Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everything

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Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everything

Postby Wollemi » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 11:30 am

Found a short course in abseiling through a private provider - that anyone can do free of charge. Thought I would give it a go to enable me to stay safe.

Some doubt is there, for the course requires me to provide my own equipment. Lithgow TAFE used to supply everything.
Should I be concerned that I am required to supply all my own gear? My current climbing helmet is 13 years old and appears in good order - Petzl Ecrin Roc


List of what I am to bring;

6 x steel & 6 x alloy karabiners – screw gate or tri-lock
 Belay & Abseiling device (capable of use on 10-11 mm rope)
 1 x 50 meter static rope (10-11mm)

------

Statement at the end of their gear list;

Assessment Requirements
Access to relevant equipment

A requirement of any person who is to Guide or Instruct an Outdoor Recreation related activity,
is for them to be able source appropriate equipment to conduct the activity.

Part of the assessment criteria for a Guide or Instructor is the identification, selection and
provision of the equipment required to safely conduct the activity.

Viewing (and using) this equipment, during the course, allows us, as assessors, to confirm that
you are able to recognise what constitutes appropriate equipment and know how to use it.

We have had occasion, in the past, where students were happy to use equipment which was
neither safe nor appropriate and they did not recognise the difference between the equipment
they were able to provide and the equipment that the industry regarded as safe and acceptable
for the application.

Their lack of knowledge in the area was only discovered as a result of a viewing of the
equipment they considered appropriate.

It is self-apparent that a Guide or Instructor who does not have access to the appropriate
equipment, can not conduct the activity in a responsible and safe manner.

It should also be self-apparent that a Guide or Instructor who does not recognise the difference
between equipment which is safe and appropriate and that which is not, has a greatly increased
risk of injuring or killing him/herself or one of the people who place their trust in that Guide or
Instructor.

As an assessor of those wishing to join the ranks of Guides and Instructors, it is viewed as
critically important that anyone who is to be certified as a competent Guide or Instructor
demonstrates a knowledge of which equipment is appropriate and safe to conduct that activity.

The only way of confirming that an individual has this ability, is to view the equipment that the
individual regards as appropriate and provide input on whether or not the equipment is
appropriate.

If you are unable to source the equipment or are unable to determine which equipment is
appropriate and safe, we can not perform a complete assessment of your knowledge and would
therefore have to regard you as “Not yet competent”.
Last edited by Wollemi on Tue 28 Mar, 2023 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby Eremophila » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 11:59 am

Wow that's definitely dodgy. Mind you, I know nothing about abseiling.

Do they test your equipment? What if you're a novice and turn up with a length of clothesline?
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby CBee » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 1:34 pm

12 biners all up? Strange. Unless they are teaching you setup of belay stations or emergency rapping without belay device with rescue. You will also need a safety device such a prusik cord or other mechanical back up devices. Also harness.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby Wollemi » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 2:13 pm

CBee wrote:12 biners all up? Strange. Unless they are teaching you setup of belay stations or emergency rapping without belay device with rescue. You will also need a safety device such a prusik cord or other mechanical back up devices. Also harness.


Online course work required are:

· SISOPLN004 Identify hazards, access and control risk for outdoor recreation activities

· SISOPLN005 Interpret weather and environmental conditions for outdoor recreation activates

· Planning Assignment found - SISOABS009 Lead single pitch abseiling activities on natural surfaces

------

Equipment Requirements – Attached to this email is the gear and equipment required to complete your training/assessment for the enrolled activity.

Part of the assessment criteria for a Guide or Instructor is the identification, selection and provision of the equipment required to safely conduct the activity.


Please bring:
 A driver’s license or similar photo id. as personal identification
 List any issues arising from your workbook tasks/ questions for discussion at the
beginning of the Course Day
 Abseiling / Climbing Helmet
 Abseiling / Climbing Harness
 2 x set of prussic loops- 2 long & 2 short prussic
 Sunglasses (optional)
 6 x steel & 6 x alloy karabiners – screw gate or tri-lock
 Belay & Abseiling device (capable of use on 10-11 mm rope)
 1 x 50 meter static rope (10-11mm)
 Abseil glove (s) – if you use these
 1 x personal first aid kit
 Sunscreen
 Day pack to carry everything
 Water / hydration supply system
 Sunglass (optional)
 Hat
 Hot/Cold/Wet weather gear
 Wet weather gear
 Sturdy closed in shoes for walking and abseiling
 Pen, paper to take notes plus whatever you think you need
 Lunch etc. is to your care
Fuel stove (if you want to cook your own lunch / cup of coffee, etc.)

Note: This gear and equipment can be your own, that you have purchased, or you could hire or or borrow the equipment from someone
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 3:33 pm

Actually it all sounds reasonable to me. Mind you I was taught to abseil by a mate in about 3 minutes and without any safety back-up or the dreaded prussics, but I'd been rock climbing a month by then. It's not rocket science really but you do need some good knowledge on anchors etc. If I had a choice it would be a dedicated static rope for abseiling only but when climbing a dynamic rope is what you usually have and that is what gets used. If you can access both types take both and ask for the small differences in technique between them to be explained, in simple terms at least.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 4:29 pm

Re-Reading it seems to me this may be an instructors qualification course, to get ticked off for insurance purposes etc::::::
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby sandym » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 5:12 pm

I'm with CBee, 12 'biners is an awful lot to do a single pitch abseil, plus the "steel" requirement is odd. But, then I'm a rock climber and think the obsession with abseiling is odd.

It's a free course, I'm tempted to think "you get what you pay for."

My only advice: try not to die.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby CBee » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 5:39 pm

Wollemi, this to me is legit, after reading your last post. If you care for a tip: if you need to buy a belay device, go for an ATC guide (such BD). Can be used in many, many ways. The prussik cord is a must, although I prefer to use a Petzl shunt as a locking back up. With the 2 sets of prusic cords, they will teach you to climb the rope and self rescue. The 12 carabiners are still a mystery to me. Especially the request for the steel one. BTW, abseiling is a useful skill to have, but unfortunately, your safety and life depends upon the gear...
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 7:51 pm

While I agree that a dozen Krabs seems like a lot I have used 4 in a slow slide configuration, 1 on the harness was usually enough back in the day. Been a long time since I hung off a rope tho.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby CBee » Tue 28 Mar, 2023 8:39 pm

A scenario where you build a complex anchor and a second stream for an assisted abseil (back up system with belayer), is easy to use few carabiners. If you add a pulley system to rescue a person back to the top, then you can easily need the 12 biners. But is a scenario that takes time to teach. Not just a simple single pitch abseil on a friendly terrain.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby ChrisJHC » Wed 29 Mar, 2023 7:08 am

Moondog55 wrote:Re-Reading it seems to me this may be an instructors qualification course, to get ticked off for insurance purposes etc::::::
As Moondog says, this is clearly a course aimed at instructors and guides.
Please make sure this is what you’re looking for!

If you’re at that level, then it shouldn’t be too hard to ask around your peers to assemble the gear you need.

One benefit of each attendee bringing multiple sets of gear is that there will be a wide range that the instructors can use to demonstrate different attributes.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby wildwanderer » Wed 29 Mar, 2023 7:15 am

@wollemi. It's possible that you have enrolled in a assessment only evaluation which if you pass would give you a recognised qualification.

This is common for people who work in industry and already have the skills and experience but need the certificate to show they are qualified to their employer.

There may not be any teaching in your course which is why they are not supplying gear. It might be ment for guides who already have their own gear.

Edit. Saw moondog posted same thought. Agree.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby Son of a Beach » Wed 29 Mar, 2023 8:14 am

sandym wrote:the "steel" requirement is odd.


I would guess the steel karabiners are for the top anchor. For this situation, weight is not an issue, and the stronger the better.

I used to use two steel karabiners for top roping, even when climbing.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby rcaffin » Wed 29 Mar, 2023 1:32 pm

This reads to me like some sort of assessment for an instructor. I would not expect them to actually be teaching how to abseil.

You can make a 'crossed crab' abseil 'device, and they do work. But I would NOT use alloy crabs for this, only steel ones. With dirty ropes the alloy could be abraded.

If you want a really good abseil device, buy a Rap Rack. They are very common in canyoning. A 4-bar should normally suit anyone.

Cheers
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby CBee » Wed 29 Mar, 2023 2:33 pm

Those units are part of Outdoor Leadership certificates III and IV. And also some for diploma. So not only focused on abseiling.
Then it will depend how the skill of abseiling and gear management will be used after the course: canyoning, caving, when hiking difficult terrain, just abseiling in a given location, rock climbing? This will determine what sort of gear you will buy. The Rap Rack is handy for some things but not a versatile piece of gear.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby Neo » Wed 29 Mar, 2023 4:39 pm

Sounds dodgy to me.
They don't have enough gear of their own to be running a training course.

Even if it is for recreational skills not a formal qualification.

Perhaps more info needed in the OP. There are several units of competency (subjects) to pass for official quals in abseil etc.
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Re: Course provider in abseiling requires me to bring everyt

Postby wildwalks » Mon 03 Apr, 2023 10:21 am

I think this is clever. If I was going to run a free course, I would want to a way to reduce the number of people turning up with little commitment to using the training/assessment. People who have made the effort to access gear have shown a commitment to doing more abseiling and are likely interested in taking others. In the training world, we can call this kind of thing a 'qualifier', some kind of filter to vet people who are ready, committed, and able to undertake this training or assessment. In mountain biking design, they often include a qualifier at the start of the track (with low consequences if you screw up) to filter out people not ready for what is to come.
It is also part of the assessment, do you know what the gear is? Can you access it and know how to handle it etc.
Be interested in hearing how the assessment goes and what you think of it
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