The Bush Toilet Discussion
Posted: Tue 11 Aug, 2009 10:48 pmSince long before my Long Drop Residents topic, I've been thinking about making a topic on toilet waste in the bush.
I have discussed the idea of doing a pictorial on how to dig a hole and do the deed, so next time I feel inclined, I may add that to this discussion.
I've been mindful of what to do in winter - a bit of snow camping. Can't just dig a hole, and if you do, (a) what are you digging? (b) what if you keep striking rock? (c) probably think of heaps of negatives here.
I've heard about poo tubes. Not that I've seen one, but I imagine a long cylinder made of poly pipe, sealed with a cap at one end and sealed with a screw lid at the other. What, I suppose a diameter of something like 50mm - 75mm would work, and a length convenient enough to strap on the outside of the pack.
Doing the deed on paper towel so the whole lot can be carefully picked up and dropped in the tube.
A yukky job to empty it. And any air-freshener type additives are really bad for the operation of composting dunnies if you want to empty when you find one, so you shouldn't use them.
Another idea that I thought of recently was brought about courtesy of a recent visit to a hospital where they have sick bags.
The concept seems sound - a plastic bag with a lightweight plastic ring wide enough to position, or hold, then tie the bag off or seal it with a clip like what holds loaves of bread closed.
Then the whole bag goes in the tube. But what to do with it? Cannot just empty into the composting toilets or the pods about the place, that would not be good for them because of the plastic.
Take them home to dispose of them in the rubbish? Biohazard I suspect, But if it is, how many full baby nappies are disposed of in the rubbish each day?
So maybe that is an option, I don't know.
I took this idea a step further and contacted the Australian distributor of these bags, they actually have a website for these - http://travelsicknessbags.com/
They sent me a few sample packs of the sick bags, and another product, I will elaborate on these further later.
It would be nice if I could find bags that work for the purpose but are biodegradable. Maybe paper bags? Straight in the tube then surely can be emptied into any installed toilet facility such as composting or pod.
But paper bags come with a risk in that if things get wet, they will get messy in more ways than one.
I know from personal experience there are people out there that do not care where they "dump" - I have had to bury (OK I didn't "have" to, but ordinarily I can't just leave them there) other peoples indiscretions at Frog Flats (just off the track), in the bushes at South Coast Rivulet (that person seriously was not well), Walls near Dixons Kingdom, and I am sure I am not alone. (I couldn't do anything about the one at Mt Anne as referred to at the bottom of this post.)The discussion of the dump beside the lake at Echo Point, the Lake Rhona problem as mentioned, I am sure people have other shocking stories.
Whilst talking to some PWS staff I gleaned the following on toilet developments...
The normal progression goes something like this.
Phase 1 - People go where they like in the scrub. This then turns into a "public problem" either because of "visual pollution" (scats and paper around the place) or through gastro (which generally has nothing to do with toilets and more to do with an individuals personal hygiene).
Phase 2 - The problems above generates debate so the next level of infrastructure is considered either a long drop (no longer legal in most places) or a fly out tank with no building (like the Western Arthurs). This introduces minor problems with waste disposal as most is considered "toxic" waste (untreated) so it can only be disposed to special sites (some councils only)
Phase 3 - People that don't like bush squatting or the tanks suggest we should put in a building. This often occurs through walker displacement as a place becomes well known. Old clients (the tough walker) get replaced by the less tough clients who like a few comforts. This can be a building like at Wild Dog Creek where numbers allow a regular inspection to change the bins (not much volume in bins ...about 400 litres so inspections need to be regular) - still toxic waste. (As an aside, because of recent discussion on this forum about this problem at Lake Rhona, here's hopping something happens there soon.)
Phase 4 - Volume of use creates a maintenance nightmare with bins/overflows. Next step up is the hardest! Remove the liquid (high volumes) from the piles and reduce solid waste by composting. This is the toilets on the Overland and believe me they are probably the only ones that work in that environment with the current numbers. We have tried just about every system on the planet! Can be downgraded from toxic, subject to serious testing, compliance to standards and slightly less issues with disposal.
Phase 5 - More use that overloads the system above. OK, do you now multiply the number of composters (to give needed compost time so it doesn't revert to toxic waste) or do you try something else. Most of the next set of toilets rely on water based processes (septics or hybrids like Gough systems). OK, so now you need water and possibly a fair bit (depends on system/use levels). This also introduces next problem. Can you put overflow effluent to ground/surface or does that also need to be flown out or processed in some way.... and what happens when the system is full? Septics need to be pumped eventually as do most hybrids (even with microflush systems) but at least that can go straight to sewerage schemes (in most cases) so disposal is easier...after you get it out of the bush!. We have also had very little success with evaporators to reduce liquid waste volumes.
The Overland is probably at about Phase 4.3. We are removing waste slightly quicker than we would like (but still compliant last time I checked) but there are some challenges with Phase 5. New Zealand often has septics and spray to surface systems (Milford, part of the Kepler, some of Routeburn) BUT they often close and drain them in winter and open up pit toilets for off season use.
Its a challenge for all managers and sometimes it comes down to us accepting lower standards. Personally I think Tassie does in better (environmentally) than NZ as far as toilets go on their major tracks. With much higher rainfalls they don't have some of the nutrient problems that we face when we try and disperse to ground or surface.
This sort of suggests that if we used tubes of a sort, and emptied them in existing facilities, we would not be assisting the current problems faced with these issues.
So now I will throw it open for further discussion - maybe as a group we can find a solution to some of these problems that might well assist us all.
It would be nice if we could keep this discussion on topic, if it strays too far I might delete / edit / move posts as needed to try and keep the topic to the point.
Anyone got any ideas? Seen how it's done elsewhere? Something to add?
I have discussed the idea of doing a pictorial on how to dig a hole and do the deed, so next time I feel inclined, I may add that to this discussion.
I've been mindful of what to do in winter - a bit of snow camping. Can't just dig a hole, and if you do, (a) what are you digging? (b) what if you keep striking rock? (c) probably think of heaps of negatives here.
I've heard about poo tubes. Not that I've seen one, but I imagine a long cylinder made of poly pipe, sealed with a cap at one end and sealed with a screw lid at the other. What, I suppose a diameter of something like 50mm - 75mm would work, and a length convenient enough to strap on the outside of the pack.
Doing the deed on paper towel so the whole lot can be carefully picked up and dropped in the tube.
A yukky job to empty it. And any air-freshener type additives are really bad for the operation of composting dunnies if you want to empty when you find one, so you shouldn't use them.
Another idea that I thought of recently was brought about courtesy of a recent visit to a hospital where they have sick bags.
The concept seems sound - a plastic bag with a lightweight plastic ring wide enough to position, or hold, then tie the bag off or seal it with a clip like what holds loaves of bread closed.
Then the whole bag goes in the tube. But what to do with it? Cannot just empty into the composting toilets or the pods about the place, that would not be good for them because of the plastic.
Take them home to dispose of them in the rubbish? Biohazard I suspect, But if it is, how many full baby nappies are disposed of in the rubbish each day?
So maybe that is an option, I don't know.
I took this idea a step further and contacted the Australian distributor of these bags, they actually have a website for these - http://travelsicknessbags.com/
They sent me a few sample packs of the sick bags, and another product, I will elaborate on these further later.
It would be nice if I could find bags that work for the purpose but are biodegradable. Maybe paper bags? Straight in the tube then surely can be emptied into any installed toilet facility such as composting or pod.
But paper bags come with a risk in that if things get wet, they will get messy in more ways than one.
I know from personal experience there are people out there that do not care where they "dump" - I have had to bury (OK I didn't "have" to, but ordinarily I can't just leave them there) other peoples indiscretions at Frog Flats (just off the track), in the bushes at South Coast Rivulet (that person seriously was not well), Walls near Dixons Kingdom, and I am sure I am not alone. (I couldn't do anything about the one at Mt Anne as referred to at the bottom of this post.)The discussion of the dump beside the lake at Echo Point, the Lake Rhona problem as mentioned, I am sure people have other shocking stories.
Whilst talking to some PWS staff I gleaned the following on toilet developments...
The normal progression goes something like this.
Phase 1 - People go where they like in the scrub. This then turns into a "public problem" either because of "visual pollution" (scats and paper around the place) or through gastro (which generally has nothing to do with toilets and more to do with an individuals personal hygiene).
Phase 2 - The problems above generates debate so the next level of infrastructure is considered either a long drop (no longer legal in most places) or a fly out tank with no building (like the Western Arthurs). This introduces minor problems with waste disposal as most is considered "toxic" waste (untreated) so it can only be disposed to special sites (some councils only)
Phase 3 - People that don't like bush squatting or the tanks suggest we should put in a building. This often occurs through walker displacement as a place becomes well known. Old clients (the tough walker) get replaced by the less tough clients who like a few comforts. This can be a building like at Wild Dog Creek where numbers allow a regular inspection to change the bins (not much volume in bins ...about 400 litres so inspections need to be regular) - still toxic waste. (As an aside, because of recent discussion on this forum about this problem at Lake Rhona, here's hopping something happens there soon.)
Phase 4 - Volume of use creates a maintenance nightmare with bins/overflows. Next step up is the hardest! Remove the liquid (high volumes) from the piles and reduce solid waste by composting. This is the toilets on the Overland and believe me they are probably the only ones that work in that environment with the current numbers. We have tried just about every system on the planet! Can be downgraded from toxic, subject to serious testing, compliance to standards and slightly less issues with disposal.
Phase 5 - More use that overloads the system above. OK, do you now multiply the number of composters (to give needed compost time so it doesn't revert to toxic waste) or do you try something else. Most of the next set of toilets rely on water based processes (septics or hybrids like Gough systems). OK, so now you need water and possibly a fair bit (depends on system/use levels). This also introduces next problem. Can you put overflow effluent to ground/surface or does that also need to be flown out or processed in some way.... and what happens when the system is full? Septics need to be pumped eventually as do most hybrids (even with microflush systems) but at least that can go straight to sewerage schemes (in most cases) so disposal is easier...after you get it out of the bush!. We have also had very little success with evaporators to reduce liquid waste volumes.
The Overland is probably at about Phase 4.3. We are removing waste slightly quicker than we would like (but still compliant last time I checked) but there are some challenges with Phase 5. New Zealand often has septics and spray to surface systems (Milford, part of the Kepler, some of Routeburn) BUT they often close and drain them in winter and open up pit toilets for off season use.
Its a challenge for all managers and sometimes it comes down to us accepting lower standards. Personally I think Tassie does in better (environmentally) than NZ as far as toilets go on their major tracks. With much higher rainfalls they don't have some of the nutrient problems that we face when we try and disperse to ground or surface.
This sort of suggests that if we used tubes of a sort, and emptied them in existing facilities, we would not be assisting the current problems faced with these issues.
So now I will throw it open for further discussion - maybe as a group we can find a solution to some of these problems that might well assist us all.
It would be nice if we could keep this discussion on topic, if it strays too far I might delete / edit / move posts as needed to try and keep the topic to the point.
Anyone got any ideas? Seen how it's done elsewhere? Something to add?
they're about 90mm in diameter by 170mm deep. They sell them for $5 in NZ, and have helpful warning notices - such as "Do not use for food storage" 
The Poo Pot comes with a supply of biodegradable cornstarch bags (550mm x 430mm) in a zip-lock bag, as well as a small bottle of antibacterial hand-wash. Here's how they work: