Help With New Sleeping System

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Looking for some help from the UL brain trust here.

Have recently updated my sleeping system, and on a test run last night, found myself quite cold. Looking for some pointers, otherwise I might have to rethink my new quilt.

I'm generally a cold sleeper - I'm 180cm and 60kg, so there's no extra insulation there! I'd guess I start to become uncomfortable at least 5 degrees C warmer than the "comfort limit" of most gear.

Old gear:
-5 Down Sleeping Bag & Black Wolf self inflating mat - about 2.2kg total.
In theory, this gear should have been good down to about -5, but because I'm a cold sleeper I could never get down to this. I spent one night with this setup at 0 degrees while camping at Echo Point, and it was just barely manageable.

New gear:
20F (-7) Zpacks Long Quilt & Neo Air All Seasons - about 1.3kg total
In theory, because of the slightly better bag and much improved R value of the mat, I should be easily comfortable down to about -2 degrees.

Last night I gave it a trial run, and at 4am the temperature was 12 degrees and I had to come inside and climb into bed with the trouble and strife because I was so cold. I'm a little concerned that maybe this new lightweight kit isn't really going to deliver the claimed temperatures and wont be suitable for me down to 0 degrees (which is what I need). Last night was by no means ideal - I didn't have a particularly large dinner (which helps warmth overnight), and went to bed quite warm so only had jocks and a cotton singlet on. Used the bag in quilt mode initially, but then zipped it right up into a bag. Didn't wear a beanie either.

I probably should have gone to bed with more clothes on and the quilt fully open with feet out, because then I could have zipped it up and stayed warm. I got cold, and then couldn't warm up.

I'm sure with a big meal, a beanie and some thermals I would have got down a lot lower, but I'm not sure how much. Surely with a 4.7R Mat and brand new -7 quilt, I should have been comfortable at 12 degrees regardless of what extra clothing I was wearing.

Any advice?
Will thermals/beanie/warm clothes really make that much difference and get me right down to freezing (or just below) comfortably?
Anything else I can do to increase the efficiency of the system?

Lastly, I've noticed my new Zpacks quilt is quite puffy (well stuffed baffle height) in the leg and especially foot area (where I'm generally always warm) but the further up the quilt (as it gets wider) the height gets lower and I can start to see cold spots if I hold it up to the light. It's almost like they use exactly the same amount of fill weight in each baffle, but because each baffled section gets longer further up the bag, it starts to get really light on down in the top few baffles. The top of my body was definitely very cold, while below the waist was toasty warm. Anyone else noticed this with the Zpacks bags?

[icefest]

Did you shake out the bag before use? When you did, did you shake the down to the middle so you have extra loft on top?

You should really wear a beanie/toque/hood to get the full warmth.

[Franco]

"Didn't wear a beanie either"
Classic mistake.
You need a similar amount of insulation for every part of your body in fact many would argue that the head is more important than any other part of your body ( the brain is the last organ that the body attempts to keep warm. At that stage the circulation to the rest of your body has stopped...)

[Onestepmore]

I think you answered a lot of your questions already!
I sleep cold too, and wear a light mont bell down jacket over my long sleeved merino top to bed in winter. Always a polar fleece or down beanie as soon as it starts to get cold at night. Wear gloves to bed, and wool socks. I also have down pants to wear over thermal legs if needed. I'm by no means an UL'er but use different layering systems to sleep as I do for walking.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Yes, definitely lofted the bag fully before use and pushed the loft to the middle section. It is stored hung, so not much lofting required.

Yes Franco, I understand beanies and head warmth are crucial and regularly use one in a tent, but it was a 20 degree day and only got down to 12C. But surely adding a beanie won't get me down another 12C. That's a change of almost 30F?

Plus my head was quite hot. As were my legs and feet. Was just my torso which was cold.

From my OP:

Surely with a 4.7R Mat and brand new -7 quilt, I should have been comfortable at 12 degrees regardless of what extra clothing I was wearing.

[forest]

No idea. I would say you should have been toasty. That's a fairly warm quilt / bag you have there, and the mat's obviously fine too.
I've done similar temps with my set-up but on a neoair (not all season) and with a lighter fill quilt, was fine. No beanie at 12°C, I'd be hot like you at those warmer temps.
I don;t find I need a hat of some type until it get's quite a bit colder. But I always have one on hand as that comes with using a quilt.

Your mat wasn't flat was it, or quite low on air. I recall reading a while ago that the neoairs are warmer if they are pumped up firmly ??
I would take that to mean they can be colder if low on air too ?? (Only to a certain point though, I think they hold an R value even if flat)

[vorpal]

Hmm, this has me a little concerned. I've just opted for a new sleeping system as well. I was going to get the Zpacks quilt but decided on the Katabatic Palisade, but Palisade is only rated at 30F (-1C). Also have a similar mat in the Neo Air xTherm.

Also similar characteristics. I'm a very cold sleeper, 172cm and 68kg. I'll have to let you know how I go when I get the quilt. However, I typically always sleep with thermals and a beanie.

Ryan

[photohiker]

I think we need to be realistic and prepared. When testing new sleeping gear, it would make better sense to start conservative and move in a less conservative direction once you have dialled in the capabilities of the new gear. If you already have a working sleeping system I suggest you change one thing at a time if at all possible.

Where did you set up, were you in a tent? What was the weather like? Windy as all heck if you did this anywhere near SA...

So, hopping into a new quilt in your jocks and cotton singlet is asking for it. Try again as soon as possible and start with the quilt zipped up, wear light thermals, socks and a beanie. Progressively peel these off and open the quilt if you find things too warm. This way you are conserving your core heat.

I have the zpacks 0C Regular Width Sleeping Bag, in Long and with an extra ounce of down in it. I use it mostly for hammock camping, but never been cold in that one, it's got a lot of loft. If I'm going to be cold, it's my feet, not my torso, so I always start with socks and remove them if things get too hot. I have the neoair XTherm mat which is higher rated R Value (5.7 vs 4.9) and lighter, go figure. Been happy on that mat in temps below -5C

If you wake up cold, best remedy is to stay in the bag, do some sit ups to generate heat. You'll be surprised how quickly you regain body heat this way. Doesn't work in survival situations so well because you're burning calories that will require replacing with food but fine for getting over a minor insulation deficiency now and then. I also haven't met anyone who can do situps while sleeping...

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Thanks everyone for your input so far.

Photohiker, you are right that I may have overlooked the effect of the wind. It was gusting to 70km/hr last night and while the tent is double wall (solid inner to about 3/4 of the way up) there was still quite a decent breeze through the tent which I guess I underestimated.

The other thing that could have played a part is that normally I would wake when starting to get cold and put on a fleece jumper etc. I have been sleeping very deeply lately because work rosters have been brutal, so perhaps by the time I finally stirred I was really quite cold-soaked and unable to warm up.

And perhaps a polypro top with a fleece jumper really does make a difference of 15 degrees C.

Am going to have another go next time it's forecast to get down below 10... But keep the feedback coming!!

BTW weighed the bag today. It came in 20g over spec, so definitely hasn't been under filled by accident.

[wayno]

dont overlook keeping your neck warm as well. a lot of blood runs just under the skin at the front of your neck that can potentially get cooled if its left exposed in the cold,

[wayno]

its a problem with permanently vented tents in the cold and wind, unlike a tent you can seal up, you cant retain any extra temperature in it, the vented tent has the same temp as the outside air temp and if you dont cover yourself properly in your sleeping system you've got wind chill on any exposed parts of your body as well... if the wind gets in under your quilt then you're a lot worse off than if you had it zipped up in a bag configuration... dont underate how much extra warmth a bag with a hood will give you, you're sealed in completely bar your face negating the wind chill or having to worry about exposed parts getting too cold... I'm happy stickign with a hooded bag in cold conditions, less faffing around, dont have to worry about trying to find your hat if you get woken up with the cold or readjusting a quilt or hoodless bag and items of cold to try and eliminate cold spots..

[ULWalkingPhil]

Never owned a zpack quilt. After reading your xomments on the filling. I dont think I will ever own one. I pirchased a few items from zpack lately and I am not all that impressed with the quality of workmanship.

[wayno]

i wonder about the owner of zpacks, he'd possibly be the first person to walk the te araroa trail in open toed sandals and socks, uneheard of. He must have wrecked a few pairs of socks if not his toes... seems a bit stupid light and *&%$#! minded to complete such a rough trail all the way in such minimalist footwear... at least hiis wife was sensible enough to wear shoes...

[vorpal]

Just recently purchased a couple roll top dry bags and a couple zip pouches from Zpacks, so will let you know how I find them when they arrive.

[icefest]

I ordered a custom pack from Zpacks 3 weeks ago, it is now in the post here.

[vorpal]

Ahh cool. I was also considering going UL with a Zpacks backpack, like the Arc Blast or something. Decided against it.

[Franco]

Back to head covering...
"But surely adding a beanie won't get me down another 12C."
Maybe you want to read again what I had posted :
"You need a similar amount of insulation for every part of your body in fact many would argue that the head is more important than any other part of your body"
A beanie is better than nothing but I don't know of a beanie that gives you the insulation of 5.7cm of down...
Note this line (IN RED) from the Z Pak site (TWICE):
"We recommend sizing up one length so that you have extra length to wrap around your head when it gets cold."
(this is on top of having some head insulation, not stated there but assumed that people already know that. The often misunderstood "cold feet ? put a hat on !" is not meant to suggest that you can avoid foot insulation by weraing a hat but that you should ALSO be wearing a hat otherwise yes you will be cold)

I am not telling you that that quilt will keep you warm at -7, what I am saying is that you need to see the quilt as part of a system and neck/head insulation is very much part of it.
Note that on EN testing the "manequin" at -7 (inside a hooded sleeping bag) is wearing a benie,thermal top and pants.

Note this comment from Ray Estrella a very prolific gear tester and quilt lover :
"Once I get below freezing I do like to use straps to keep the quilt wrapped around my body and keep any openings from bleeding off my precious heat. A high R-value pad is imperative, and I find a wider one helps a lot to keep the quilt in place with my bent-leg style. I also use a down balaclava with my cold weather quilts to keep my head as warm as the rest of me."



This was posted today at BPL :
you should absolutely be wearing a hat a(t) cooler temps if you want to keep warm ... and even more head insulation ...

from "The Hot Brain", MIT Press ...

Thermal Response to Cold

Cold does not exist as a physical entity in and of itself. It is defined as a lack of heat and is not a different form of energy. We are not "pierced" by the cold winds of winter. Cold is simply a sensation that results from heat loss. When humans are exposed to a cold environment, their skin cools and stimulates cutaneous cold receptors, which increase their firing rate as skin temperature decreases . This in turn activates neural pathways to produce superficial vasoconstriction, piloerection or "goose pimples," and possibly shivering. The superficial veins under the skin constrict, and blood returns from the limbs via deep veins, the venae comitantes. This venoconstriction contributes to the lowering of skin temperature, which reduces the temperature difference between the skin and the environment, thereby decreasing heat loss by radiation, conduction, and convection. In very cold weather, vasoconstriction is so effective that tissue insulation can be increased sixfold. This is equivalent to wearing a light wool business suit. Interestingly, the insulation of the head does not change with environmental temperature because cerebral blood flow is kept constant : at -4 C the amount of heat lost from the head is about half of that produced by the body at rest. It is wise to wear a hat in the winter.

[icefest]

Not wearing a hat/hood is the equivalent of having a house with 40cm of styrofoam insulation in the walls, and then leaving the windows open.

Why would you be surprised if the house was cold?

[wayno]

insulation of the head DOES change markedly with environmental temperature, because blood flow to and from the brain is subject to a massive change in the source of the blood flow.
primates differ from other mammals in how they cool the brain, most mammals have long noses packed full of blood vessels. when they are overheating the blood flow goes from the nose to the brain, the blood is cooled in the nose and helps cool the brain.
in primates our brains are too big for this to work, we would need an elephant trunk full of blood vessels to cool the brain.
in primates our skulls are full of small holes... when we are hot its one reason why your face goes so red, the skin on the scalp is flushed full of blood, the scalp sweats and the blood is cooled (except in very excessively hot conditions) as the sweat evaporates of the skin, the blood then flows straight through the skull via blood vessels running through the holes in the skill into the brain help cooling it with the cooler blood, part of the reason you can feel so instantly refreshed by pouring cold water on your scalp......
when we arent overheating , the blood flow through the scalp reverses and sweating stops to avoid the cooling action...

[Moondog55]

Wayno can you please post a couple of pix of these BV holes pleas

[wayno]

no I dont' have any, but this documentary explains the mechanism, its where I obtained the information from originally. it starts getting into it at about half way

[forest]

Never owned a zpack quilt. After reading your xomments on the filling. I dont think I will ever own one. I pirchased a few items from zpack lately and I am not all that impressed with the quality of workmanship.

Out of interest what was your issue and with zpacks gear. I have probably more than most people and can't fault mine. But I don't have a quilt of his as IMO the fill numbers seem a bit low to me.

Gees phil. Do others here know your a GG ambassador lol.

[photohiker]

Never owned a zpack quilt. After reading your xomments on the filling. I dont think I will ever own one. I pirchased a few items from zpack lately and I am not all that impressed with the quality of workmanship.

Out of interest what was your issue and with zpacks gear. I have probably more than most people and can't fault mine. But I don't have a quilt of his as IMO the fill numbers seem a bit low to me.

Gees phil. Do others here know your a GG ambassador lol.

I didn't know that. Should Phil have GG as an associated Organisation? What did you buy Phil, and what were your problems?

I've dealt with Jo Valesko (zPacks) several times. Good service, very well made cottage industry gear. If you think his quilts are underfilled, he will add extra at your request. When I ordered my bag I added extra at US$30 per ounce. I'm not sure that they are underfilled though:

900 Fill Power Down

900 Fill Power down means that one ounce of down should fill up to 900 cubic inches of space. Our 20 degree bag for example has a baffle height of 2.25", however it is filled with a calculated loft height of 2.925" (30% more than the baffle height) to account for any future loft loss. It will also have more than 2.25" loft between baffles. Our 30 degree bag has a baffle height of 1.75" but is filled with a calculated height of 2.3" (30% extra).

His loft heights are borrowed from backpackinglight.com:

http://www.zpacks.com/quilts/down_loft.shtml

[ULWalkingPhil]

I purchased two accessories from Zpacks for use on my Gossamer Gear Kumo Pack,

A multi-pack 4 in 1 and a couple shoulder pouches.

The multi-pack i have not tried on a overnight hike thus far, but I have worn it around town and on recent visit to seaworld and movieworld at the Gold Coast. Strapped around my waist, with very little weight inside, had my wallet and camera. Within a couple hours seams had started to come apart, now I would understand this if I had a lot of weight in it or I fastened the straps around my waist to tight, I can assure you this is not the case, i was very careful and made sure nothing was to tight. I also thought it was very roughly made. Very little quality in workmanship displayed.

The shoulder pouches are strange. Insert a 500ml bottle in the pouch and you cant fit anything in the front mesh pockets as the top is made to short, practically have to jam into to front mesh pocket. The elastic at the top is made to tight.

I been meaning to talk to Joe about this, but I have so much on of late.

[ULWalkingPhil]

I am guessing that this is not the norm for Zpacks. I don't know if Zoe personally make all the items or not, but who ever made the couple items I purchased did not do a very good job.

By the way, not a ambassador for gossamer gear, in the end they decided against having an ambassador in Australia, I was asked by Gossamer Gear if I wanted to be one of there ambassadors in a email they sent to me, i replied back I love to, but never heard back, i recently bought it up again with them but again no response received from my email enquiring about joining there ambassador program.

It is no secret that I do love Gossamer gear products.

[wayno]

zpacks work floor
sounds like they may have a quality control issue given the mixed reviews

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14531#p193076

[ULWalkingPhil]

zpacks work floor
sounds like they may have a quality control issue given the mixed reviews

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14531#p193076

Looks like his expanding, unfortunately quality control is not. At least not in my case.

I was keen on purchasing a backpack from them, but after seeing the items i purchased, decided against it. The multi-pack 4 in 1 is made of the same hybrid cuben his packs are made from. Watching the stitching coming apart on it makes me doubt investing in one of his packs.

Very happy with the Gossamer Gear packs I own now, there strong for the weight and very well made.

In regards to lightweight sleeping bags, I own and use a hammock gear 20F top quilt. It keeps me very warm all over, no issues with stuffing in that bag.

[wayno]

have you contacted zpacks about your issues?

[Orion]

Wayno, that was an interesting documentary, at least the part I watched. I had never heard of emissary foramina before or the "Radiator" theory of brain evolution. And that clip of a running naked woman was nice too. But does any of that change the 50% heat loss from the head at -4°C figure that Franco posted?


Phil -- What exactly was wrong with the seam? How did it fail?

Just for comparison, my GG pack tore on a seam the very first time I used it. I think it was a design flaw, a weak point that I corrected with my sewing machine. They've since changed that pack design.

[simonm]

I think any item we buy can have issues as it is made by humans. Sure it would be nice if there was never a problem but for me it is the response from the manufacturer that is the important part.

When I purchased my Enlightened Equipment quilt a while back there was an issue, but it was addressed so effectively by Tim I would have no problem recommending his quilts to anyone (even though I stock another brand of quilts). I was inconvenienced but that is not a major problem in the grand scheme of things. In the end with the EE quilt it turned out one of the people doing his sewing of the quilts was becoming a little creative with her problem solving, and Tim was really happy to stop what she was doing and make it clear it was unacceptable.

Phil - I suggest you contact Joe as I am sure most business owner's would like to know if there is a problem with their product.