snake bite

Bushwalking topics that are not location specific.
Forum rules
The place for bushwalking topics that are not location specific.

Re: snake bite

Postby Eremophila » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 8:31 pm

When walking solo, I like to carry a small permanent black marker and/or a small notepad and pencil.

Notepad doubles as a trip journal on multi day walks. Can also fill out one page with emergency contact & medical details.

Black marker - if no notepad - if you are alone & bitten, circle the bite area prior to bandaging. Write a note on your skin. Type of snake, time bitten.... at worst you could lapse into unconsciousness and anyone who finds you won’t have a clue what’s wrong.
User avatar
Eremophila
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon 24 Oct, 2011 5:15 pm
Location: SW Vic
Region: Victoria
Gender: Female

Re: snake bite

Postby north-north-west » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 9:09 pm

Tortoise wrote:
north-north-west wrote:It takes time for the toxins to move through the system, and a brief low level of activity is not going to hasten the process dramatically. Splint and bandage as soon as you've called for help[ (phone/PLB).

I agree for sure with the bandaging and splinting. I would do that first, though, then call for help (at least putting on the compression bandage). Is anyone here experienced in remote first aid?

My first aid training is woefully out of date, but I'm working on two things:
a) Quickest job first; that means the PLB.
b) It may have changed but I've heard on a number of occasions that the best chance of survival for serious medical issues is to get proper medical assistance ASAP. So, again, PLB first.

That's just my take and my reasoning. Never had to put it into practice and hope I never will.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 15232
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: snake bite

Postby Tortoise » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 9:25 pm

I'm working on two things:
a) Quickest job first; that means the PLB.
b) It may have changed but I've heard on a number of occasions that the best chance of survival for serious medical issues is to get proper medical assistance ASAP. So, again, PLB first.

I was working from the point of view of applying the pressure ASAP to dramatically slow the spread of the (potentially injected) venom. I reckon more time would be bought than spent. But like I said, I wasn't sure. Thanks for your perspective, slparker. Especially since you agree with me.:D Seriously, I do appreciate your experience.

And as we all say, the chances are miniscule. But it's good to have thought about it ahead of time. Now that I think about it, I do know someone who was bitten when bushwalking in Tassie this year. The 3 doctors (give or take one) with him apparently decided on first aid and observation rather than evacuation. The bitee was fine, but I reckon I'd push the button anyway.
User avatar
Tortoise
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 5191
Joined: Sat 28 Jan, 2012 9:31 pm
Location: NW Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Female

Re: snake bite

Postby Neo » Mon 17 Aug, 2020 9:41 pm

A bandage with pressure indicating squares is a great help.
Otherwise and also stay still and hit the PLB.
Neo
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed 31 Aug, 2016 4:53 pm
Location: Port Macquarie NSW
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby skibug » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 1:06 pm

Eremophila wrote:

When walking solo, I like to carry a small permanent black marker and/or a small notepad and pencil.

Notepad doubles as a trip journal on multi day walks. Can also fill out one page with emergency contact & medical details.

Black marker - if no notepad - if you are alone & bitten, circle the bite area prior to bandaging. Write a note on your skin. Type of snake, time bitten.... at worst you could lapse into unconsciousness and anyone who finds you won’t have a clue what’s wrong.


My understanding is that, should you be evacuated to hospital, if the compression bandage seems to be doing its job (ie keeping symptoms under control, preventing venom spread (blood/lymphatic fluid tests), it stays in place - as removing it, even only briefly, may result in catastrophic release of venom from the limb/bite site. To access a venom sample, a small hole is cut in the bandage - so information written under the bandage may not be seen. Mark the snake bite site on the outside of the bandage.

"I'm working on two things:
a) Quickest job first; that means the PLB.
b) It may have changed but I've heard on a number of occasions that the best chance of survival for serious medical issues is to get proper medical assistance ASAP. So, again, PLB first."

If it's me, my procedure would be - 1. down on the ground, mininise all movement and reduce blood flow/heart rate/respiratory rate, find calmness, think. 2. Pressure bandage, splint, then 3. PLB/phone/send for help. By bandaging first, you are potentially buying hours or days of time before requiring medical intervention - the five or ten minutes taken will not make a huge difference in the long run if you've trapped the venom. On the other hand, the extra five minutes or so accessing and setting off the PLB could bring forward serious medical events by hours. Happy to be corrected.

Skibug
skibug
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue 13 Mar, 2012 7:13 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby north-north-west » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 3:38 pm

Given where I carry my PLB it would take a minute at most of very limited physical activity.
Note, I am not advocating for anyone to follow my procedure, just explaining it and the rationale behind it.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 15232
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: snake bite

Postby Neo » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 3:43 pm

Good ideas.
A snake bandage and PLB could be kept together with a good rubberband. Do both at once.
Neo
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed 31 Aug, 2016 4:53 pm
Location: Port Macquarie NSW
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby crollsurf » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 3:57 pm

I don't bother in autumn or winter but Spring and Summer always. Should carry 2 bandages but dont. A PLB always. Snakes in Spring seem to be full on agro and have chased after me on more than one occasion. Crikey

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
User avatar
crollsurf
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2270
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Lamont » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 4:31 pm

crollsurf wrote:I don't bother in autumn or winter but Spring and Summer always. Should carry 2 bandages but dont. A PLB always. Snakes in Spring seem to be full on agro and have chased after me on more than one occasion. Crikey

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

I'm guessing Eastern Brown and/or Tiger?
User avatar
Lamont
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sun 21 Feb, 2016 1:27 pm
Location: Upper Kumbukta West
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: https://www.againstmalaria.com/
Region: Other Country

Re: snake bite

Postby crollsurf » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 4:41 pm

Tigers for sure. Extra angry when interrupting them while mating. Amazing to watch them standing up and intertwined but once spotted, I'm thinking there's an ambush going down and I'm the prey!

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
User avatar
crollsurf
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2270
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Eremophila » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 5:28 pm

skibug wrote:My understanding is that, should you be evacuated to hospital, if the compression bandage seems to be doing its job (ie keeping symptoms under control, preventing venom spread (blood/lymphatic fluid tests), it stays in place - as removing it, even only briefly, may result in catastrophic release of venom from the limb/bite site. To access a venom sample, a small hole is cut in the bandage - so information written under the bandage may not be seen. Mark the snake bite site on the outside of the bandage.


Just to clarify - it's more in case you lose consciousness before being able to apply the bandage. Obviously these items should be kept with the bandage.

By writing a note on your skin, I don't mean at the site of the bite - just somewhere else that's visible.
User avatar
Eremophila
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon 24 Oct, 2011 5:15 pm
Location: SW Vic
Region: Victoria
Gender: Female

Re: snake bite

Postby Warin » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 6:10 pm

If a bandage is not doing its job ... put another bandage over the top. Quick and easy.

If it restricting circulation that is another matter.

For a snake bike - two dots on the outside of the bandage at the site of the bite. This should be visible to the next responder. No need to mark the skin.

Record the time of the bite, probably on the bandage near the bite sight - KISS. This keeps the info at the bite site which is what they will be looking for.

--------------
PLB or bandage first?
For me it is what is to hand first.
Check I have been bitten and now out of harms way - don't want a second bite.
Pack off and deep breath to relax. Think where are my PLB and bandages - if possible lie down now.
Get them out, if the PLB comes first then I'd activate it - less than 30 seconds, don't hurry or panic.
If the bandages come first, check I have access to the PLB and then lie down and put on the bandages. Activate PLB, put marks on bandage and go to sleep (if possible).
User avatar
Warin
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sat 11 Nov, 2017 8:02 am
Region: New South Wales

Re: snake bite

Postby highercountry » Wed 19 Aug, 2020 8:14 pm

crollsurf wrote:Tigers for sure. Extra angry when interrupting them while mating. Amazing to watch them standing up and intertwined but once spotted, I'm thinking there's an ambush going down and I'm the prey!


The performance you've been lucky enough to see is actually 2 males wrestling for the right to mate with a nearby female.
So while you're standing there captivated by the display there's a female not far away ready to pounce for your throat. :D
Lots of other snake species do it too.
highercountry
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 8:52 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Sun 23 Aug, 2020 9:18 am

highercountry wrote:
crollsurf wrote:Tigers for sure. Extra angry when interrupting them while mating. Amazing to watch them standing up and intertwined but once spotted, I'm thinking there's an ambush going down and I'm the prey!


The performance you've been lucky enough to see is actually 2 males wrestling for the right to mate with a nearby female.
So while you're standing there captivated by the display there's a female not far away ready to pounce for your throat. :D
Lots of other snake species do it too.


Spot on highcountry
Have only witnessed it once with 3 Large males Intertwined on one of my many trips to Mt Chappell Island In Bass Strait.
3 of us caught 1 each, and when probed they were all males :D
Regards OLM
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Tue 02 Feb, 2021 4:37 pm

From ABC

A 10-year-old Alice Springs girl is in a stable condition in ICU after she was bitten twice by a mulga snake in her bed last night.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-02/ ... l/13113314

Another one

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-02/ ... f/13110952

Advice from his mum and the quick actions of his mate saved a 16-year-old schoolboy bitten by a deadly brown snake at Cummins on South Australia's Eyre Peninsula during the school holidays.
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Sat 30 Oct, 2021 7:50 am

That time of the year again
A young boy was bitten by a snake at St Hellens last month, he was flown to Launceston hospital by the rescue helicopter then transferred to Hobart hospital.
He survived, no further information on what type of snake bit he received the bite from.
Regards OLM

From ABC
Surviving Snake Bite
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/202 ... /100406488
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby markg » Sat 13 Nov, 2021 1:19 pm

Always have bandages in my pack, even if working around mums small farm doing fence repairs and other chores. Just got back from 5 days bush and saw about 5 browns and a copperhead. Moroka 30 make great snakeproff gaiters, easy to put on and comfortable.
markg
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat 19 Apr, 2014 8:41 am
Location: Phillip Bay Sydney.
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Sat 30 Apr, 2022 9:25 am

One from ABC

A good rescue effort for a dry bite.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-29/ ... /101027146

When Megan Brouwer went hiking with her husband and five-year-old son in Karijini National Park she was concerned about spraining her ankle — instead she was bitten by a deadly snake.
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Sun 29 Jan, 2023 7:53 am

From the Tasmanian Advocate
A man aged in his sixties has died after a suspected snake bite east of Brisbane.
It's believed a brown snake bit his hand at a private property at Kensington Grove just before 10am on Saturday.

The man was in a critical condition when paramedics arrived but he later died.
Police are not treating the death as suspicious and will prepare a report for the coroner.
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Sun 10 Sep, 2023 2:40 pm

From ABC

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-10/ ... /102837214

A man in his 60s has died after being bitten by a suspected brown snake as he tried to uncoil it from his friend's leg near Mackay in northern Queensland.
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby madpom » Mon 11 Sep, 2023 6:39 pm

Out of interest: what does it take to make gaiters 'snakeproof'. Is there a specific gsm recommended for the canvas or what?
User avatar
madpom
Atherosperma moschatum
Atherosperma moschatum
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri 03 Jul, 2015 6:41 am
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: routeguides.co.nz
Region: New Zealand

Re: snake bite

Postby Scrambler » Mon 11 Sep, 2023 9:50 pm

There's no hard evidence on gaiters: the science is with blue jeans and rattlesnakes.

The protection is that snakes bite as if what they can see is skin. They want to land the tips of their fangs under the skin so an air gap under heavy fabric around your ankles means that a bit over 1/2 the time they miss you and just kill the gaiters (or jeans). Assuming the rather Mythbusters scientific test holds up in the real world with Aussie snakes.

Thinking that through it would be mass (heavier) and resistance to penetration (a goldilocks number?) Remember that only one fabric- denim- has actual science so the rest is just guesswork.

The main thing is the air gap: don't go for skintight stretch gaiters for snake protection.
Last edited by Scrambler on Tue 12 Sep, 2023 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scrambler
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon 09 Jan, 2023 8:14 am
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Mon 11 Sep, 2023 10:17 pm

madpom wrote:Out of interest: what does it take to make gaiters 'snakeproof'. Is there a specific gsm recommended for the canvas or what?


Plenty of products on the market
Just don’t get bit above the gaiter

https://snakeprotex.com/
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Scrambler » Tue 12 Sep, 2023 7:03 am

I'm not sure I completely trust a company that tells me their gaiters are scientifically tested for protection against "the world's most venomous creatures" but has actually tested against accidental needle exposure. Snakeprotex gaiters are really Needleprotex gaiters. And can be overcome with 2kg of force, per their web page (although they do say 20N).

Per my comment above, the only snakebite protection research is with denim, and it is the air gap that works not the difficulty of planting the fangs.

I don't know (because no-one has done research) whether a stiffer or a softer fabric works better than denim. If the snake IS trying to penetrate the skin, maybe it will just get a better grip and push harder if it doesn't get through. These factors would eliminate the air gap, so it is possible that harder-to-puncture fabrics would be less protective in the real world.

If you REALLY want "evidence based" protection, wear jeans.

The recent death highlights the evidence on snakebite deaths: it is the second person involved who is most likely to die. Snakes usually bite to chase people away. They bite to kill only if attacked. Of course "attacked" could mean accidentally stood on.

The second person is trying to catch and kill the snake- or in this recent case remove the snake from someone else. The warning worked on the first person, but the second needs to be stopped for the snake to survive: do or die. The snake will envenomate, with meaning.

All the advice to stop, back away has good real-world evidence. And is more protective than any gaiter.
Scrambler
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon 09 Jan, 2023 8:14 am
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby myrtlegirl » Thu 14 Sep, 2023 9:32 am

I've long held the theory that the venom has less chance of killing me than the fright of being bitten. The recent case in Qld where a bloke unwrapped a snake from someone's leg proves it.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-14/ ... /102854318
myrtlegirl
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed 06 Jan, 2010 3:40 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Female

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Thu 14 Sep, 2023 4:17 pm

Interesting
Thanks for the update Myrtlegirl
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Sun 17 Sep, 2023 10:09 am

Interesting story on the First Taipan Antivenom

From ABC

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-17/ ... /102860834


Bruce Stringer was just 10 years old when his brush with death catapulted him into the medical history books.

It was November 1955 when, growing up in Cairns, young Bruce and his carefree school mates ran around without shoes, exploring the long grass and picturesque swimming holes.
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: snake bite

Postby Overlandman » Wed 20 Mar, 2024 11:17 am

From ABC

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-20/ ... /103608784

Paramedics have confirmed the death of a man who suffered multiple snake bites in a North Queensland backyard.

Queensland Ambulance Services (QAS) were called to the suburb of Deeragun, one of Townsville's northernmost suburbs, on Tuesday afternoon after 3:00pm.

They found the man, 47, in cardiac arrest with multiple snake bites to his left arm.

Update

The ABC understands Jerromy Brookes, 47, was bitten after catching and bagging a snake at a childcare centre.

7 news said he was not a professional snake handler.
Rip :(

Update

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-21/ ... /103615538

No first aid after being bitten, drove himself home.
Snake was only 30cm long
Sad to read. OLM
Whatever, Wherever, Whenever
Overlandman
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sun 13 Nov, 2011 5:22 pm
Location: Tasmania
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Previous

Return to Bushwalking Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests