COVID-19 - General discussion

[Neo]

I see that so far Aussies have been a bit passive, a bit 'hoardy' and currently compliant.

If the poop really hits, many will get out to isolate, but most are more comfortable within their four walls rather than camping.

[andrewa]

The way to reduce infection rate is to minimise person to person contact.

From my recent observations in my geographical area of life, people actually seem to be accepting of that, and being socially well distanced. But there are the *&^%$#@!, and fortunately I haven’t yet had to speak with them professionally, but imho they really need to get fined big time, and media disgraced.

As for bushwalking. I, personally, could easily do a trip to the Alpine area with absolutely no personal contact except for the person I went with, and I’m sure that most in this forum could do the same.

Sadly, the DHs, even though likely to be small in number, will result in closure of Nat Parks etc, coz it just takes a small group to bugger everything else up....imagine 10 mates meeting at Cleve Cole for a weekend bushwalk? I can see this sort of thing happening, but it is just So not appropriate. Huts need to be nailed shut to prevent this. Sadly , easier for Parks to just close Nat Parks than close individual huts.

So, to the original question, I’m all for it, but prob will be limited, or deleted, so not happening.

A

[mikeRsyd]

No camping in NSW parks. Last week and the week before bouddi camp was full, lots of car camping Taj Mahal set ups. Old ford reserve in megalong valley was also full week before these with mainly car campers having social gatherings. I can see why they closed them.

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[wildwanderer]

I think closing camp grounds is sensible. To many people in a small area.

Closing national parks, en masse is not sensible. There is plenty of space for social distancing.

Exercise is very important for physical and mental health both of which are fundamental to a strong immune system.

Alowing spaces for outdoor recreation is also important for the well being of family units. We are seeing domestic violence and injuries resulting from excess alcohol consumption rise significantly during this crisis as people spend a lot of time indoors together. Some families manage being cooped up indoors together well, others not well.

I'm all for banning groups and individuals loitering in indoor spaces like shopping centres etc.

I think any gathering or activity outdoor or indoor should be banned if those attending are not living together.

However individuals and family units sharing the same living space must be allowed to exercise and spend time in the outdoors with enforceable social distancing from other family units/individuals.

If mates are organizing 10 person bushwalks then report and fine them. However I suspect this would be very minimal. All clubs I'm aware of have suspended group bushwalks and rightly so.

[Biggles]

"However individuals and family units sharing the same living space must be allowed to exercise and spend time in the outdoors with enforceable social distancing from other family units/individuals."

Nobody made a rule that forbids family units from walking together for exercise, and they can be seen every day. Separating a close family (mum, dad, 3 kids and the dog...) would introduce angst and resistance in the children and the parents -- there will be enough of that coming on now and in future weeks!

Social distancing is relaxed for family unit walks, which is why you will see couples walking together, with their kids, on foot or by bike, that's fine, go for it. When two or greater (multiples) family units come together, not in the same household, that's when the rule of social distancing comes into play.

No prohibition has been made forbidding exercise outdoors near home, and this is essential, daily, just that you do not do it all day. Australians are very accustomed to a freewheeling, go-where-we-please mindset which is very much a part of the rich social fabric we take for granted, and without restrictions. These vast rules of authority and the accompanying monetary penalty for ignoring or flouting them, is proof enough that this is not an emergency, but an event that threatens life itself.

National Parks, and parks generally are closed for a good reason. You cannot guarantee not ever meeting another person or persons within a large national park, anywhere, irrespective of how remote or 'touristy' they are. How's that? Lots of other people, fed up and frustrated, just like you, have the same idea to go there to escape and walk around. That's the logic behind closing them.

The Social Distancing rule is underpinned by one simple yet brutally honest theory: you must assume everybody close by is infected, and is therefore a risk. Laugh it off if you want to, but that's the way it is, and the path we must follow.

[wayno]

in lockdown you go into a bubble of people who you will be sharing accommodation with. you are allowed to be in close contact with the people in your bubble while in lockdown...

[wildwanderer]

"However individuals and family units sharing the same living space must be allowed to exercise and spend time in the outdoors with enforceable social distancing from other family units/individuals."

Nobody made a rule that forbids family units from walking together for exercise, and they can be seen every day. Separating a close family (mum, dad, 3 kids and the dog...) would introduce angst and resistance in the children and the parents -- there will be enough of that coming on now and in future weeks!

I think we are on the same page here. I.e that family units or individuals sharing the same living space should continue to be allowed to exercise and gather together.

National Parks, and parks generally are closed for a good reason. You cannot guarantee not ever meeting another person or persons within a large national park, anywhere, irrespective of how remote or 'touristy' they are. How's that? Lots of other people, fed up and frustrated, just like you, have the same idea to go there to escape and walk around. That's the logic behind closing them.

This I disagree with. If we are talking risk then being in a closed indoor space like a super market or shopping centre, apartment lift or a bus etc is a much greater risk. Parks are large spaces with good space for social distancing. My thought is that the negatives of closing parks and outdoor spaces such as increased inter family stress and resulting negative outcomes outweigh the very small risk of spreading the virus in a large open outdoor space with large distances between people. Where outdoor spaces are too crowded to allow for social distancing they have needed to be closed such as Bondi and that I think is reasonable and appropriate.

..Lots of other people, fed up and frustrated, just like you..

I’m not fed up or frustrated. I get on great with the people I live with even during this challenging time. However not all people are the same and the reports of increased family violence and alcohol abuse are increasing so thats why I think, we should keep open outdoor spaces where the risk is minimal. Spending time in outdoor spaces has a calming and positive mental health affect and can contribute to better outcomes for families spending a lot of time indoors together.

[slparker]

@biggles
I agree with your sentiment but I would suggest that we ought to go further.

Don’t just assume that other people are infected, assume that you’re infected but don’t know it yet.

Then you can truly see the importance of social distancing and strict hygiene.

[Warin]

@biggles
I agree with your sentiment but I would suggest that we ought to go further.

Don’t just assume that other people are infected, assume that you’re infected but don’t know it yet.

Then you can truly see the importance of social distancing and strict hygiene.

And a face mask. It is one thing you can do to reduce the chances of you infecting others.

[Biggles]

@biggles
I agree with your sentiment but I would suggest that we ought to go further.

Don’t just assume that other people are infected, assume that you’re infected but don’t know it yet.
Then you can truly see the importance of social distancing and strict hygiene.
And a face mask. It is one thing you can do to reduce the chances of you infecting others.

No, I'm not infected, and we are tested routinely.

The recommendation for a mask in public areas is only made for people like carers or those who have been in direct contact with people symptomatic, or suspected of having COVID-19. There is some benefit for older, more vulnerable people to wear a mask if they are in contact in a public place, but this contact as far as I know is being very much scaled down (e.g. locked down) to protect this frail demographic e.g. nursing homes and excursions for residents. This is certainly the case with my mum's nursing home: nobody from the family is permitted in the Home, but we can still telephone her.

Outside of the recommendation of who should be using a mask and why, which is widely known, masks and gloves in public are not required; sure, there is no harm in doing it, but it isn't necessary, and more importantly, supplies should be kept for those people who genuinely need these PPE, e.g. hospitals, emergency clinics, etc.

A bit odd and unsettling, on that point, to mention that raw materials for surgical face masks and gowns come from a specific place in China -- Wuhan.

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

And a face mask. It is one thing you can do to reduce the chances of you infecting others.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.ne ... e/12088314

There is no "one" thing, but if there was handwashing and distancing are far more important than masks

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[Moondog55]

Masks are being made here in Australia, I think I saw that on the ABC news; that they are ramping up production to 3 full shifts a day and that the military had been co-opted to run machines because they couldn't get staff into the country town where the factory is. Nothing wrong with home sewn masks for general use to provide some droplet protection.
Wash after use and reuse.
2 layers good 3 layers better 4 layers very hard to breath through.
Salt impregnation of a cotton or poly/cotton mask is said to provide good protection
Social distancing seems to break down in supermarkets and I haven't yet braved Bunnings so we are working on the premise that every little bit helps

[Biggles]

Masks are being made here in Australia, I think I saw that on the ABC news; that they are ramping up production to 3 full shifts a day and that the military had been co-opted to run machines because they couldn't get staff into the country town where the factory is.

That would be the factory in Shepparton (?).
Yes, engineers in the Army working on machines there. There are only two skilled operators, and there are millions of masks to be made. The mind boggles!
Salt (saline) impregnation (and nasal flushing) can sometimes be useful in cases of sinus-inflammation/influenza, but it is not effective against COVID-19.

I'm heading home for Easter next Wednesday for a few days.

[Moondog55]

There is a peer reviewed Nature article of the efficacy of salt saturated fibre masks a week or two ago, it seems to work by dehydrating the viroid and making them non viable by lipid wall destruction. If I can fine it I'll post the link

[slparker]

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs ... s/12098158

The ABC take on the question.

[andrewa]

The decision will be taken away from us.

Mornington Peninsula beaches have now been closed, so no swimming, dog walking, fishing, boat launching. Point Nepean Nat park closed. Yes, first world problem, but it will be about 2 shakes of a lamb’s tail, and all NPs will be closed.

A

[Walk_fat boy_walk]

There are so many people not taking distancing seriously. Unfortunately governments are going to need to take (more of) a nanny state approach to account for the lowest common denominator. I can't see how we'll avoid a proper lockdown at this rate. Even just going for a walk on a local track while practicing good distancing would be off the cards under that scenario and all of this will be a moot point.

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[Baka Dasai]

Unfortunately governments are going to need to take (more of) a nanny state approach to account for the lowest common denominator.

This is exactly it. Some of the restrictions don't make sense on their own, but in that context they do.

[andrewa]

I think we just need to accept the stance. Don’t go out unless you really need to.

A

[Xplora]

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/bushwalk-coronavirus/12098158

The ABC take on the question.

The message from this was to stay local and avoid contact. Local meaning you do not have to stop for fuel or food. My local park is at my gate literally. I have all of Bogong High Plains to walk but the message is to stay away from huts. We had planned a trip to KNP but that will be shelved but I don't see any reason why we cannot walk and camp out locally. Our walks are usually off the main tracks and we are practised in avoiding people anyway. We live quite isolated and can go weeks without contact with neighbours but I am now self isolating for two weeks after spending a week in Sydney. Not required but it is the right thing to do. I self isolated on the stream yesterday. Fishing is still good. I feel sorry for you guys in the city. Hoping AndrewA is managing with his practise. What thoughts on catching the virus and once recovered (if) getting on with life.

[wayno]

authorities in nz are emphasising only moderate day walks, they want zero risk of anyone needing rescuing and having to involve rescue services.

[Warin]

In the South African lockdown, no alcohol, no dog walks... there is always someone worse off.

[wayno]

china there are checkpoints everywhere and you need a good reason to get through them
parts of Italy you need a form signed by authorities to be able to leave your property.
theres a reason its called a "lockdown"

in NZ the police arent consistent, we're being told they will be friendly but people are travelling on approved essential business and the police have yelled at one of them to go home... depends which source you listen to as to what you can do... its not clear how far away from your home you can exercise, it all comes down to which cop stops you as to what you can do and they arent always interested in valid excuses... the prime ministers husband was telling people it was ok to go travelling to go fishing when the PM herself was saying it wasnt, lots of assumptions by people... 50 boats have parked up with people at great barrier island for the lockdown and are using the local shop for supplies, the island has a very limited supply of food for a small population and a very limited ability to resupply at present. people think, oh yeah that would be a good idea without really thinking through what it could mean for other people, because services arent functioning anything like holiday season... garage mechanics and panelbeaters can only repair vehicles that are needed for essential services... yeah ok you may have a reliable vehicle and be a good driver but you can still get hit by someone who isnt... and the hospitals are trying to clear the deck completely for corona.... every person needing hospital treatment is resources being diverted that could be used to treat covid patient.. it all adds up... you drink too much, you're more likely to have an accident in or out of a car... covid doesnt give a stuff about your wants or needs.. we've had it pretty good in the west living unrestricted lives since world war 2... we can come to regard it as a right by default because we havent known any different, most people in history and a lot of people around the world today have never had it so good.
expert estimates of what the death toll is going to be, some saying it could be worse than the spanish flu which killed between 30-50 million, reality hasnt hit home down under yet

[GPSGuided]

What a long thread!

Out bush, effectively zero risk of infection. But, how do you know you are not in the incubation period before your walk?

Amongst COVID-19 test positive cases, around 50% are asymptomatic ie. Potential transmission to others without any sign nor anyone knowing.

Hospital system will be more than maxed out, don’t do anything that may add additional load to the whole healthcare system. In Spain, they are taking patients older than 65 off the respirators to make room for younger patients and sedating those older patients to let them gasp last breaths without too much suffering. Don’t force our system to that level.

Home is the best thing we can all do to assist in this global health crisis. The less the interactions the earlier this virus will disappear from our midst.

[Warin]

Amongst COVID-19 test positive cases, around 50% are asymptomatic ie. Potential transmission to others without any sign nor anyone knowing.

The only place that tested the entire population, Vo Italy, found half the positive cases had no signs of the virus. It was a total ~3% of the total population, they isolated them for 2 weeks. Then tested the entire population at the end of those 2 weeks and ... not quite 0% but very close to it.

To me either;
[*]Test everyone to find out who has it and requires isolation. Not enough test kits for this so...

[*]Assume everyone has the virus (even if there are no signs), isolate everyone for 2 weeks.

[*]Or the virus will continue to infect the population. And this is what is happening.

[slparker]

There was a photo of a rescue at Beechworth gorge on Saturday when a walker fell down the gorge. 7 rescuers were involved, all within 1 metre of another person.

Each one of those rescuers has now been exposed to a potential transmission because of the actions of someone out walking.

So each time you take a risk in the bush it is now taking a risk with other people’s lives. So please consider the type of risk you are taking when you go into the bush. The risk is no longer just your own skin.

[wayno]

someone just died on the pacific crest trail,... body extraction from a remote location for first responders...

[Lindsay]

I'm fortunate as I live on a few acres outside town. Plenty of room to walk and still be isolated. I'm also getting a few jobs that needed doing out of the way. Even though my overseas walk has been postponed I have nothing to complain about.

[north-north-west]

Have I offended someone or just entered some strange eddy in the space/time continuum? There are half a dozen threads I replied to this morning - including this one - but my comments are nowhere to be seen.

[Moondog55]

Have I offended someone or just entered some strange eddy in the space/time continuum? There are half a dozen threads I replied to this morning - including this one - but my comments are nowhere to be seen.

You have encountered an eddy in the space-time continuum and you are now doomed to repeating the last 3 weeks for eternity and beyond. Actually a couple of my own comments seem to have got lost also, perhaps a small packet loss in the eatherium