Firing gun within campgrounds

[stry]

. . . The guy said "don't worry about it mate" but I wasn't particularly convinced . . .

Why not, Erich? The bloke obviously has a superior intellect to be able to respond with a line of such originality and wisdom. And not only that, he's your mate, mate.

That's what Martin Bryant should have said... Don't worry about it mate. Kaboom!

Holey moley !!!

That's a massive leap of something GPS, but I have no idea what. I like to regard myself as a lateral thinker, but I'm more than a little challenged by that comment

[andrewa]

I agree that it's socially unacceptable to discharge a firearm near camping areas, where there may or not be people. I remember once seeing a chap walking along the road near Sheepyard Flat carrying a rifle, and thinking how inappropriate it was, and he hadn't even shot anything! But, I'm just not used to having guns around. I've got no problem with people hunting - except if my labrador is mistaken for a deer!

A

[GPSGuided]

Holey moley !!!
That's a massive leap of something GPS, but I have no idea what. I like to regard myself as a lateral thinker, but I'm more than a little challenged by that comment

Well, was just trying to show how inadequate that comment was. Out there in the bush, all complete strangers and one carries a lethal weapon, it's natural for the unarmed to be on guard, especially so soon after a discharge or two. In similar situations, those yank 'preppers' would probably have removed their gun safety, just in case.

[perfectlydark]

I guess being a relative city boy (although grew up in a rural area) i tend to view guns in general with mistrust and even fear. I accept things are different in the country but shooting near a campground regardless of qhether or not its permitted seems to me to be quite alarming. Just my 2c

[ErichFromm]

I put in a comment earlier but seems to have not saved.

To clarify: I don't think the guy was a loon. He seemed a normal guy out with his son, most likely was firing as he did to impress his son. And I wasn't bothered by the presence of the gun (though am wary of them), only its being discharged. I stated that there wasn't really anyone around - but the point is there is no way to be sure of that. I didn't have my son with me this time - but I might have.

The firing of the gun bothered me because one day I might have my son with me in an empty campsite and I'll be wondering if I need to tell him to be cautious. I consider a campground relatively "safe" and don't want to start feeling the need to believe otherwise.

I've sent an email to the police. Not to get the guy into trouble, but just to ensure that campsites continue to be a place i feel I can let my son run around fairly freely...

[ErichFromm]

Quick response - seems anyone can fire their guns. Seems ridiculous. I can be camping and someone can be firing their rifles right next to me with impunity....

"Thanks Anthony,

There is nothing to stop someone shooting within that area. This question has come up before and there are no relevant offences (unless they’re unlicensed or unregistered of course).

Thank you for the information – we’ll submit an intelligence report and ensure the owner of that vehicle complies with licensing requirements.

Regards,


Lyn Holland
Victoria Police I Senior Sergeant 25072 I Eastern Region, Division 3
Officer in Charge Mansfield Police Cluster
M.E.R.C. Mansfield Shire Council
M.E.R.C. Mt Buller Mt Stirling ARMB
phone: (03) 5775 2555 I fax: (03) 5775 1276
e-mail: [email protected]
address: 92 High Street, Mansfield, Vic, 3722 I DX: 21 7330"

[Travis22]

I dont think you have anything to worry about Erich.

Snakes would pose a far far far far greater risk to your son.

Its the off season, Sunday arvo. The father and son were likely camped there all weekend and after any other campers there left to go home he took out his rifle to show his boy how to shoot or even let his boy have a shot.

Personally i wouldnt take my kids to any campground like that unless we were part of a very large group. Unfortunately campgrounds like that do attract more then its fare share of bogans. Easy access, dog friendly, huge camping areas means trouble (not involving firearms) in one form or another is absolutely guaranteed every long weekend etc. (fighting, drunken stupid behaviour, loud music, blowing up objects in campfires, drink driving etc).

Legally, noone can just go bush and start shooting away as you suggest, but in order to charge someone with breaking the law you need a lot more evidence then hearsay. (Ie. You cannot target shoot on public land, on crown land etc you can shoot pest species and game animals within the laws set up for the relevent game).

Travis.

[Happy Pirate]

I think we need to be vigilant towards any gun-ho attitude towards...guns. We have too much of a habit of following the US wherever they lead and this is not somewhere we want to go.
Here in Tumut there is a very macho attitude towards guns that i find disturbing and naive.

When I was a teenager I was in a walking group in the Gramps when a bloke in a 4WD pulled into our camp and started whinging about women and wives etc...
He left to set up camp a way away but we were all awakened by a gunshot in the middle of the night.
Next morning some of our party discovered he'd taken the easy way out and eaten his shotgun.

Ten years later and my partner and I are being held at gunpoint by my Schizophrenic brother in-law and have to wrestle him to ground without being shot.

Hollywood desensitises us to the reality of guns but the dark side is worth remembering.
Report it and speak out whenever possible
Steve

[neilmny]

...................
Hollywood desensitises us to the reality of guns but the dark side is worth remembering.
Report it and speak out whenever possible
Steve

Very true Happy Pirate and not only guns but all kinds of violence.
Not exactly relevant but if I recall correctly there was once a law that prohibited "the discharge of a firearm within 24 miles of the GPO or 1 mile of a post office".
I wonder what the laws are now.

[photohiker]

Deleted. Page 2 missed!

[Hallu]

I think the police gave you their version of "don't worry mate"...

[stry]

I think the police gave you their version of "don't worry mate"...

I don't. As I have posted elsewhere, rural police are usually responsive to concerns such as those expressed by Erich. The response from the police in this case does not appear dismissive to me.

There are some incredibly far fetched dots being joined with some very tenuous extrapolations in this thread.

The overly dissected comment of "Don't worry mate" may have been nothing more than a less than articulate attempt at reassurance. It may have been rudeness. It may have shown a desire not to get embroiled in a potential disagreement. None of us know.

[ErichFromm]

Not exactly relevant but if I recall correctly there was once a law that prohibited "the discharge of a firearm within 24 miles of the GPO or 1 mile of a post office".

That could be the solution then - we just need to open a post office near every campsite?

Clearly there are a lot of strong views about guns (and this wasn't a topic about guns, just their firing in a campsite and whether it was legal). And we're all entitled to an opinion right?

[Travis22]

Australias gun culture has never been anything like America's and our laws have never remotely looked to be headed in a similar direction to thoughs in America, in fact many in America look to Australia and hope they could one day have the sort of control we have in place here over there.

That is, control over the law abiding folk as we all know the criminals dont give a stuff about whats illegal.

Travis.

[GPSGuided]

We don't have their first amendment. Lucky!

[puredingo]

Agreed stry. IF the fella was within his rights to discharge the firearm where he was then there is nothing worse in my opinion than having to explain yourself to the prying public because they they happen to be foriegn to a particular activity.

I know a lot of good blokes who are men of few words..."IF" he was doing no wrong than he shouldn't need to excuse himself nor explain himself. A rifle is simply a tool and only as dangerous as the operator. Probably just using his door as a bench rest and letting his son put the last .22 into a nearby post?

This new "Bogan" bashing is getting out of hand...I wonder what this sites poster boy Lord Dunphy would think of it. I've seen a few photo's of him toting an evil gun, that must make him KING bogan.

[north-north-west]

Agreed stry. IF the fella was within his rights to discharge the firearm where he was then there is nothing worse in my opinion than having to explain yourself to the prying public because they they happen to be foriegn to a particular activity.

I know a lot of good blokes who are men of few words..."IF" he was doing no wrong than he shouldn't need to excuse himself nor explain himself. A rifle is simply a tool and only as dangerous as the operator. Probably just using his door as a bench rest and letting his son put the last .22 into a nearby post?

This new "Bogan" bashing is getting out of hand...I wonder what this sites poster boy Lord Dunphy would think of it. I've seen a few photo's of him toting an evil gun, that must make him KING bogan.

Oh dear. A little less of the polarisation, please.

It's fair enough to be concerned about guns being fired within a campground. Legal or not, this is a potentially dangerous activity. And if someone doesn't know whether or not it is legal, it's fair enough to question it.

[ErichFromm]

Oh dear. A little less of the polarisation, please.

It's fair enough to be concerned about guns being fired within a campground. Legal or not, this is a potentially dangerous activity. And if someone doesn't know whether or not it is legal, it's fair enough to question it.

Hear, hear.

I think I've gone out of my way not to paint the guy with the rifle as any sort of bogan, nor imply anything sinister. As before - can't we share opinions without things getting nasty? I believe there is a middle, sensible, ground isn't there? Some people don't like guns, others do.

[Moondog55]

Please define "dangerous" Anything is potentially dangerous, but I do agree the conversation is becoming polarised as these discussions often do.
But let's be open about one thing here; from the start there was never any clear evidence that the discharge was within any defined area or unsafe.
The odds of being hit by an unaimed projectile are very very low and even by an aimed projectile are not bad; it's why soldiers use automatic weapons very few soldiers are marksmen and most shooters and hunters are only fair shots, that's all you need to be in most instances Simply a fair shot
Erich Fromm I think your attitude is reasonable where concern for you kids is concerned but a little unreasonable on whether it was safe and/or illegal;
I do think you should put more trust in the bloke behind the trigger and should have believed him when he said there was nothing to worry about.
Just out of interest did you say "G'Day and how are you" first before asking about the shot you heard? That can make a huge difference with folks attitude in the country as would a compliment on what sounds like an expensive bit of kit, it's not usual to waste money on cheap rifles and paint jobs are expensive

[ErichFromm]

Erich Fromm I think your attitude is reasonable where concern for you kids is concerned but a little unreasonable on whether it was safe and/or illegal;
I do think you should put more trust in the bloke behind the trigger and should have believed him when he said there was nothing to worry about.
Just out of interest did you say "G'Day and how are you" first before asking about the shot you heard? That can make a huge difference with folks attitude in the country as would a compliment on what sounds like an expensive bit of kit, it's not usual to waste money on cheap rifles and paint jobs are expensive

You're kidding right? You're assessing whether my attitude is "reasonable"? The OP stated facts as they were without embellishment or judgement and merely asked (not stated an opinion either way) whether firing a gun within a campsite was legal. I cast no aspersions, was even generous as to his motivations.

You say I should trust the "guy behind the trigger"? I take it then that you know the guy in question? You must if you feel comfortable advising me how trustworthy he is...

And no - I didn't compliment him on his lovely rifle before asking him if he was the one shooting. I don't think that is something I would ever do. Nor was I aggressive. It was a polite inquiry, now answered: no it is not illegal to fire a gun within a campsite. I personally disagree with this, but in doing so am not stated those who possess guns are bogans or dangerous in and of themselves.

[stry]

Thank you NNW, ErichFromm and MD for the three most recent posts.

A good job of hauling the thread back onto the topic - not easy

Gunshots, particularly if they sound close, can be unsettling, and a properly conducted, concerned follow up, as seems to have been carried out by Erich is to be commended. That's a much better course of action than simply whinging.

It took a long while to be pointed out, but MDs point about there being no knowledge of the direction of discharge really is the nub of the safety question. I alluded to this earlier, but appear to have been too subtle.

If discharge is in a safe direction there is no safety issue. That said, if discharge in a safe direction took place when the camping area had many occupants, I'm sure the police would find some way of dealing with the firer of the shot(s).

Not sure if all the posters are aware of what Sheepyard Flat is, but it is certainly no semi civilised rural caravan park cum camp ground. When it appears deserted, firing a safely directed shot is a long way from being anti social behaviour.

[photohiker]

Bit surprised it is actually legal to fire a gun in a campsite!

[stry]

Campsites such as Sheepyard Flat don't seem to have any specific legal status. They simply exist within another piece of land, and seem to be subject to the controls applicable to that piece of land.

It would be very difficult to define "campsite"', "campgound" etc. in such a way that specific legislation or regulation could be created.

Keep in mind that there is a range of offences regarding unruly, offensive, threatening etc. behaviour which although not firearms specific, are available to police.

There are many people in the bush doing many different things, and is inevitable that paths will cross from time to time. An open smile and a simple "G'day" will usually lead to an exchange and an understanding of each other that would not otherwise be achieved. I think this approach may have been what MD had in mind, rather any criticism of ErichF. An approach which from a city person's view point would be polite may easily be misread as being pushy and assertive.

[flyfisher]

I like your reasoning Stry, no good creating conflict where none really exists.

FF

[Moondog55]

Thanx Stry
Eric I wasn't crititcising Just trying to point out that they do things more slowly in the bush; much more slowly

[Xplora]

With all due respect to anything you have been told by Victorian Police here is an extract from the Firearms Act

130 Offence to carry or use a firearm in certain places
(1) A person must not carry a loaded firearm or use a
firearm in a town or populous place or on any
thoroughfare or place open to or used by the
public for passage with vehicles.

And this is an extract from the Police website

As a guide, Victoria Police has defined these terms as the following:
A 'Populous Place' is defined as a place where numbers of people may gather i.e. a show or event; or is populated or frequented generally by people such as a designated park or open space like a walking track but not limited to the ones referenced.

A Thoroughfare is defined as any street, road, lane, track, bridge or tunnel that is accessible from both ends or any place that is a highway by virtue of a declaration under sub-section (2)(a) of the Road Safety Act 1986.

Putting all the volumnist assumptions aside there is in fact no direct evidence the person Erich spoke to has committed an offence and thus no action can be taken unless this person makes admissions if interviewed. An intelligence report is important as it can be used in various ways at a later date. There have been significant problems with illegal hunting and shooting in the Mansfield area of late so reporting this has been a good thing. If the person is spoken to he may think twice about doing the wrong thing if that was his intention. Deer hunters have also cut padlocks and accessed restricted areas of the ANP close to that location and have illegally used dogs to hunt in the park. To answer the question. If a person discharged a firearm or carried a loaded firearm in a campsite or near a thoroughfare then it would be illegal. The place in question is both a populous place and has thoroughfares. This is for Victoria but similar legislation applies in other states. Check the legislation for your own state to be sure. Also hunting of Sambar is only allowed by stalking in SOME parts of the ANP. You can download the maps from Park Vic website. If you witness such an event then you should take down as much evidence as possible. Descriptions, times, number of people around, location, vehicle numbers etc. Reporting this to Police is important but if you really want them to take action then you have to make a statement and be prepared to give evidence in court if required. You are the witness and without a witness there is no evidence. I have done this in a NSW national park and the offender was prosecuted, found guilty, fined and lost his guns/licence for shooting kangaroos in a campground.

[sambar358]

An interesting one....certainly it is illegal to discharge a firearm on a road, 4WD track or even a walking track and it is also illegal to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle or even if it us unloaded to have the ammunition "readily accessible". A "loaded firearm" is defined as one that can be quickly bought into action so a firearm with nothing in the chamber but rounds in the magazine, or an empty firearm with ammunition nearby is then classed as "loaded" for the purpose of the law. So it is likely that the encountered individuals in the OP were in breach of these conditions if they had a firearm in the vehicle just after a shot was fired.....likely still loaded or ammo close-enough to load it.

But.....a high powered hunting rifle makes a fair bang......and while the report may sound close it could be some distance away too and still sound pretty intimidating to someone not used to that sort of noise or caught unawares. There is some loose definition regarding the illegality of discharging a firearm in a "populous place" but this is more relevant to settlement rather than areas of the bush where someone may be camping.....such as SheepYard Flat. As a hunter I should be aware of the possibility that there are others sharing the bush with me.....walkers, fishermen, horse riders etc and other user groups need also to be aware (where legal) that it's quite likely that they are sharing their patch of forest with a few deer hunters. But certainly the line should be drawn at shooting around occupied camp grounds, along roads/tracks or areas where people are obviously camped. However often this is hard to determine of course in remote bush locations which may or may not have any visitors present. So do I not take a shot at a deer on the hill.....just in case someone may be camped down on the valley floor somewhere.....or do I take the shot and then if I later meet someone who's a bit upset by the implied threat of a big bang nearby....have a chat and try and smooth the waters ?

Someone mentioned in a previous post about being uncomfortable seeing a hunter walking along a road with a firearm. Now when I come out of the bush after a hunt I need to get back to my camp or vehicle somehow and on occasions this means walking along a road, 4WD track or even a walking trail. My responsibilities as far as the law is concerned is that my firearm must be fully unloaded if I do this. And of course I must ensure that my firearm is secure and under my control so it cannot be found or stolen therefore I cannot stash it behind a tree, go back and get the truck and then drive up and collect it. So on the occasions I walk along a track etc with my (unloaded) firearm if I see someone in a vehicle I give them a smile and a wave or if I meet someone walking the trail (which I do now and again) then I'll stop for a chat if they wish to, be polite and we usually end-up talking about the deer and hunting which in most cases they seem blistfully unaware of.

So there's a bit of give and take here.....certainly no one should be shooting where people are obviously camped and along roads, tracks or trails.....that's illegal.....but by the same token in areas where deer hunting is legal there is a possibility of an encounter with a deer hunter or two, or the hearing of the odd shot going off is on the cards. Generally our bush is multi-use and in a lot of our forests and a number of our National/State Parks deer hunting is one of the approved recreational activities......so it stands to reason that now and again someone may see a hunter with a firearm or hear a shot or two. But of course there are also Do's and Don't and a responsibility on the hunters to obey the law, behave appropriately and show respect for other users of the bush.....and if any transgressions of these basics are evident then by all means take some details and report any concerns to the nearest Police for action. Cheers

s358

[flyfisher]

Good post sambar358, gives a good view from the other side of the fence.

Seeing someone with a firearm doesn't bother me at all, it's the individual carrying the firearm that's more of a worry at times.

ff

[Happy Pirate]

When I worked in Tas there was, without a doubt, a hunting culture and so, as a bit of a hippie, I payed a lot of attention to the rhetoric and opinions expressed..
What I found in Tas. was a Hunting Culture that was very careful of gun safety and disinterested in guns as a macho cultture.

In NSW what I'm seeing is rather a Gun culture where the mood is more aligned with the US ideal of defending Gun rights over victims.
I've walked out of our tea room (In Tumut) on a few times due to the old "you can take my guns out of my cold dead hands" arguments....
someone actually said this once...

My defense of this post is not against hunting per-se but against the macho gun culture that treats them as a toy and against the idea that walkers should be having to defend themselves against the misinterpretation of themselves as something shootable.

Which is the more defendable right? To fire a weapon or to be safe from gunfire?

[GPSGuided]

Wow and I know what you mean! Just don't turn into an Upset Pirate as you walk out.