Bushwalk Australia

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:05 pm**

Hey all,

I've recently been drawn in to the UL walking style and I am slowly getting my gear sorted out. The main item that I currently need to sort out is my sleeping bag.
I am trying to find one that is very light (500g or so is the target), small and warm enough so that I can use it most of the year in NSW. It is quite rare that I will be camping where temperatures get below 0c. My plan is to get a 2/3 season bag for when temperatures are warmer, and if necessary, add a warm liner to handle the winter temperatures. Do you think this is a workable plan?

I was recommended a Western Mountaineering Highlite bag by a friend. It sure fits the weight and size specs, but it is rated to 2c which may be on the light side. I guess with a liner it would be fine, but I would expect to be able to use it without a liner or an excess of clothes down to 2c. Is this a reasonable assumption?

Besides the WM bag, does anyone have any other recommendations that might fit the bill?

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:33 pm**

Would you consider a top quilt? There are some good ones out there that would fit your requirements.

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:34 pm**

Any quilt, Read this: http://hikinginfinland.com/2010/11/quilt-101.html

Zpacks, katabiatic etc.

Aim for 32F

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:36 pm**

I think you will find that any bag in or around 500gms total is going to be rated at that temp. To give you some idea, you need around 500gms of 700-800 loft down to get a temp rating around -2, -3 or -4. You then need a shell and baffles.

If you need a bag with a lower rating you have to gain weight even with down.

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:52 pm**

simonm and icefest - I have considered a quilt, but I currently only use a close cell foam roll as ground insulation. Would that be warm enough to use with a quilt or would I have to get an inflatable thermarest style bed roll? Also, my other concern with a quilt is keeping my head warm. Do do quilts usually cover your head, or do you need another item, such as a jacket, to provide warmth to your head?

Giddy_up - Thanks for the advice.

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:56 pm**

Allchin09 wrote:simonm and icefest - I have considered a quilt, but I currently only use a close cell foam roll as ground insulation. Would that be warm enough to use with a quilt or would I have to get an inflatable thermarest style bed roll?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see it making much of a difference as a sleeping bag provides essentially zero insulation for the part you're laying on anyway. That said, a warmer mat is probably the most important way of increasing your comfort under cold conditions.

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:05 pm**

I have used CCF with quilts and normal bags, the main difference is stickiness due to sweat. A SB insulates little beneath you. (as strider said)
I gave up on CCF for comfort and then, realised they can be warmer too. (If you disagree, fine, let's not argue again)

Most quilts will not cover your head. You can get a down hood (extra camp warmth) for colder nights.

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:15 pm**

icefest wrote:I have used CCF with quilts and normal bags, the main difference is stickiness due to sweat. A SB insulates little beneath you. (as strider said)
I gave up on CCF for comfort and then, realised they can be warmer too. (If you disagree, fine, let's not argue again)

Most quilts will not cover your head. You can get a down hood (extra camp warmth) for colder nights.

Bit new here so may be a stupid question, but can you buy down hoods separately or do people typically zip them off down jackets?

Thanks,

Ryan

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:33 pm**

Zpacks make one, Katabiatic make one, and you can make your own.

Search for 'zpacks' OR 'katabiatic' AND 'down hood' in the search engine of your choice.

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:46 pm**

icefest wrote:Zpacks make one, Katabiatic make one, and you can make your own.

Search for 'zpacks' OR 'katabiatic' AND 'down hood' in the search engine of your choice.

Cool

thanks icefest. I think I would probably prefer a down beanie though.

Posted: **Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:57 pm**

vorpal wrote:
icefest wrote:Zpacks make one, Katabiatic make one, and you can make your own.

Search for 'zpacks' OR 'katabiatic' AND 'down hood' in the search engine of your choice.

Cool thanks icefest. I think I would probably prefer a down beanie though.

http://www.blackrockgear.com/hat_splash.html

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 12:04 am**

Yeah - been eyeing those beanies. They sure look nice

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:56 am**

When your laying on the insulation and it's fully compressed it's effectivly doing nothing anyway. It's just the shell material.

You should be able to find a great quilt or even a bag like the ones from zpacks that will do those temps and be under 500g.
For reference I have a Hammock Gear top quilt, M50 outer shell (highly windproof), 7D inner (More breathable than M50 but still UL) with is 55" wide at the top and tapers down from there. Sewn 25" high footbox and the quilt has 10.5oz (300grams) of 900 fill down. Total weight is only 440 grams. It's one sweet quilt and i've used that in the snow to -4°C but that was on an short neoair with some 1/4" CCF foam. Being a quilt if it's warmer (Likely in NSW) you just drape it loosely over you or stick a foot or two out.
The high quality down is still just down. Anything over 750g will be a good start as you will need less for the same amount off puff. What has evolved in the last few years are the super UL fabrics, Like I said down weigh's what it does, for XX warmth you need XX amount to fill the required baffled size or space. Nothing major has changed there in a while. BUT the UL fabrics are what is seeing bag or quilt weight drop. Depends on the fabrics and quilt sizes but you can easily save around 100g from using say a 7D shell fabric compared to a 30D fabric. 2-3 years ago 30D was UL !!!
I can't see quilt fabrics with a nylon base getting any lighter though as it would just be too fragile and not downproof enough most likely.
Mostly I'm seeing the cottage guys in the US jump on this UL fabric big time, but a few "Names" are really honing in on it too.
When it's really cold the mat or ground insulation you choose will most likely play a large factor in your warmth too, that would go for a quilt or full bag either way.

Ahh the Blackrock beanie......I love mine. Gotta keep that ed warm with a quilt having no hood.

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 12:03 pm**

I love my RAB Neutrino 200 at about 600g. Picked it up for about $200 at http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/. I think it was 60/40 fill, so heading towards the top bag philosophy.

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 2:56 pm**

exped ultralite bags, pick the weight of down 300 500 or 700 down
well made bags, i've got the 300 but havent gone down to zero in it, not sure how cold ive been in it exactly, between 6 and ten degrees. was great.. i've also got the 500 in the lite range. warm as toast at 4 degrees.
http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage_int.nsf

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 3:59 pm**

I had the Highlite but now I use the WM Summerlite.
About 550g for the 6' version.
That works at around 0c with a base layer, T top and leggings.
You may need a wool hat ans socks to start and or for the night but it will work like that.
Full zip, so it can be opened up quilt style and I can layer inside with puffy jacket and trousers to go down to about -6 with it.
I do have a couple of quilts but prefer to use the bag.
I still turn and toss a bit so yes you do compress the bottom layer but it comes up when you turn.

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 5:07 pm**

Allchin09 wrote:simonm and icefest - I have considered a quilt, but I currently only use a close cell foam roll as ground insulation. Would that be warm enough to use with a quilt or would I have to get an inflatable thermarest style bed roll? Also, my other concern with a quilt is keeping my head warm. Do do quilts usually cover your head, or do you need another item, such as a jacket, to provide warmth to your head?

Giddy_up - Thanks for the advice.

Some guys do get longer bags to pull over their head but I prefer separate head insulation especially since I have very little of my own natural insulation up top. If you are looking for a lightweight top quilt I can highly recommend Tim at Enlightened Equipment - I have no commercial connection with him but I do own one of his quilts, and received exceptional service when there was a slight issue.

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 5:50 pm**

+1 for Tim and enlightened equipment. He makes brillant quits and they are a great design.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:38 pm**

I think it's important to extend the thought process to "sleep/clothing system" rather than just sleeping bag recommendation.

I use a home made quilt at about 600-650g for ski touring. I just sleep in all my clothes underneath it....the clothing I take reflects the ambient temps more than the quilt. The quilt design covers my head ( see Roger Caffin's site about design). So, for this weekend on Bogong I'll sleep in RAB neutrino jkt and Montbell thermawrap pants, and be cozy . For Autumn/later Spring out of the snow, I'd prob just take thermawrap pants and a lighter jkt eg Bozeman Mtn Works Cocoon parka. For summer, I have a ~ 400g quilt, and use a Montbell Exlight down jkt, but no thermal pants. Similarly, I adjust the sleeping mat according to need, from Exped down mat for mid winter in snow, to torso length Insulmat air filled 300g mat for summer. So 2 quilts cover all my requirements, and the former would be fine for all, except I wanted to make a lighter one.

Andrew A

Posted: **Thu 26 Sep, 2013 11:49 pm**

Hi Alex,
I use a WM Highlight in the Blue Mtns for about half the year. It's a beautiful bag. When it starts to get cold I then add my down jacket and down pants. (Carry the down jacket for campsite use anyway.)
And then, when it gets really chilly I start to carry my winter sleeping bag. Up until recently I used a Marmot Helium. But it was one of the things that was stolen so have just replaced it with a WM Versalite. This is a very nice bag!
I think you'll find the most people end up with a summer bag and a winter bag.
Karl has a collection of WM bags and he brought most of them on ebay. I know he is pretty happy with them. So that may be an option. :wink:

Don't rush into buying anything. Look around. Quite frequently the US sites go on sale. Use a shipping company like Shipito to avoid import restrictions.
Some of the English companies like http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/ and http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/ are probably worth having a look at too!

Posted: **Fri 27 Sep, 2013 12:49 am**

andrewa wrote:I think it's important to extend the thought process to "sleep/clothing system" rather than just sleeping bag recommendation.

I use a home made quilt at about 600-650g for ski touring. I just sleep in all my clothes underneath it....the clothing I take reflects the ambient temps more than the quilt. The quilt design covers my head ( see Roger Caffin's site about design). So, for this weekend on Bogong I'll sleep in RAB neutrino jkt and Montbell thermawrap pants, and be cozy . For Autumn/later Spring out of the snow, I'd prob just take thermawrap pants and a lighter jkt eg Bozeman Mtn Works Cocoon parka. For summer, I have a ~ 400g quilt, and use a Montbell Exlight down jkt, but no thermal pants. Similarly, I adjust the sleeping mat according to need, from Exped down mat for mid winter in snow, to torso length Insulmat air filled 300g mat for summer. So 2 quilts cover all my requirements, and the former would be fine for all, except I wanted to make a lighter one.

Andrew A

Andrew what is the rating of your summer quilt?

Posted: **Fri 27 Sep, 2013 7:40 am**

Simon, by recollection I put about 200g of 900 loft down in it. It is box walled construction, with about 5 cm of loft when laid flat (not double)......It doesn't really have a temperature rating as such, but I use it in summer. Used It in NZ down to about 10c, with the Montbell Exlight down jkt.

A

Posted: **Fri 27 Sep, 2013 8:21 am**

Thanks Andrew, I should have guessed you made it yourself.

Posted: **Sun 29 Sep, 2013 6:15 pm**

Double post.

Posted: **Sun 29 Sep, 2013 6:16 pm**

Have a look at the Mont Prolite 250 sleeping bag, weighs 540grams and is comfort rated between 6 - 0c.

Posted: **Tue 01 Oct, 2013 3:13 pm**

Doesn't Roger Caffin recommend a lightweight sleeping bag plus a quilt to get down to the lower temperatures?
For me ( IF I was an ultralighter LOL) that would cover most of the bases, a very light down bag [I've used a quilt recently and found it not as warm as a SB of the same spec's] with a larger cut quilt for the winter

Posted: **Tue 01 Oct, 2013 5:07 pm**

I think that Roger's main reason for doing so is that he shares the quilt with his wife.
Because most couples like different level of insulation . a separate bag and a quilt on top seems to me to be a good solution.

I thought of using the Summerlite with a synthetic quilt on top and size/comfort wise it works but in the end I opted to wear puffy top and bottom inside the bag.
That way I go directly from camp mode to sleep mode without losing heat stripping.
.Works well for nature breaks too.

Posted: **Mon 07 Oct, 2013 8:37 pm**

Moondog55 wrote:Doesn't Roger Caffin recommend a lightweight sleeping bag plus a quilt to get down to the lower temperatures?
For me ( IF I was an ultralighter LOL) that would cover most of the bases, a very light down bag [I've used a quilt recently and found it not as warm as a SB of the same spec's] with a larger cut quilt for the winter

When they went hiking in Europe with expected temps down to or below 0C Roger and his wife took two summer-weight quilts. I believe they had 300g of down each.

Posted: **Mon 07 Oct, 2013 8:48 pm**

Joomy wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:Doesn't Roger Caffin recommend a lightweight sleeping bag plus a quilt to get down to the lower temperatures?
For me ( IF I was an ultralighter LOL) that would cover most of the bases, a very light down bag [I've used a quilt recently and found it not as warm as a SB of the same spec's] with a larger cut quilt for the winter

When they went hiking in Europe with expected temps down to or below 0C Roger and his wife took two summer-weight quilts. I believe they had 300g of down each.

Didn't they share a double quilt?

Posted: **Tue 08 Oct, 2013 12:34 am**

icefest wrote:
Joomy wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:Doesn't Roger Caffin recommend a lightweight sleeping bag plus a quilt to get down to the lower temperatures?
For me ( IF I was an ultralighter LOL) that would cover most of the bases, a very light down bag [I've used a quilt recently and found it not as warm as a SB of the same spec's] with a larger cut quilt for the winter

When they went hiking in Europe with expected temps down to or below 0C Roger and his wife took two summer-weight quilts. I believe they had 300g of down each.

Didn't they share a double quilt?

No it was definitely two summer quilts, or rather hoodless sleeping bag with 3/4 zips a la zpacks, designed for solo use but they "snuggle" and double them up in the coldest weather. Check out the BPL article, it's got a very detailed gear list section and I've found myself consulting it constantly while trying to sort out my own gear.

Bushwalk Australia

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