Washing & Personal Hygiene while Bushwalking [split]

[north-north-west]

I still like my comforts, for example I usually have my small S2S kitchen sink with me to wash myself with and my clothing ( I have this thing about not washing in the rivers...). If I don't bother with it I use a stuff sac inside out.

Why wash? You're just going to get all hot and sweaty again the next day.

[Franco]

Would you believe that I often shave as well ?
Two drops of Dr Bronner's soap and a disposable razor....
Seriously I believe that washing and changing into my "night" clothing keeps me warmer and allows a much better night sleep.
I use a Chux and about 1 liter of water (with a few drops of the above mentioned soap...)
Franco

[north-north-west]

I change, but I don't wash. For one thing, getting wet cools you down. And any sort of soap at all damages the environment. I'd rather a little temporary personal pollution than risk polluting the bush.

Toothbrushing, of course, is a different matter. I can't sleep if I haven't scrubbed the fangs.

[Son of a Beach]

I change, but I don't wash. For one thing, getting wet cools you down. And any sort of soap at all damages the environment. I'd rather a little temporary personal pollution than risk polluting the bush.

Toothbrushing, of course, is a different matter. I can't sleep if I haven't scrubbed the fangs.

I hope you don't use toothpaste - don't want to pollute the environment! Just joshing, of course. (although for the record, I don't take either soap or toothpaste bushwalking).

On a very long walk, I'll sometimes do a bit of a wash with just a chux and plain water every few days, and give the walking socks as good a wash as I can in boiling water. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of point, as it's all just as stinky and horrible within another day or so, anyhow.

[frank_in_oz]

On a very long walk, I'll sometimes do a bit of a wash with just a chux and plain water every few days, and give the walking socks as good a wash as I can in boiling water. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of point, as it's all just as stinky and horrible within another day or so, anyhow.

Same same. The bit I don't like is bending over and doing up my laces in the morning - crutch rot is usually there by day 2 and any amount of washing just does not replace a good hot shower.

[tasadam]

We don't take soap or toothpaste or any washing detergents of any kind.
Washing the face and hands as needed in fresh water, no towel.
Only full wash I have had out there is a swim across the Franklin River, and it was sooooo cold I was hardly hanging around for a scrub-a dub.
Re teeth, a local chemist sells these tiny little bottles of explosive mouth freshener, mint tasting and very strong. I should look up the name, they're perfect because of the size.
One drop on a damp toothbrush and at least the taste is ok. Nothing environmentally bad to spit out.
Dishes done with warm water from the billy, and a scourer.

[Clownfish]

You can brush your teeth with Bicarb of Soda. It's not the greatest: a little salty tasting and definitely gritty on the palate , but once you rinse, your teeth feel really nice and clean. I don't know that it does anything for your breath but the aforementioned mouth freshener would probably do the trick there.

As far as I can ascertain from this MSDS [url]: http://web.grcc.edu/Pr/msds/facilities/ ... bonate.pdf[/url], the environmental effects of sodium bicarbonate are not significant.

Even more pertinent to a long walk perhaps, I've just discovered this link extolling the virtues of bicarb as a "natural deodorant":

http://sustainableecho.com/bicarb-soda- ... deodorant/

[Nuts]

I/we use a small amount of (locally produced) 'bio-degradable' soap. The ingredients (saponins derived from coconuts) obviously dont occur naturally but they do exist in other forms, so I guess that the active chemical components may be similar to those found here?

We also use the same formulae 'at home' in the kitchen and laundry..... which brings some interesting thoughts- Obviously some areas are more 'sensitive' than others, however, is it really so 'noble' to go without Anything while 'out there' without bothering 'down here'.. sure the 'perceived' damage may be less, the effects 'out of sight and mind' but do those that do so while in the bush spare a thought at home?

(Nothing 'high brow' here, I've only in the last few years started to consider alternatives for these things. Similar concerns held for many such topics (such as toileting' (ie. do you really Need a 'special' bag or container to start carrying 'droppings') and track conditions' (Without spreading erosion isnt the impact limited to increased personal effort, seems to me that there is only so far track 'braiding' will go before the effort outweighs 'plowing in' (or use of a new route altogether)). I am aware of the flow on through eco-systems and hidden dangers but many times it seems 'visual amenity' is confused with serious environmental effects. Concerns (education and funding) might be better directed?). Hmmm, perhaps another topic again?

[Son of a Beach]

We also use the same formulae 'at home' in the kitchen and laundry..... which brings some interesting thoughts- Obviously some areas are more 'sensitive' than others, however, is it really so 'noble' to go without Anything while 'out there' without bothering 'down here'.. sure the 'perceived' damage may be less, the effects 'out of sight and mind' but do those that do so while in the bush spare a thought at home?

(Nothing 'high brow' here, I've only in the last few years started to consider alternatives for these things. Similar concerns held for many such topics (such as toileting' and track conditions). I am aware of the flow on through eco-systems and hidden dangers but many times it seems 'visual amenity' is confused with serious environmental effects. Concerns (education and funding) might be better directed?). Hmmm, perhaps another topic again?

That's certainly worth considering. As for myself, all of my sewerage and grey water (including soaps, etc) gets processed by a unit in my front yard, and irrigated into my own front yard after processing (not so much because I'm an environmental fanatic, but because the council requires it - but I'm glad that it has turned out that way, anyhow). So if I am polluting anything by what I use at home, it's only my own yard. However, as far as I can tell, everything that comes out of the unit is quite safe, and not likely to damage anything, even if it runs off out of my yard (which is unlikely, by design due to council requirements).

Soap itself is not a terribly unnatural product. Its a matter of how much such things are likely to upset the balance and how sensitive each particular environment is to such changes in balance.

[corvus]

Nuts you make a good point about chemical use in the home environment which when flushed or drained ultimately goes into our Oceans so a few drops of Biodregadeable "soap" in the wild is not going to have a major impact provided that it is used well away from water sources IMHO,I use salt on my toothbrush if my teeth are really cruddy but just the tooth brush normally and as I don't intend to get up close and personal with anyone I let my breath take care of itself .
If you you really need to clean yourself on the track some "wet wipes" can be handy and they are easy to carry out in a Zip Loc bag.
c

[dee_legg]

I take a tiny tube of toothpaste and my brush with the intention of using it and spitting the waste into a zip lock bag but either forget to do it and/or can't be bothered. And i take a 20 pack of wet ones for wiping sweat off at the end of the day and for giving any hut surfaces a wipe after we've used them.

[Clownfish]

I take a tube of hand sanitiser (good job the missus gets it free at work!) and a bag of Pine-o-kleen wipes for dunny seats (they go into the rubbish sack afterwards,not the dunny). A tad paranoid perhaps, but when you work in an education environment, you soon get sick of bringing the greeblies home with you

[the_camera_poser]

I used to take a container of baby wipes. Now I use a ultralight towel and a liner in my folding sink. If I'm not clean, I go nuts. I use a dead minimum of biodegradable soap.

[climberman]

Umm, isn't all soap 'biodegradable', like round circles and four-sided squares ?

Personally I'd treat upper catchment freshwater very differently to oceanic outfalls of sewerage (a dubious practice at any rate in my view). Keeping soaps and oils away from the creeks is a good idea. Funny how we can justify a little bit of harm to ourselves if it;s for something we feel is neccesarry.

[Nuts]

Interesting question, i'm no industrial chemist but the term 'bio-degradable' means to me that the product breaks down into its constituents that occur naturally or have no known lasting effect (or accumulate to have one).

From the bit of research I did (and my limited understanding) most 'common' commercially available soaps are made from chemically extracted fatty acids under high pressure. The process introduces trace elements of synthetic chemicals as catalysts. These elements obviously dont occur naturally (and no one is entirely sure of the effect of accumulation). Also (in modern 'anti-bacterial' soaps) a chemical called Triclosan is a common ingredient. It is actually now listed as a pesticide and will have a direct effect on ecosystems from bacteria up (not to mention what it may in fact do to you). The bioderadable soap (or the one I have) contains coconut, palm and olive oils with veg glycerin.

While its not a good idea to use either near a water course, or without moderation, It's got to be far worse the more complex the product.

I also wonder about people jumping into lakes and creeks for a swim, or thinking they do no harm with No soap. Chances are that body fats, residual chemicals, deodorants and a hairload of shampoo/conditioner are left behind.....

[walkinTas]

Umm, isn't all soap 'biodegradable

No. Biodegradable means degraded - broken down - by biological agents (i.e Bacteria). Its not part of the definition, but I think there should be a time element too - something that breaks down inside 6-12 months or quicker. As Nuts said, many soaps have other chemicals and these can't be quickly broken down by bacteria. There is also the added problem that things that might break down quickly in soil, will break down more slowly in water.You should also be careful to choose a biodegradable soap alternative that does not contain phosphates. Wash well away from streams so that the waste has to move through soil before entering the water stream - and so will breakdown quicker.

[the_camera_poser]

Suntan lotion is worse than biodegradable soap, as is DEET. The actions of our boots on the ground is worse than all of them combined, as is the effect of poorly planned and constructed trails. In many wilderness areas the single biggest source of impact on the Environment from backpacking is silt deposition caused by run-off from trails, followed by compaction of the ground both on and off trail. I fail to see how four drops of Wilderness Wash in a bowl of water is a bigger source of destruction than the many other ways in which we pollute/degrade the Wilderness. I suppose we should not brush our teeth either.

But then on the other hand, you ought to see what sort of pollutants an ill human body spreads into the Environment. 4 drops of Wilderness Wash, or a case of Gastro- I wonder which one is worse for the Ecosystem? Especially if you have to fly the Gastro patient out by helicopter. Then you've really made an impact on the Environment.

As with all good things, Leave No Trace can become a form of fanatacism.

[corvus]

Well said t_c_p ,
I admit to DEET (topical not spray) use and Sunscreen (mine is mostly Titanium Dioxide) but as I rarely swim whilst on a bush walk I don't think I contribute much to pollution other than that which is absorbed then excreted through pee and poo.
c

[the_camera_poser]

Well said t_c_p ,
I admit to DEET (topical not spray) use and Sunscreen (mine is mostly Titanium Dioxide) but as I rarely swim whilst on a bush walk I don't think I contribute much to pollution other than that which is absorbed then excreted through pee and poo.
c

I think wisdom and moderation should prevail in all circumstances.

I for one never bush-bash, as I don't feel that my personal enjoyment of exploration justifies the damage I do to the area when I buffalo my way through. But I would never dream of being critical of those who do, as long as they don't leave a lasting trace of their passage.

When I did my grad studies in Natural Resource Management, I studied under four really well-known park managers/designers. Their take on this stuff is that usage must be controlled in such a way as to ensure that the Wilderness is sustainable as an ecosystem, which is pretty much how most of us feel. But when it's broken down into the nuts and bolts of what actually does the damage, some of our most common practices are among the biggest no-no's. For instance, in Alpine and Desert ecosystems, trail-walking is bad, unless on a hardened trail, but if the hardened trail is not water-permeable then it's worse. Bush-bashing is actually better than walking on a dedicated trail, unless you are below the snowline, and is always better in deserts. Running, bike riding and jogging as likewise highly detrimental in many areas, as is skiing and snow-shoeing.

But as with all things, as managers people have to make the decision about how much of the pristine quality they are willing to sacrifice in order to allow access to the bush and still preserve it as "Wilderness," whatever that is nowadays.

It's easy to be arm-chair critics, but none of us really understand what is happening in the Great Outdoors- we may get bits of it, or think we do, but when it comes to the Wilderness, scientists will, or should, tell you that the wisdom of Socrates prevails- the man who knows he knows nothing knows more than anyone else. And while I do truly believe in the Precautionary Principal, a little bit of Sustainability that most folks have forgotten about, I do feel that these things can be carried to ridiculous extremes.

[climberman]

I stand corrected on soap.

tcp - I was always advised that if off-track in a group in an alpine area in Oz, spread out. If there is a track, follow it, if there isn't, don't make one by all following the one path.

Why am I not surprised that park managers think interms of 'usage control' ?

One thing we must ask always is, "just because my trail leaves x m3 erosion a year, how does that sit at a catchement level ? 1% ? 25%, 0.00000002%" I see lots of studies (well, some; it's a small field) saying use type 'a' leads to this level of erosion, therefore it could be bad. None i have read relate it to catchment level numbers. These are the same papers managers use, 'cause they're the only ones.

Anyway, not advocating random destruction and erosion, but some food for thought.

[the_camera_poser]

Climberman- environmental managers doggedly resist looking at management from a catchment, or better yet, bioregional perspective, unless it justifies cutting down some timber or digging a new mine. But even the most progressive models of management, those that look at a bioregion (All of the Central Plateau, for instance) when considering the ramifications of a decision, don't really address the BIG picture. We'll look at the issues relating to a catchment, or to the issues relating to a bioregion, but as far as I know, no one looks at both, which would be the most responsible thing to do. Having said that, I've been out of the environmental management industry for a long time, but that's what it was like 7-8 years ago.

While I am by nature a pessimist of extreme proportions; my exit from environmental management was definitely tainted with a fair dose of disgust based the total lack of progress on critical issues despite decades of too-ing and fro-ing over them. This was in Qld though, which is a hard place to be a greenie..... I think Tassie is better, as the industry-goverment connections are more closely monitored.

[tasadam]

I fail to see how four drops of Wilderness Wash in a bowl of water is a bigger source of destruction than the many other ways in which we pollute/degrade the Wilderness.

Just to keep it topical, I don't think anyone said it was

[the_camera_poser]

I reckon it's topical- our actions have an impact on a huge scale, especially in the wilderness. Small choices make big waves.

[tasadam]

Our actions do have an impact - yes. But you were talking about degradation of tracks etc, which does not really relate to Washing and Personal Hygiene... Not a big deal, just another topic on this forum that has drifted off topic...
As I say, not a big deal.

[photohiker]

I guess the thing about soap or two drops of wilderness wash is not that it is better or worse than a hundred footprints etc - it's additive to whatever else you have been doing to get to the eco sensitive area. So it's a choice of a hundred footprints and two drops of WW or just the hundred footprints.

Personally, I forget washing on the trail. I use handrub for hygiene, brush my teeth with toothpaste (might try bicarb) and pack out used wet-ones from the nether regions.

[Nuts]

Adam...may have been me that started that.... anyhow, just to add that yep, no problem using nothing, going feral whatever fits with each persons own conscience... (I guess it depends on how often or long you are out there. I get some irritating rashes eventually...)

(Corvus....(dont use them very often but) I hadnt thought about the sunscreen/deet but yer them too..)

[Nuts]

And that (waterless?) hand sanitiser, we have been using that also (folks like it ) but the commercial one, it has a list of chemical ingredients. No doubt over a few days, water washing, sweat, swimming, that is going somewhere also....(just a thought shared )

[the_camera_poser]

I guess the thing about soap or two drops of wilderness wash is not that it is better or worse than a hundred footprints etc - it's additive to whatever else you have been doing to get to the eco sensitive area. So it's a choice of a hundred footprints and two drops of WW or just the hundred footprints.

Personally, I forget washing on the trail. I use handrub for hygiene, brush my teeth with toothpaste (might try bicarb) and pack out used wet-ones from the nether regions.

I always used to use wet-ones. I do like that you can pack them out.

[walkinTas]

Good on the people who are willing to think about what they do in a wilderness setting and to think about the products they take with them. The guidelines for washing are unambiguous. Even if you don't understand the science, you can do your little bit by following a few simple steps. Wash a long way away from water bodies (100m) and use nature products (sand and water). And of-course, if you take it in, you take it out. If you want a few more ideas on what you can do to minimize your impact then read this booklet.

As an idea, Low Impact Walking is more than twenty years old - as explained in the article in this Google Book. Read the history on the Official LNT site. So by now everyone knows about it, and everyone is a practitioner, right?

[Nuts]

For those who like to think more about what happens out there, I guess it leads to a better understanding of just the 'impact' that can be had (and not only 'in a (shrinking) wilderness setting...)

I always used to use wet-ones. I do like that you can pack them out.

Just to take the example of 'Wet Ones'

Turning to the back of the pack of wet-ones I have here I read a list of things that I am not familiar with. The simple act of searching for info. brings up some worrying opinions on just what the latin, numbers and acronyms mean. Perhaps(?) most of those chemicals (where terms used include: carcinogens, irritants, anti-bacterials....., anti-freezes) make it back home(?) but they do 'pollute the environment' later rather than sooner (along with their synthetic grade towelette (which would have a breakdown period measured in 'half-lifes' i'd expect)). There are few easy answers in this.

(The act of looking further also makes 'one' think twice about their long term effect on body systems let alone using them as baby wipes. Wet Ones obviously are not the root of all evil but it is no wonder there are so many truly terrible forms of cancer and disease)