The Bush Toilet Discussion

[Son of a Beach]

I have a friend who's invented a no-chemicals-input AWTS (Aerated Wastewater Treatment System), and has started up a business for manufacturing, selling and servicing them. The first production unit is installed at my house, and the prototype is installed at his house, with a few other units currently being sold for houses and industrial businesses. The certification testing (done on my unit while it was connected to the town sewerage system - ie a LOT of input), showed that it far exceeded the required standards.

Have any studies been done on volume? Systems that work well for home use don't always scale up to the level of constant use required by a public toilet.

Good point. My experience (through work) is that composting dunnies struggle in the public sphere as the use is not regular. At home, you can well judge the daily, and annual volumes. In the field, a particular toilet may get no use for a month, or three, and then be utlised to capacity in four days (as examples - in my field this difference is even larger). As such, appropriate sizing is difficult - do you get one that overflows, or that doesn't have enough material to keep the compost type system running ? neither is a good outcome for the manager of the facility, or the public. Add in the vaguaries of dealing with the public (vandalism, misuse, chemical input - Grey Nomads emptyimg their chemical toilets !!) and the system gets harder to manage. We often go for pump-out systems these days.

I don't know about composting ones, but for an AWTS, it is started off (when new) by filling it with clean water. After this it just runs as the raw material is flushed into it (I believe it works mostly by bacteria that comes with the flush?). However, it works, it clearly works well when it's never been used before. I would assume this means that it would also work well if it has been unused for a long period of time, but can't say for sure. During periods of no use, it would not pump out (because it only pumps out when fills to a certain capacity), and the other internal pump would continue operating periodically, as normal, to keep stuff moving around inside.

The main problem with an AWTS is whether the treated waste is a problem to sprinkle around the wilderness.

[tastrax]

The main problem with an AWTS is whether the treated waste is a problem to sprinkle around the wilderness.

...and the power requirements (if used in a remote location)

[Son of a Beach]

The main problem with an AWTS is whether the treated waste is a problem to sprinkle around the wilderness.

...and the power requirements (if used in a remote location)

That's certainly an issue, but in theory, they don't use much power, and could be supplied by a small solar cell. If they had enough reserve space in them, it may be possible to run with no battery bank, and just let it fill up more overnight (I'm must making this up - I don't know how feasible this really is - just food for though).

[photohiker]

The A in AWTS stands for Aerated. ie, the presence of Air/Oxygen and agitation. If the air stops overnight, I guess it would turn into Anaerobic (absence of oxygen) system so who knows what would happen then...

[Beevor]

The Poo Pot - they're about 90mm in diameter by 170mm deep

Not quite big enough. Especially if you consider the power of the last dehydrated 'Kung Pow Chicken' we sampled. Hideous.

[climberman]

Ta for the input SOAB.

[tasadam]

The Poo Pot - they're about 90mm in diameter by 170mm deep

Not quite big enough. Especially if you consider the power of the last dehydrated 'Kung Pow Chicken' we sampled. Hideous.

I found this PDF file on the Poo Pot.
They don't mention the size of it. But a quick calculation shows if it's 90mm diameter by 170mm high it's about a litre - not much good at all, particularly when their own doco (that pdf file) says

A healthy human adult creates around 500 g of poo per day

So they must be designed for one use per pot.
Unless you've been eating Kung Pow Chicken or similar, it would seem...
They do reference an NZ site that does cornstarch bags though -
http://www.edengreennz.com/

[Ent]

Content deleted by poster

Last edited by Ent on Fri 12 Nov, 2010 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lookie what I found....

http://www.backcountry.com/outdoorgear/ ... 0002M.html

[sml_12]

Interesting topic. Thanks. Have been looking at various poo-tube links for a while now, much to the hilarity of my housemates. I have a hard time relating to the general squeamishness about something we all do. Most of them have wiped babies bottoms and picked up their pet’s poo – I figure there’s not much difference.

Not sure if this has any relevance particularly, and apologies in advance if it doesn’t or anyone finds the subject matter more off-putting than all the poo talk…
I can’t particularly comment about experience on the following whilst out bushwalking, but can only imagine that in light of the inconsiderate behavior of some people with regards their toilet habits, there might not be that much difference to what I’ve experienced on my walks around town….

I have too often been unfortunate enough to come across used disposable nappies – both in public street bins and on the ground – and used feminine hygiene products. Nasty.

Having become more conscious in recent years about what I throw away, the latter of the two has been something I’ve given a bit of thought to. I recently found a product that does away with the standard sanitary napkins and tampons – apparently it’s been around since something like the 1930’s (I guess I’m a bit slow on the uptake). I was delighted to know that I no longer have to dispose of those little nasties, especially in light of the fact that I want to spend more time in the bush. They seem like a useful alternative for the bushwalking set.

Anyway, here’s a link if anyone's the least bit interested.

http://www.ladycup.eu/

Used it. Happy customer.

(Obviously there’s still SOME issue of disposal – but it is minimal comparatively, and I’m sure that it would be easily enough solved given a bit of forethought.)

[sml_12]

Having had a quick re-think and a just as quick search of old topics - I'm not sure if perhaps what I have written above may have been included in the chapter dedicated to women in the "How to Sh.. In The Woods" book:

http://www.kathleeninthewoods.com/tochowtoshit.htm

I don't have a copy myself, so I can't comment. Perhaps someone else knows.
Sorry for any repetition.

[corvus]

sml_12,
Wow interesting topic for a blokey forum and good on you for bringing it up,as a husband (to a woman) for over 40 years and a father of a young woman I have been well aware of the menstrual cycle but like a typical bloke never gave it any thought as to what could be done if it occurred on a BW.
Nuff said from me as I am on totally fragile ground now and profess to know nothing about the subject.
c

[tasadam]

While we are covering all aspects of disposal of that kind of waste in the bush, another alternative - prevention being better than cure, by avoiding menstrual flow while walking, courtesy of the contraceptive pill.

[Chris]

Having had a quick re-think and a just as quick search of old topics - I'm not sure if perhaps what I have written above may have been included in the chapter dedicated to women in the "How to Sh.. In The Woods" book:

http://www.kathleeninthewoods.com/tochowtoshit.htm

I don't have a copy myself, so I can't comment. Perhaps someone else knows.
Sorry for any repetition.

Just plugged the title into Talis (Tas State Library site) and found they have 2 copies, both on shelf (Hobart and New Norfolk). Can't understand why it's not in greater demand
Have put a request in, so may be able to give a book review soon.

[Chris]

Lookie what I found....

http://www.backcountry.com/outdoorgear/ ... 0002M.html

$2US rather inflates the euphamism "spending a penny", doesn't it?
I wonder if they would send us some free samples for research purposes?

[sml_12]

Just plugged the title into Talis (Tas State Library site) and found they have 2 copies, both on shelf (Hobart and New Norfolk). Can't understand why it's not in greater demand
Have put a request in, so may be able to give a book review soon.

Thanks Chris - I'd be interested to hear what you think. I'll try and have a look myself so as to be a bit better informed.

[ashlee]

While we are covering all aspects of disposal of that kind of waste in the bush, another alternative - prevention being better than cure, by avoiding menstrual flow while walking, courtesy of the contraceptive pill.

Easier said than done tasadam.

[corvus]

Adam,
I have it on "good authority " that the" pill" does does not change the bodily function on the 28 day cycle,again just a blokes comments however from expert sources.
c

[Chris]

Adam,
I have it on "good authority " that the" pill" does does not change the bodily function on the 28 day cycle,again just a blokes comments however from expert sources.
c

Sorry Corvus, there are ways around that.
I'm NOT dispensing medical advice, but many women discard the inactive 25% of the pills most of the time.

[north-north-west]

I was delighted to know that I no longer have to dispose of those little nasties, especially in light of the fact that I want to spend more time in the bush. They seem like a useful alternative for the bushwalking set.

Ahhh, the joys of menopause . . .

I have the "How to . . . " book. The women's only section talks mainly about various equipment for hassle-free urination. I don't recall any discussion about menstrual products.

[corvus]

I retreat from this particular discussion despite my "advisor" standing by her advice,just consider me told !! by both sides
c

[flyfisher]

I retreat from this particular discussion despite my "advisor" standing by her advice,just consider me told !! by both sides
c

'Tis a wise man who knows when to quit.
ff

[corvus]

"Scared we little guy" perhaps.
c

[ashlee]

Adam,
I have it on "good authority " that the" pill" does does not change the bodily function on the 28 day cycle,again just a blokes comments however from expert sources.
c

Sorry Corvus, there are ways around that.
I'm NOT dispensing medical advice, but many women discard the inactive 25% of the pills most of the time.

You're right Chris, some women can skip the sugar pills. This doesn't work for all women though. Certainly not me, and I am on 25mg norethisterone.

[bushrunner]

Interesting thread.
Don't cavers have to carry out all their own waste? If so, what do they use? Maybe whatever system they use could be adapted for our purposes.

[stu]

Sorry, i've only had a passing glance at this thread, it is a major issue at places like Lake Rhona as has been discussed before & my input into my bad experience with the High Moor toilet pod:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1290&p=10242&hilit=Rhona#p10169

Knowing a lot of climbers, some big-wall style (ie. multiple days on the wall in portaledges), they have used these with fairly positive feedback:

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/waste_case.html

Obviously it an issue that has to be dealt with on a multi-day climbs, especially high-traffic areas like in Yosemite valley.
Note the special 'pooh- powder' it uses?
Application for walkers?

[Orion]

Wag bags are used in some wilderness areas here in the U.S. They are made from a supposedly biodegradable material with a bit of powder (that "poo powder" already mentioned) that turns into a gel when it gets wet. It reduces the odor somewhat depending on the, umm, load. Included is an outer ziplock bag to carry the inner one in. In addition to Wag, there is a similar product called Restop which has a somewhat more odorproof outer bag. Because of the gel which supposedly inactivates the waste It is legal to simply dispose of these bags in normal garbage cans. They can be pretty stinky though. These retail for a few dollars (USD) per bag. One can often use a bag more than once.

They are required for use in a few selected high impact wilderness areas here. Some conscientious folks in the winter also carry out their waste rather than deposit it a few feet down in the snowpack. There are virtually no toilets in the bush here.

There is a problem with transporting the wag bags since even in their outer ziplocks they tend to smell after a while. And the risk of puncture is not to be taken lightly. Some people carry a plastic jar or large tupperware item to transport them but most just put it on or near the top of their backpack and hope for the best.

For big wall camping some climbers use wag bags and/or a Metolius Waste Case but it's more common to just build some sort of container that is lightweight, reasonably tough, and odor proof. A common choice is a plastic jar with a screw top lid, like the kind that energy drink powders come in. I've used similar jars on walls. Something about 4 liters in size works pretty well. A little bit of kitty cat litter helps and that poo powder would be nice to find. I see now that it can be ordered on the internet.

[Chris]

Finally finished reading the book How to **&%$#! in the Woods: An Environmentally Sound Approach to a Lost Art (Paperback) by Kathleen Meyer.
(* didn't expect to be censored there! The original reference in this forum got through OK).

It's VERY comprehensive, hilarious in parts, rather turgid in others, but convincing in its arguments for CARRYING OUT.

The author’s general philosophy can be summarised by 2 contradictory quotes: “One can only do what one can do” but “The easier we make it for ourselves, the harder it will be on Mother Earth”

Unfortunately our local library copy dates back to 1994, though apparently the second edition came out in 2004. It is also a US book, so not always appropriate for us, but there’s plenty of common ground.

What did I learn?
Amongst many other gems of information and advice, the practicalities used by rock-climbers (just let fly) and sea kayackers (over the side) By comparison, I think life’s a bit easier for us.

If not carrying out, dig 150-200mm (the top 200mm of soil contains the most effective enzymes for breakdown).

A DIY carry-out container can be made with a length (variable depending on duration of walk) of eg 100mm diameter PVC pipe.
Glue a cap on one end and fit a plug on the other. Using tape and webbing this can be slung from the pack, belt or whatever.
Make deposits in paper bags, maybe containing a little kitty litter for absorption and transfer paper bag to tube.

Spatter avoidance for women,and comfort for anyone whose squatting muscles have atrophied:
Find 2 rocks or logs close together.
(The steep incline of a hillside, the side of a boulder or a tree-trunk could substitute for the second rock or log).
Sit near the front edge of one and put your feet up on the other. Relax and enjoy.
The author emphasises the importance of selecting a site with an inspiring view to maximize enjoyment.

[Peaksnik]

Disposal of Poo Pots doesn't appear to be straightforward, as this notice from a mountaineering website dealing with Arthurs Pass NZ attests:

"POO POTS are great but they cannot be disposed of in the Arthur's Pass Village sewerage systems; DO NOT put them in our waste bins; YOU CAN put them in a long drop toilet at one of the campsites."
http://www.softrock.co.nz/mg/index.php

I've been to AP several times staying in the NZ alpine club's base hut in the village. It has flush toilets but I've no idea where the waste goes. Clearly wherever it goes cannot handle Poo Pots.

Perhaps this could be a problem also in Tassie.

[jcr_au]

Interesting thread folks, and I was originally attracted to the title as I would like to find an easier way to dig a decent hole in hard ground as, a) I have a crook shoulder & anything to help it is of interest b) I'm sure the first person to develop a light weight soil auger or the like is going to be on to a winner.

Just a bit of a (highly simplified) explanation of the difference in the 3 types of main stream treatment mentioned in the thread.

Septic - some of the solids settle to the bottom of the tank as the sewage flows through the primary chamber. Anaerobic bacteria slowly break down these wastes, with an emphasis on slowly, but a significant amount of material flows out of the tank and into the effluent trenches. These trenches are at a relatively shallow depth - 500mm- and at this depth in good soils the bacteria that can exist in the soil are aerobic in nature and these are far more efficient at break down the material being treated. Septic systems in a domestic setting need little maintenace, just a pump out every couple of years+

In an AWTS the system generally has 2 chambers, the first of which is the same as in a standard septic system, ie anaerobic. The waste then passes into the secondary chamber in which the aeration takes place and this promotes the break down of waste by aerobic bacteria. The plants are designed to achieve a high level of treatment when operating well but not complerte treatment. The waste then is discharged into shallow trenches as in the septic system, or irrigated in either a drip irrigation system or a subsurface irrigation system with the ground based bacteria continuing to "work" on the remaining untreated material. Because of the better quality of effluent these systems can generally be used closer to streams or other sensitive areas, or with shallow soils or in other problem areas

In a worm farm the worms obviously do the majority of the work producing a humus like material and a reasonably well treated liquor.

The AWTS (at least those licenced in Vic) all require significant amounts of power to run the pumps or other moving parts that are used to achieve the aeration - about $800-1000 of mains electricity per year for a 3 bedroom house, and have to be serviced regularly. They have to run 12 months per year

Worm farms are only licenced as the equivalent of a septic tank in Vic and are not AWTS equivalents. The Vic EPA will not licence them as such as they rely on the health of worms. If something adversely affects the worms they take a long time to recover and if they are faced by a surge in loading they take a long time to breed up to cope. In an AWTS the bacteria can handle a level of inconsistent loading far better.

I'm sure there are some microbiologists on this list who can explain this better, but it sort of explains the pro's an cons of the different systems I hope

john r