :

The project team would like to invite you to contribute your feedback through an open briefing session with the project and consultant team.

When: Friday 11 November 10.00am - 11.30pm
Where: Melbourne CBD. Exact location to be confirmed on Monday 07
RSVP: Midday, Thursday 10 November
Email: FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au

Note the dates : November 10th for the RSVP and November 11th for the actual meeting........we didn't have a Thursday 10 & Friday 11 in November this year......they are in December !!! So it seems that they can't even get something simple like the dates for this so-called consultative meeting right......imagine the disaster that they'll make when they start on the actual project out in the mountains. I guess that we'll all get another apologetic email soon with the correct dates in December.....but not a good look really for a so-called professional outfit. Cheers

s358

[oyster_07]

I suspect those dates should be December rather than November

[sim1oz]

Someone pressed Send before checking their email Doesn't inspire much confidence!

[paidal_chalne_vala]

I just got an email from PV
"Parks Victoria together with Tourism North East, Visit Victoria and Regional Development Victoria invites you to attend the:

Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing preliminary concept – Melbourne stakeholder briefing

The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing will be a world-class, long-distance walking experience, showcasing the beauty of the Alpine National Park’s natural and cultural landscape.

The project team would like to invite you to contribute your feedback through an open briefing session with the project and consultant team.

When: Friday 11 November 10.00am - 11.30pm
Where: Melbourne CBD. Exact location to be confirmed on Monday 07
RSVP: Midday, Thursday 10 November
Email: FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au

If you are unable to attend this briefing session but would still like to provide feedback, please email your comments to the project team at: FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au

The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing preliminary concept can be accessed via the following link:
http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/explore/parks ... aster-plan"

I have not planned my November 2016 schedule but I will try to attend ;-P

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Good on you Xplora. I will be doing a Gandhi with you . Non violent non cooperation and civil disobedience. Bring it on!!!
Who else is going to the meeting once they ,PV, get their dates right?
I am there, I have left , I can't hear you anymore....

[Lophophaps]

PV made a typo on the meeting notice, and this happens to everyone at some stage. The form of the date is good in that it has day of week, day of month, and the month.It can't be November so it has to be December. I laughed when I saw it, and will wait for an "oops, wrong month" email.

The focus has to be on the facts. Start with the draft management plan, DMP. Is there a final management plan? I can't find it. Focus on established values, like natural ones. Focus on the poor economics and how it is totally insignificant compared to skling. The DMP says there shall be a Falls-Hotham walk, fine. The Plan is not Falls-Hotham, and does not have to be up Diamantina Spur. Stress the hazards. Stress the significant number of errors in the Plan. Ask tough questions, like why there was no economic analysis before the Plan was devised.

My latest draft is 2800 words, and should give some ideas. After I've read the DMP there will be more words. It's a pity VNPA does not have something to give us a lead. Too much happening, methinks.

[Lophophaps]

I've read the draft management plan, and my submission including comments relating to that is set out below. The earlier submission has been deleted.

Edited 2.26 pm on 5.12.15, added par 24. Sorry, I forgot to include this before.

Edited 6.20 pm on 6.12.15. Final version is in a separate post below.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

LOPs, you are kicking buttockial matter with your level of detail. Even Mu`ammar Khaddaffi was not as assiduous in looking for loopholes in the Qu`raan to excuse himself from his evil deeds as you are in fighting the good fight with facts, logic , evidence, proof and water tight arguments driven by your intrinsic connection with nature and experience in these matters.

[Lophophaps]

LOPs, you are kicking buttockial matter with your level of detail. Even Mu`ammar Khaddaffi was not as assiduous in looking for loopholes in the Qu`raan to excuse himself from his evil deeds as you are in fighting the good fight with facts, logic , evidence, proof and water tight arguments driven by your intrinsic connection with nature and experience in these matters.

Thanks for that feedback. Not since the Mt Stiring resort proposal and the stupid plan for a chairlift on the Bungalow Spur have I seen such a dreadful concept. A legal and economic background assists. I'm hoping that anyone at the briefing on 11 December will use my words as a guide to questions. Perhaps the questions could be co-ordinated so that everyone asks something different.

[JulianS]

Not sure how you came up with the 1.28 mil Lophophaps, but it sounds cheap compared with Three Capes in Tas! Did anyone else see this ABC article today? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-05/f ... ck/7004342

25 mil for track + huts. 17,000 chopper flights. And yet still only two-thirds complete, to my understanding...

[Lophophaps]

Not sure how you came up with the 1.28 mil Lophophaps, but it sounds cheap compared with Three Capes in Tas! Did anyone else see this ABC article today? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-05/f ... ck/7004342

25 mil for track + huts. 17,000 chopper flights. And yet still only two-thirds complete, to my understanding...

It's a low estimate. The Plan has what is known as a small target, where the specifics are not given and it's hence thus hard to be critical. This is furher muddied by conflicting information, such as the camp at 1540-High Knob-Federation. I cited a low estimate so that I could not be accused of stating a figure that's too high. There's about 8-10 kilometres of new track, maybe a hut on High Knob or at 1540 metres, maybe something at Diamantina Horseyards, maybe a bit more. Maybe PV doesn't know.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Lop.s , I am taking a copy of your fine work to the meeting/briefing , whenever that is, and will use this as a basis for my questions.
Have you sent a copy to Phil Ingamells at the VNPA yet ?.

[Lophophaps]

Lop.s , I am taking a copy of your fine work to the meeting/briefing , whenever that is, and will use this as a basis for my questions.
Have you sent a copy to Phil Ingamells at the VNPA yet ?.

I'm still sorting out typos and minor details. It's still a work in progress, Although it's nearly finished. I'll be sending a copy to Phil (I think I sent him my first submission) and Bushwalking Victoria early next week. I would love to know what Bushwalking Victoria are saying on this issue.

[Xplora]

Lop - point 43. Did you know that Falls Creek resort are also advertising the crossing also as a 27km day walk with a shuttle bus to pick you up.

[Lophophaps]

Lop - point 43. Did you know that Falls Creek resort are also advertising the crossing also as a 27km day walk with a shuttle bus to pick you up.

I was not aware of this walk. It's confusing as this is the reverse of the Hotham-Falls walk and has the same name as the one that PV is considering now. See
http://www.fallscreek.com.au/attraction ... 08/12/2015
I laughed and laughed when I saw the map - it's upside down! Cretins. Then there are the descriptions about how to walk: "amble, forge, linger, journey, surge, and even ramble." That's what they say: "even ramble". it this different to uneven ramble?

Then there'e the hyperbole: "gather the troops, strap on your walking boots, under an immense sky, wake with the morning sun, get swept up in the open spaces and limitless sky, steady yuorself, steep descent through Conbungra Gap, test your mettle and - possibly the best blunder of all - approach the finish line at Mt Loch car park. Strap on your boots? Oh dear.

The Falls Creek hype is separate to the PV walk proposal as it's with another agency. However, like the dreadful Hotham to Falls walk hype - where the Falls-Hotham hype is sourced - it evidences a lack of coordination. The resorts must take the blame for this if they did not inform NE Tourism and Parks Victoria of their plans. All the tiny huts are marked, which will lull people into a false sense of security. I saw some people on the aquaduct past Ryders Huts. No gear, no compass, tiny map, quite unsure where they were. If the High Plains is promoted too hard people will die. At that point I will be contacting the State Coroner.

[Mark F]

I had to laugh at the brochure.

"Walking on air 2000m above sea level" - obviously, as the ground must be well (100 metres or more) below you. Or are they offering levitation devices.

But the brochure is not what the Falls Creek web site blurb talks about. The web site is talking about the proposed walk not the current one via Swindlers Spur (the brochure).

Highlights include passing spectacular features such as the Razorback Ridge, Mt Feathertop and the basalt column structures that give Ruined Castle its name. The Tawonga and other historic huts and mines

.

Is Hotham to Falls Creek via Feathertop only 25km? It would certainly be a pretty solid day's walk - not something for the first time walker.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Show me this brochure! I like a laugh. The words quoted so far take in four different routes in one hike.
I mean red robin mine is on Machinery spur, Mt Feathertop (1922 M plus 100 M levitation services from an Indian mystical yogi , flown in directly from his ice cave in the great Himalaya),Tawonga huts and so on, it is closer to 35 kms. That is Not a day walk even for hiking nerds such as myself, especially carrying a full pack up and down some of those flaming hills.

[Mark F]

http://www.fallscreek.com.au/attractions/falls-to-hotham-crossing-shuttle?s=06/12/2015&t=08/12/2015
Scroll down the page and click the View Brochure link on the right. It takes you to the Parks Victoria brochure.

[Lophophaps]

I had to laugh at the brochure.

"Walking on air 2000m above sea level" - obviously, as the ground must be well (100 metres or more) below you. Or are they offering levitation devices.

I laughed. There's a song for this walk:
Believe it or not I'm walking on air,
I never thought I could feel so free.
Flying away on a wing and a prayer, who could it be?
Believe it or not it's just me.

The last line refers to the strong winds that blow the party to different places, solo walking with minimal impact. Ah yes, parachutes supplied.

The points raised in your post and others are valid and point to a deep problem. The people involved have no idea what they are doing, and probably don't even know this. The three walks are viable, but not as cited, not with all the marketing hype which is demonstrably false. If I booked on a walk that advertised walking at 2000 metres altitude and went past the places that are not on the route, with fine weather, I would demand and obtain a full refund under Australian Consumer Law. ACL is quite clear on misleading advertising, and if a product is not as advertised then a refund can be obtained. It's the law.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Post removed by admin

[Mark F]

I was having a look through the Falls Creek web site and came across this:

Rocky Valley Lake. Australia’s highest body of water is perfect for a relaxing walk followed by a picnic, fishing or a dip in the clear blue waters.

1600 metres??? Even Pretty Valley Pondage is higher at 1640 metres. Obviously to this copywriter Australia ends at the NSW border. Lake Cootapatamba - 2080m, or Blue Lake, Club Lake, Lake Albina ...... - perhaps only man made impoundments count. So much for truth in advertising

[peregrinator]

I was having a look through the Falls Creek web site and came across this:

Rocky Valley Lake. Australia’s highest body of water is perfect for a relaxing walk followed by a picnic, fishing or a dip in the clear blue waters.

1600 metres??? Even Pretty Valley Pondage is higher at 1640 metres. Obviously to this copywriter Australia ends at the NSW border. Lake Cootapatamba - 2080m, or Blue Lake, Club Lake, Lake Albina ...... - perhaps only man made impoundments count. So much for truth in advertising

Yep, and not always clear or blue.

Are we talking Fools Creek, not Falls Creek?